Author Topic: Conscientious objection?  (Read 795 times)

Offline Top

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Conscientious objection?
« on: Jun 14, 2018, 09:01:21 PM »
As youíll, no doubt, be aware, the 8th amendment which gave an equal right to life to pregnant woman and foetus has been repealed. When we have referendums in Ireland, which we do quite often, we get a little official booklet from the government telling us in detail what weíre actually voting for (itís a great idea, I can highly recommend it) but it canít cover all eventualities.

Some doctors are now saying that they donít really fancy dispensing medical abortion meds and would like a conscientious opt out, like in GB. Iíve having a bit of a nosey round and it seems that such an opt out is a Eng/Scot/Wales thing only, nowhere else in Europe has it.

Part of me doesnít think that anyone should have to compromise their morals but Iím also aware that hotel owners, cake bakers and registry office worker, donít get a moral opt out on serving the gays and itís probably more important not to be pregnant when you donít want to be than to be gay married or have a gay cake.

What do you think, false equivalency or just the same?
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chkdsk /f D:

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Re: Conscientious objection?
« Reply #1 on: Jun 14, 2018, 09:49:44 PM »
Funny you should ask.

I'm in the middle of a long job going through files and chucking out papers. Today it was the Jewish ethics file, which took ages as I had to read quite a lot before deciding what to keep. One article I read, now in the recycling bin, was about why orthodox Jews are obligated to support the rights of people who behave in ways that are contrary to orthodox Judaism, such as supporting campaigns in defence of people sacked because they are gay. It continued, in the usual, exhaustive manner with other examples of why it is against self interest to pick and choose varieties of discrimination.

I didn't finish the article so they may have also mentioned the law which supersedes the analysis which is dina de malkhuta dina, the law of the land is the law which means, usually but not always, that the law of the country must be obeyed even if it contradicts Jewish law. It's a basic principal, argued about and well known because of the number of times it's discussed.

For both these reasons, I'd say your comparison is valid and the doctors and other medical people have to get on with it and do their jobs, or find a different job.

Incidentally, both my reasons avoid having to parcel out degrees of importance, gay cakes versus abortions doesn't seem a fruitful way to go.

Offline Wolfgang

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Re: Conscientious objection?
« Reply #2 on: Jun 14, 2018, 10:40:21 PM »
HmÖ  Abortion medication dispensation opt-outs, no. Performing surgical abortions can largely be opted out of by not pursuing that specialty.
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Offline Top

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Re: Conscientious objection?
« Reply #3 on: Jun 14, 2018, 10:56:38 PM »
HmÖ  Abortion medication dispensation opt-outs, no. Performing surgical abortions can largely be opted out of by not pursuing that specialty.

I should have mentioned that there are general practitioners, while surgical abortions do happen there are comparatively rare now as they tend to be carried out later on foetuses with FFA, which people tend to have less of a moral objection to, which I donít understand, to be honest.
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Offline Lyco

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Re: Conscientious objection?
« Reply #4 on: Jun 14, 2018, 11:02:24 PM »
I think you donít get to opt out.

Which is very black and white I know and Iím always standing up for people who follow their principles but...

In medicine I donít think itís appropriate to apply your morals in your practice when it means withholding treatment. A medic wouldnít and shouldnít refuse to treat a drink driver injured in an accident for instance and no one thinks drink driving is a good thing.

So no, they shouldnít get to opt out.

Offline Top

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Re: Conscientious objection?
« Reply #5 on: Jun 14, 2018, 11:02:42 PM »
For both these reasons, I'd say your comparison is valid and the doctors and other medical people have to get on with it and do their jobs, or find a different job.

Thatís the problem, itís not actually the law yet, nothing has been decided. If we go for the GB model there will be an opt out but if we follow most of the rest of the world, there wonít be.

Oddly, in Northern Ireland where the Abortion Act has never been law, medics take advantage of the opt out clause in it to refuse the morning after pill and the copper coil. They sort of have their cake and eat it up there, while refusing to make gay cake.
I'm reporting you to the mods for annoying me to the point where I become ill and have to take tranquillisers.  - Wolfie

chkdsk /f D:

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Re: Conscientious objection?
« Reply #6 on: Jun 14, 2018, 11:17:19 PM »
I didn't realise that.

I'd like some opt out clauses too, in that case. I'd have preferred to refuse to make rich people richer and would have felt morally cleaner for being able to refuse.

The short answer is I agree with Lyco, it's not a profession to be in if you want opt out clauses.

Offline Wolfgang

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Re: Conscientious objection?
« Reply #7 on: Jun 14, 2018, 11:45:00 PM »
HmÖ  Abortion medication dispensation opt-outs, no. Performing surgical abortions can largely be opted out of by not pursuing that specialty.

I should have mentioned that there are general practitioners, while surgical abortions do happen there are comparatively rare now.

Exactly, if you're a GP it's not compatible with opt-outs.   

My dad is a lapsed Catholic but the boarding schools do seem to inculcate an ethicism which survives that.  He was telling me recently about an old BMA euthanasia vote, that doctors could vote on whether it should be allowed and separately on whether they would be willing to do it as doctors.  But he said, which I respect, since he said yes, then it must be yes, they're inextricable.


EBI
« Last Edit: Jun 14, 2018, 11:57:35 PM by Wolfgang »
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Offline Top

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Re: Conscientious objection?
« Reply #8 on: Jun 15, 2018, 12:25:44 AM »
Itís £136 for the results, can you ask him what the disparity was. Heís obviously right but I donít expects that everyone got that.
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Offline Wolfgang

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Re: Conscientious objection?
« Reply #9 on: Jun 15, 2018, 12:41:07 AM »
I'm not sure which vote?   Dude's been retired for 20 years.
I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong that transwomen aren't shouting at me to suck their balls. - Hhayt

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Re: Conscientious objection?
« Reply #10 on: Jun 15, 2018, 01:16:50 AM »
The discrepancy between how many voted in favour of assisted dying and how many were willing to do the deed?
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Offline Wolfgang

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Re: Conscientious objection?
« Reply #11 on: Jun 15, 2018, 01:39:41 AM »
I don't know which year, could be 1976 or something. This was the solitary conversation I had in 2017 and it seems to have scared him more than it scared me, soÖ  :D
I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong that transwomen aren't shouting at me to suck their balls. - Hhayt

Offline Musette

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Re: Conscientious objection?
« Reply #12 on: Jun 15, 2018, 01:48:04 AM »
I didn't know GPs here had an opt-out! I don't think NHS GPs should be allowed to pick and choose. If they feel that can't do some of it then either specialise in an area where it doesn't arise, or go into private practice.
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Offline Top

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Re: Conscientious objection?
« Reply #13 on: Jun 15, 2018, 09:28:12 AM »
I didn't know GPs here had an opt-out! I don't think NHS GPs should be allowed to pick and choose. If they feel that can't do some of it then either specialise in an area where it doesn't arise, or go into private practice.

The abortion pill isnít given out in general practice in GB but GPs can refuse to refer to an abortion clinic and refuse to prescribe contraception like the MAP and copper coils which can stop a zygot implanting.

Someone on MN said that their GP refused to prescribe any contraception at all, using the abortion opt out.
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Offline Musette

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Re: Conscientious objection?
« Reply #14 on: Jun 15, 2018, 10:14:17 AM »
^ did not know that and find it pretty shocking, tbh.
"U r a multifaceted dark horse. Oh yes you are..."

a wise and helpful soul, Musette  ;D