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[smiling]

i just want to say here that yes, you can claim benefits and yes, there are probably some people who do take the pi** a bit...but really, anyone who has been on benefits for any longer amount of time will know how they treat you at the jobcentre and housing and all the other places you have to go and jump through hoops at to get those benefits. and that that's not really what anyone would choose to go for.
they treat you like you are something on the bottom of their shoe. like the fact that you need some help for a while until you can find a job, until you maybe come out of your depression, until whatever you need to do to support yourself becomes possible is just the most outrageous thing to ask.
sometimes i felt like the people working there were resentful that they had to sit there at their desk and i could "just come and sign and get the money". (when very often i had to watch them struggle with their computer programme and wanted to do it for them, cause they were SO SLOW).
it's not easy to find work that fits round wanting to look after your kid(s), that pays a reasonable wage etc. and i was not ready to never see my kid, except for a couple of hours two nights a week. so it took me a bit longer to find work.
does that make me a scrounger?
i don't think so.

[Silencio]

There are some graduates who earn good wages.  In my company that I work at, if you are a graduate you can come and work as a Manager and earn about 40k regardless of age.

Do you work for one of those dodgy companies from Gumtree which advertises to graduates then you find out it's actually not £40K... But you can unrealistically earn 'up to' £40K doing crappy sales and you have a basic wage of £13K? 

I haven't seen many graduate jobs I'd say are an amazing wage... I'm on around around £19K and I consider myself extremely lucky.

As has been mentioned, you can claim benefits when you're in low paid work. Stupidly, you can't get working tax credits until you're 25 which I don't get. 

There will always be people who take the mick outta everything. I know people who are in their twenties and who have never had a job. I think it's pathetic and they undermine the image of people who are claiming benefits because of genuine sickness, family commitment, or because they genuinely can't find suitable work. I think these people are in a minority. Most people on benefits are genuine.

It also shocked me when I went to university and some students I studied alongside were 21/22 and had never even had a part time job. I can't imagine that.

[chappers]

Red High Heels, I think you completely missed the point of my argument. It wasn't about the scroungers reaping all they can from the benefits system, but that minimum wage is seemingly unreasonably low. Surely it should be at a level that would deem it worth getting a job, and deem it better than being on benefits!

I am, however, glad you managed to turn your life around!

[Dubby]

Chappers, this link from the money savings expert website may be worth a browse.

[Old Brock]

RHH, thank you so much for telling us your potted life story. I think it really does help to illustrate the sorts of barriers that people face when they are on benefits too - and to show that it's absolutely not a case of being 'benefit scroungers', but about just about managing to survive and hold things together.

I think that's really relevant on this thread, because there have been a few mentions of people taking what they can from the system and having a great life, and of course (as anyone who has been ther knows) it just really isn't like that.

[Sarahhh]

I don't understand how having a minimum wage is a disgrace - or how it's this country's fault.  There are plenty of countries with no minimum wage, and no benefits.

Benefits are supposed to support people who earn below minimum wage.  It may be a tax issue, but it may also be that your partner is in a job that doesn't pay enough to sustain someone independently.  I know for a fact that the LSAs at my school earn a ridiculously low amount of money, and that it is the type of profession that only attracts people who were stay at home mum's and want to get back in to the work place or are earning and topping up their income with family tax credits.

I was a single parent from when Libby was 1 until she was 6.  I lived on income support until she went to full time school.  As soon as she was old enough I went to university. 

Income support, or any other type of benefit, is not meant to be anything more than a helping hand or a way to get people back on their feet.  I like that we don't let people starve in the streets. I am happy to pay towards benefits because for every 1 person who cheats the system, 50 families who need it are helped.  (I made up that figure, but I quite like it.  I'm probably too optimistic, but I refuse to consider I was the only person ever on benefits who did everything they could to get off them.)

[RHH]

I am, however, glad you managed to turn your life around!

*speechless*

I suspect it was meant well however.

[Zooey]

Chappers, I don't mean to have a go, but basically - life is hard, suck it up. Your fella should be glad he's got a job he likes which is ultimately giving him the opportunity to move on and up in life.

I earn a pretty decent wage now, but once I earnt 90 pounds a week. My rent inclusive of bills was 75 a week. Which left me with very little for food. It never occurred to me to apply for benefits - I just got a second job.

Obviously if your fella is working full time and doesn't feel able to get a second job. But put it this way - I earn a good wage, and work from about 7.30am to 7pm. I want to save up for a deposit for a house so I'm thinking of temping in the evenings. 'Cos I still can't afford it with my wage, and able to work longer, so I will if I have to. I want to have children in a couple of years, and won't be able to save so much then, so the time is now.

I don't wanna go on about, and be all patronising - but yeah, life is bloody hard and things suck, and you want to throw the towel in and have a tantrum about how unfair things are. But believe me, count your blessings and work upwards, telling yourself it won't be like this for long.

[Monkey]

^ That, every word!

[Moonie1]

I think there is a really important psychological aspect to having a job, no matter how low paid. I feel work helps moderate life.  It gets you out, you meet people, opens up opportunities.  However you can never know why someone is not working and therefore cannot judge them.  My gf is not able to work/study at present due to an injury and she gets really depressed not seeing her mates and not able to physically get out in the world.  It is a real punishment.

I think for me I would always prefer to do something even low paid and this I believe, is how most people are.  My dad was on the dole in the eighties and it was grim.  He and my mum have since worked all sorts of jobs, often earning below what they would have earned on benefits.  However they felt no matter how shit the job, it would open up opportunities, even by virtue of having some sort of continous employment history and it kept them sane. 

I feel really strongly about this topic possibly because of being brought up (not in the UK) in harsh times without tax credits etc.  I really appreciate what I have now but I think I will always live in fear of poverty as a result, no matter how well off I am.  I agree that no job should leave you less well off than being on benefits.  That just implys some sort of exploitation in our society somewhere along the line surely? Maybe thats just what we get with living in a capitalist society?  I dunno.

RHH - your post perfectly described the utter despair and disempowerment of poverty.

xxxx

[chappers]

I'd like to thank you all for your contributions to my obviously teenage upset.

I'd also like to call this matter closed, and I will be following up advice and links that have been put forward.

So long, and goodnight.

[pthbbbt]

chappers, I worked in england on close to minmum wage as a non-citizen. I didn't have rights to anything but private housing and no benefits. I had no money for transport. As in NONE.

Some jobs - and I personally think this is the issue - don't pay enough to live on. I know I couldn't. I had to steal food from work. And this was something I was trying to do in order to re-train for a new career.

for some reason, if you are involved with children or animals, it's expected that you 1) have parents to live with 2) are 17 and have a family support 3) can get income support from a husband or 3) collect some kind of extra benefits if all else fails.

those who don't have family or marital support are basically forgotton. which is a lot of people.

I'm am very sorry that he's having such a hard time. I've been there. It's hard when people tell you to "buck up" when basic minimum wage is making you steal food to f*cking live on and the tiny room you live in in a landlady's house cause you can't get council housing is rummaged through when you aren't home. People tell you to go home when you complain. And trying to explain that you left because the unemployment rate was %17 and climbing... completely falls on deaf ears. Suddenly you are told you are privedged enough to have a job you scabby foreigner.

minimum wage SUCKS. it's NOT enough to live on. I totally agree.

[super sonic gin and tonic]

It's so f*cking annoying how the op has manage to link disgracefully low wages with the so called 'benefit layabouts'. Sorry have I missed something? Oh yes it's their fault you can't actually live on minimum wage. It must be very difficult for them to be claiming benefits and laying around whilst being in government and boardrooms paying themselves megabucks whilst deciding what wages to give the rest of us so we can't actually live on them. I hope they don't get caught.

[Zooey]

You're right - it's not enough to live on. It does suck. That was the point of my post - you have to suck it up because you can either get on with things, or focus on how much it does suck and drives yourself nuts, or go on benefits and feel like you're better off - and I don't think anyone should be applauded for not going on the dole when they're capable of working. If he can stick it out for a while, it's only going to lead to bigger and better things, assuming he has ambition and plans, etc. I don't get why you're seething...yes it sucks but it's the way it is...it's a reality check.

A lot of us have been in Chapper's fella's position - I also used to steal food from work, and toilet paper, and make my own sanitary towels. I bought food from a shop that sold things cheaply because they were past their sell by date. I cried a lot. I hated it. I never went out. I was depressed and miserable. I have sympathy for your fella but there comes a point where you stop crying and get on with things.

But you know - life is f*cking tough and the minimum wage being so low is one of those tough things. And the other point of my post is that her fella should count his blessings because it is possible to move onwards and upwards...moving onto to better paid jobs, getting more experience, getting promoted...it all leads to a better quality of life. But he wouldn't be able to do that if he wasn't working. So yeah it's tough now, and it might be for a while but it won't always be like this.

I also think there is a massive mis-management of expectations for graduates...it seems like they've been led to believe the world owes them a moon on a stick. And you know...it just doesn't work like that. There are some people for whom the world seems to bend right into shape for them - and it sucks and it's unfair, but those people are in the vast minority. Christ there's a girl I work with - 6 years younger than me, just bought a 3-bed house in London because her parents gave her 60 grand for a deposit. I am sick with jealousy because I am really struggling to save up 10. But poor me, boohoo - you know? I can't say it enough - life is hard!

[super sonic gin and tonic]

Eh? Did I dispute life is hard? I agree that life is hard. My point was about having a needless pop at people on benefits. They tend to be the scapegoat of societies ills.