Author Topic: Oxford Union - Free Speech debate  (Read 8960 times)

super sonic gin and tonic

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Re: Oxford Union - Free Speech debate
« Reply #60 on: Nov 27, 2007, 10:20:50 PM »
Griffin and Irvin are hardened Fascist. Fascist are not know as great defenders of democracy. Historically, Fascism have closed any democratic institution, executed jews, blacks, gays, socialist, liberals. Bauhaus as well as other major educational instututes were closed under the nazi's . History informs  us of this, Why give these fascists any access to democracy when it is clear when they had power they would seek to destroy it  ???


But that is what democracy is about.  If the majority of people in this country want fascist and undemocratic leadership then that is what should happen.

I have a completely different view of democracy than you. National Socialism came to power in exactly the same way you describe.History informs me that Irvin and Griffin are no different to the art student Hitler, Gobbles and other National Socialist (Nazi's)  I do not believe that those most opposed to democracy, ideas and diverse culture should be extended the democracy that enables me and other's like me to exist. It's like inviting a known arsonist into my home and handing them a box of matches
Hrm...I disagree on this.

I think that we have learnt a lot from history (albeit not enough) and people these days have a greater access to resources in the UK than ever before (although this is also debatable and of course, arguably not exactly equal).

For example, pre-Nazi Germany was in an economic depression. The country had been pretty screwed up by the first war. As much as I don't support how this country attained its wealth and as much as I'm a socialist (but in no way do I identify with Nationalism as some do) I think that in many ways the disorganised capitalist system will prevent any fascists from ever gaining control.

I put those words in bold

wtf?? Socialists are not facists... national socialists are... two very different creatures..

Some people I've met identify as socialists but also hold nationalist values.

Socialism does not have to mean egalitarianism. It is about distribution of wealth and resources amongst other things. It's just that a lot of socialist movements today realise that capitalism can also be tied in with racism and sex discrimination.

ETA: I would say some of the BNP's policies are socialist

Glitch.. Yes BNP's policies are NATIONAL socialism... they are fascists, like the Nazis...
Socialism is not nationalistic, national socialism is.. that is why they have different names.. Don't confuse the two..
And socialism has always theorised that capitalism creates the conditions ripe for racism and sexism.

Offline Ocean

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Re: Oxford Union - Free Speech debate
« Reply #61 on: Nov 27, 2007, 10:21:51 PM »
Yes but you're willingly inviting them in, aren't you?
It's your decision, no one's forcing it upon you in the same way that a minority of radicalists can't bring their leaders into power and force everyone to live under their rules.

sometimes power is 'democratically' fought for and won -  - south africa is prime example of this - and were able to hold onto power - play with constituency boundaries  -  throw in some propagandda - how about a little censorship - and hey presto - 50 years of atrocities -


Shanti

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Re: Oxford Union - Free Speech debate
« Reply #62 on: Nov 27, 2007, 10:35:52 PM »
Griffin and Irvin are hardened Fascist. Fascist are not know as great defenders of democracy. Historically, Fascism have closed any democratic institution, executed jews, blacks, gays, socialist, liberals. Bauhaus as well as other major educational instututes were closed under the nazi's . History informs  us of this, Why give these fascists any access to democracy when it is clear when they had power they would seek to destroy it  ???


But that is what democracy is about.  If the majority of people in this country want fascist and undemocratic leadership then that is what should happen.

I have a completely different view of democracy than you. National Socialism came to power in exactly the same way you describe.History informs me that Irvin and Griffin are no different to the art student Hitler, Gobbles and other National Socialist (Nazi's)  I do not believe that those most opposed to democracy, ideas and diverse culture should be extended the democracy that enables me and other's like me to exist. It's like inviting a known arsonist into my home and handing them a box of matches
Hrm...I disagree on this.

I think that we have learnt a lot from history (albeit not enough) and people these days have a greater access to resources in the UK than ever before (although this is also debatable and of course, arguably not exactly equal).

For example, pre-Nazi Germany was in an economic depression. The country had been pretty screwed up by the first war. As much as I don't support how this country attained its wealth and as much as I'm a socialist (but in no way do I identify with Nationalism as some do) I think that in many ways the disorganised capitalist system will prevent any fascists from ever gaining control.

I put those words in bold

wtf?? Socialists are not facists... national socialists are... two very different creatures..

Some people I've met identify as socialists but also hold nationalist values.

Socialism does not have to mean egalitarianism. It is about distribution of wealth and resources amongst other things. It's just that a lot of socialist movements today realise that capitalism can also be tied in with racism and sex discrimination.

ETA: I would say some of the BNP's policies are socialist

Glitch.. Yes BNP's policies are NATIONAL socialism... they are fascists, like the Nazis...
Socialism is not nationalistic, national socialism is.. that is why they have different names.. Don't confuse the two..
And socialism has always theorised that capitalism creates the conditions ripe for racism and sexism.
I would not go so far as to say the BNP are National Socialists as a party, not in their policies. I don't think they're extreme enough.

Tbh I see socialism as something entirely economic. There are liberal ideologies compatible with socialism, but there are also right wing ideologies compatible with it. It focusses on the means of production, not equality between different groups of people socially.
« Last Edit: Nov 27, 2007, 10:40:19 PM by Glitch »

venus_orbiting

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Re: Oxford Union - Free Speech debate
« Reply #63 on: Nov 27, 2007, 10:40:19 PM »
Only Fools and Equestrians grew up in My Mother's House

super sonic gin and tonic

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Re: Oxford Union - Free Speech debate
« Reply #64 on: Nov 27, 2007, 10:40:34 PM »
Griffin and Irvin are hardened Fascist. Fascist are not know as great defenders of democracy. Historically, Fascism have closed any democratic institution, executed jews, blacks, gays, socialist, liberals. Bauhaus as well as other major educational instututes were closed under the nazi's . History informs  us of this, Why give these fascists any access to democracy when it is clear when they had power they would seek to destroy it  ???


But that is what democracy is about.  If the majority of people in this country want fascist and undemocratic leadership then that is what should happen.

I have a completely different view of democracy than you. National Socialism came to power in exactly the same way you describe.History informs me that Irvin and Griffin are no different to the art student Hitler, Gobbles and other National Socialist (Nazi's)  I do not believe that those most opposed to democracy, ideas and diverse culture should be extended the democracy that enables me and other's like me to exist. It's like inviting a known arsonist into my home and handing them a box of matches
Hrm...I disagree on this.

I think that we have learnt a lot from history (albeit not enough) and people these days have a greater access to resources in the UK than ever before (although this is also debatable and of course, arguably not exactly equal).

For example, pre-Nazi Germany was in an economic depression. The country had been pretty screwed up by the first war. As much as I don't support how this country attained its wealth and as much as I'm a socialist (but in no way do I identify with Nationalism as some do) I think that in many ways the disorganised capitalist system will prevent any fascists from ever gaining control.

I put those words in bold

wtf?? Socialists are not facists... national socialists are... two very different creatures..

Some people I've met identify as socialists but also hold nationalist values.

Socialism does not have to mean egalitarianism. It is about distribution of wealth and resources amongst other things. It's just that a lot of socialist movements today realise that capitalism can also be tied in with racism and sex discrimination.

ETA: I would say some of the BNP's policies are socialist

Glitch.. Yes BNP's policies are NATIONAL socialism... they are fascists, like the Nazis...
Socialism is not nationalistic, national socialism is.. that is why they have different names.. Don't confuse the two..
And socialism has always theorised that capitalism creates the conditions ripe for racism and sexism.
I would not go so far as to say the BNP are National Socialists as a party, not in their policies. I don't think they're extreme enough.



well, as you said some of their policies are socialist and they have Nationalist in their name... that's as near as dammit I'd say..

Offline Ocean

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Re: Oxford Union - Free Speech debate
« Reply #65 on: Nov 27, 2007, 10:40:54 PM »
I would not go so far as to say the BNP are National Socialists as a party, not in their policies. I don't think they're extreme enough.


which policy of their's do you believe is not extreme enough? -

Shanti

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Re: Oxford Union - Free Speech debate
« Reply #66 on: Nov 27, 2007, 10:47:13 PM »
Griffin and Irvin are hardened Fascist. Fascist are not know as great defenders of democracy. Historically, Fascism have closed any democratic institution, executed jews, blacks, gays, socialist, liberals. Bauhaus as well as other major educational instututes were closed under the nazi's . History informs  us of this, Why give these fascists any access to democracy when it is clear when they had power they would seek to destroy it  ???


But that is what democracy is about.  If the majority of people in this country want fascist and undemocratic leadership then that is what should happen.

I have a completely different view of democracy than you. National Socialism came to power in exactly the same way you describe.History informs me that Irvin and Griffin are no different to the art student Hitler, Gobbles and other National Socialist (Nazi's)  I do not believe that those most opposed to democracy, ideas and diverse culture should be extended the democracy that enables me and other's like me to exist. It's like inviting a known arsonist into my home and handing them a box of matches
Hrm...I disagree on this.

I think that we have learnt a lot from history (albeit not enough) and people these days have a greater access to resources in the UK than ever before (although this is also debatable and of course, arguably not exactly equal).

For example, pre-Nazi Germany was in an economic depression. The country had been pretty screwed up by the first war. As much as I don't support how this country attained its wealth and as much as I'm a socialist (but in no way do I identify with Nationalism as some do) I think that in many ways the disorganised capitalist system will prevent any fascists from ever gaining control.

I put those words in bold

wtf?? Socialists are not facists... national socialists are... two very different creatures..

Some people I've met identify as socialists but also hold nationalist values.

Socialism does not have to mean egalitarianism. It is about distribution of wealth and resources amongst other things. It's just that a lot of socialist movements today realise that capitalism can also be tied in with racism and sex discrimination.

ETA: I would say some of the BNP's policies are socialist

Glitch.. Yes BNP's policies are NATIONAL socialism... they are fascists, like the Nazis...
Socialism is not nationalistic, national socialism is.. that is why they have different names.. Don't confuse the two..
And socialism has always theorised that capitalism creates the conditions ripe for racism and sexism.
I would not go so far as to say the BNP are National Socialists as a party, not in their policies. I don't think they're extreme enough.



well, as you said some of their policies are socialist and they have Nationalist in their name... that's as near as dammit I'd say..
Yeah, but there are varying degrees of nationalism. Nationalism doesn't have to mean fascism. Nationalism is about your country and your heritage and what you believe your country's interests are. Fascism is far more aggressive and usually has elements of nationalism, but is about authoritarianism. Basically everybody and everything is subordinate to the interests of your ruler.

I don't think the BNP are really neo-Nazis these days. However, C18 are.

venus_orbiting

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Re: Oxford Union - Free Speech debate
« Reply #67 on: Nov 27, 2007, 10:53:18 PM »
Do any of these contemporary parties policies suggest genocide as the only alternative to self-sufficiency as a geographical district? If so, I think they're outdated but of interesting
historical value? What are the only British National disenlists saying this election anyway?

super sonic gin and tonic

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Re: Oxford Union - Free Speech debate
« Reply #68 on: Nov 27, 2007, 10:54:41 PM »
Hmm combat 18, and BNP and NF... All in each others pockets I'd say.. or do you see the BNP as being the equivilant of combat 18's gentlemen's club?

To be honest I never ever want to know what BNP's policies would be if they ever were to be in power... they are pernicious, and prey on desperation, they are foul and calculating human beings..

Peyton

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Re: Oxford Union - Free Speech debate
« Reply #69 on: Nov 27, 2007, 10:57:09 PM »
Yes but you're willingly inviting them in, aren't you?
It's your decision, no one's forcing it upon you in the same way that a minority of radicalists can't bring their leaders into power and force everyone to live under their rules.

sometimes power is 'democratically' fought for and won -  - south africa is prime example of this - and were able to hold onto power - play with constituency boundaries  -  throw in some propagandda - how about a little censorship - and hey presto - 50 years of atrocities -



Any political party could do this - if, say, the BNP were to try and democratically gain power by toning down their views to gain votes, people would still be aware of their previous record and no doubt would think twice about whether they really wanted to vote for them.

Shanti

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Re: Oxford Union - Free Speech debate
« Reply #70 on: Nov 27, 2007, 11:01:59 PM »
I would not go so far as to say the BNP are National Socialists as a party, not in their policies. I don't think they're extreme enough.


which policy of their's do you believe is not extreme enough? -
It's really tempting to compare Griffin with Hitler (aren't there like seveal National Socialist movements anyway? Tbh, have only looked at Hitler and the BNP), but I don't think they're the same. Being a racist or xenophobe does not make you a nazi it makes you an asshole lol... Of course that's only my opinion.

But there are a fair few differences.

I think that the BNP do have some far right policies which most people would not like to see put in place. For example corporal and capital punishment, anti-immigration laws, national service... But to compare them to the Nazis... Well apart from being racist they're quite different.

Of course I'm talking about the party, not individuals in the party many of whom are thugs.

Shanti

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Re: Oxford Union - Free Speech debate
« Reply #71 on: Nov 27, 2007, 11:13:57 PM »
Hmm combat 18, and BNP and NF... All in each others pockets I'd say.. or do you see the BNP as being the equivilant of combat 18's gentlemen's club?
Personally?

I think the BNP used to be the National Front didn't they? Or they split or something. C18 are definitely neo-Nazi, I think National Front are just more extreme than the BNP.

Don't know how close they are today (maybe somebody else does? It would be interesting... But then waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off topic  :-\)

Quote
To be honest I never ever want to know what BNP's policies would be if they ever were to be in power... they are pernicious, and prey on desperation, they are foul and calculating human beings..
Yeah I agree... But then so are RESPECT (or were, they've split now innit), but in a different way.

It would be interesting if they ever got in. They probably would go more right wing... But do you think they'd really go so far as Hitler did?

venus_orbiting

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Re: Oxford Union - Free Speech debate
« Reply #72 on: Nov 28, 2007, 12:08:02 AM »
Didn' Hitler have amphetamine psycho Eva the aerobics instructor weren't they assassinated how the fk did all those people starve was it the sensor ship in their propaganda machine oo what a bunch of scary words old dudes genocide influenza hunger strike recycling hang on don't jews eat babies in the first world war did we get the story right, hang on I'll just ask my Aunty she was there oh no she only speaks German and I can't learn that at school cos I'm too busy being tested to learn too many languages and anyway the BNP don't offer it on the official, screened, evaluated, substantiated CURRICULAM VITEYE
« Last Edit: Dec 03, 2007, 09:26:07 PM by Park Lane »

Offline Max71

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Re: Oxford Union - Free Speech debate
« Reply #73 on: Nov 28, 2007, 12:33:50 AM »
In answer to the poll question.  Yes.
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