Author Topic: Women's safety in prisons.  (Read 3067 times)

Offline Top

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Re: Women's safety in prisons.
« Reply #75 on: Jun 08, 2018, 12:10:49 AM »
You may well be. I've no idea.

That would be the proportionate means to a legitimate end exemption that Stonewall are seeking to get rid of and which you said wasn't happening. And even called us stupid for suspecting.

Now, a couple of times youíve now made claims about what Stonewall is trying to do or not do. You claimed in the other thread that Stonewall was writing the proposed amendments to the GRA and got very aggressive when I pointed out that it was unlikely.

I think Stonewall do sterling work but Iím not a representative of the organisation. Personally, Iíve no problems with that clause of the phrasing of that part of the GRA, I like the case by case basis aspect, it stops blanket bans on trans people and I like that any exclusion has to be proportionate. I havenít ever argued against it.



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Offline Top

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Re: Women's safety in prisons.
« Reply #76 on: Jun 08, 2018, 12:13:52 AM »
Once again. Women advocating for violent and/or sex offenders to be allowed into the women's estate. Placing the feelings of a bunch of reprehensibles above the safety of women. The most vulnerable women in society, thrown under the bus so that a few mentally ill or delusional men can experience validation. It's extraordinary. These blokes must be laughing their tits off.

Iím not actually. I donít think that anyone should be let into the womanís estate without a full risk assessment, as happens now. I also think that the management of prisons should be left to professionals, not rank amateurs with an axe to grind.

I think that they seem to be doing a pretty good job in what are, undoubtedly difficult circumstances, They should get less political interference, not more.
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Offline Betty Croker

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Re: Women's safety in prisons.
« Reply #77 on: Jun 08, 2018, 12:15:47 AM »
You've just mixed up the GRA and the Equality Act. The thing you call us stupid for. And you've confused me with someone else.

So I'm not engaging. Stomp around all you like.

And now I know how Joan of Arc felt.......

Offline Slantrhyme

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Re: Women's safety in prisons.
« Reply #78 on: Jun 08, 2018, 12:16:03 AM »
 Top, body shaming? Really? Not cool.
 Walk away for a bit. Itíll still be here when you get back. 
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Offline Top

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Re: Women's safety in prisons.
« Reply #79 on: Jun 08, 2018, 12:28:26 AM »
Top, body shaming? Really? Not cool.
 Walk away for a bit. Itíll still be here when you get back.

It was clothes shaming actually and I totally stand by it but thanks for the advice.  :)
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Offline Slantrhyme

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Re: Women's safety in prisons.
« Reply #80 on: Jun 08, 2018, 12:36:50 AM »
 If you imply body shaming, Iím going to infer body shaming.
 Choose your words more carefully, or even better, refrain from the vicious personal attacks,cos it looks like the pits.
 Thatís my last word on the subject 
 
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Offline Wolfgang

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Re: Women's safety in prisons.
« Reply #81 on: Jun 08, 2018, 12:52:21 AM »
There's been plenty of low shots all round.  I assume everyone's letting off steam before making their way back up the asshat triangle.
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Offline Lust for Life

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Re: Women's safety in prisons.
« Reply #82 on: Jun 08, 2018, 01:05:25 AM »

ďVPís are almost exclusively sex offenders or alleged sex offenders who are awaiting trial or in rare cases, informers. Iíve come across trans women in sex Offender establishments but always serving for a sex offence. Itís possible any prisoner could be placed anywhere but iin my opinion, tís a strange risk assessment that finds a female presenting prisoner is safest living amongst male rapists.


While your anecdote is fascinating, itís not evidence.

Self harm is the biggest and most avoidable risk to women inmates. Itís endemic. I know that Iíve talked about it at length on all of the other threads about women in prison that weíve had on GB over the years becasue weíre all so concerned about women in prison.

Oh wait, no sorry, that was somewhere else. No one mentioned women in prison here until it became a trans things.


Not a debate as such, but I have, several times, bumped a thread about OU research into lesbian experience of women's prisons (as either inmate or prison officer). Because I am concerned about women in prison, and because I support the OU and hold their research and courses in high regard.

Offline Madge Hooks

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Re: Women's safety in prisons.
« Reply #83 on: Jun 08, 2018, 01:08:50 AM »
If you imply body shaming, Iím going to infer body shaming.
 Choose your words more carefully, or even better, refrain from the vicious personal attacks,cos it looks like the pits.
 Thatís my last word on the subject

Good.

Offline Top

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Re: Women's safety in prisons.
« Reply #84 on: Jun 08, 2018, 01:17:15 AM »
Not a debate as such, but I have, several times, bumped a thread about OU research into lesbian experience of women's prisons (as either inmate or prison officer). Because I am concerned about women in prison, and because I support the OU and hold their research and courses in high regard.

Thatís fair enough and Iím happy to be corrected. However, there is a bit of a trend to mention topics that are, otherwise, ignored when it comes to talking about trans people and a sort of concern trolling around people who are usually shown very little concern or consideration. Oddly, lesbians not prisoners rate highest in the league table for this, people who have totally ignored lesbains and the lesbain experience are, all of a sudden, telling me to Think of The Lesbians, they are bring cotton ceilinged, doncha know.

People who have otherwise, not being overly sensitive to the needs of religious people are also using them as a kind of bashing tool, women whoíd be (rightly) outraged to be excluded from anything on the grounds of religious sensibilities are suddenly demanding single sex spaces on behalf of religious women, not appreciating that itís something that cuts both ways.
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Offline Betty Croker

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Re: Women's safety in prisons.
« Reply #85 on: Sep 07, 2018, 05:45:07 PM »
So now its been demonstrated that concern about trans identifying inmates trying to transfer into the female from the male estate is not transphobic scaremongering.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-45436953

At the cost of the women at HMP New Hall in Wakefield being sexually assaulted by this transwoman with a history of committing child sexual abuse who has previously perpetrated at least 3 rapes.

How can trans activists still say there is no risk to women or that the interests of the person identifying as female should override the safety of other women?

And how come its the BBC, Telegraph and the Sun that are reporting this? I can't see anything in the left / centre left papers.

Surely its relevant to the GRC consultation thats going on?

By the way, all trans inmates do not have risk assessments as is being widely claimed. The transwomen with GRC's are automatically entitled to be in the female estate as a default position. It can be overridden if security is not high enough to manage them. But it is the default option.

This case happened under the older softer rules. If anyone can just id for a GRC this is going to be so much more unmanagable because if there is any place where it is a real advantage to have a Gender Recognition Certificate it's inside prison.

« Last Edit: Sep 07, 2018, 06:03:55 PM by Betty Croker »
And now I know how Joan of Arc felt.......

Offline Turph

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Re: Women's safety in prisons.
« Reply #86 on: Sep 07, 2018, 08:39:02 PM »

Offline Betty Croker

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Re: Women's safety in prisons.
« Reply #87 on: Sep 10, 2018, 01:11:38 AM »
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/scottish-news/3181313/carlos-delacruz-falkirk-fake-willy-prison-male/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

I have to point out that the law referred to in this article is Scots law not English and Welsh law. Scotland has an entirely different legal system including how it accomodates prisoners.

In England this prisoner would have gone to a female jail unless they had a Gender Recognition Certificate or applied to go to a male sex offender jail - which is extremely unlikely. Apparently no female to male transgendered person has ever applied to go to a male jail in England and Wales. Which is very telling. And why there would be so much traffic the other way.

I looked at this and my first thought was the hips. But lesbians and gays get used to spotting the nuanced differences between the sexes.

So called "stealth sex" is just wrong in my opinion. Discuss.
And now I know how Joan of Arc felt.......

Offline Slantrhyme

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Re: Women's safety in prisons.
« Reply #88 on: Sep 10, 2018, 02:31:50 PM »
 Informed consent cannot be given unless the person knows exactly who and what they are having sex with. Thatís it really.  Anything less, or the mere suggestion that anything less is required is a massive violation of sexual boundaries, and should be treated as such. Nobody has the right to expect sex with someone who doesnít give, or is denied the opportunity to give their full consent. Getting your end away is not a human right.   
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Offline hellohowareyoutoday

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Re: Women's safety in prisons.
« Reply #89 on: Sep 10, 2018, 05:04:26 PM »
Does that mean that in order to give informed consent, I have to know everything I consider important in a sexual partner? To you gender is important, but what if to me a more pertinent consideration is whether the person has never eaten foie gras or smoked a cigarette? What if they don't reveal that to me before we have sex?

I do agree though that I would want to know someone is trans before sleeping with them, because it seems like an important facet of their lived experience, and openness facilitates intimacy. It is something I would have to give a lot of thought to and assess my feelings about it. Everyone is allowed to choose their sexual partners based on whatever reasoning they like. I'm not saying their reasoning is always correct or sound or whatever, but it's their choice alone.