Author Topic: How far does your sexuality stretch?  (Read 40018 times)

Offline two monkeys

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #810 on: May 18, 2018, 02:26:41 PM »
Do you have access to the stats of % women, v % m2f trans (since that appears to be what we are discussing), who have been convicted of violent crimes against women, or sexual crimes towards children, and are they comparable?

Yes and no. There is the  Swedish study I posted about earlier in the thread, which gives more detail. Hereís what the author of the study said,

The individual in the image who is making claims about trans criminality, specifically rape likelihood, is misrepresenting the study findings. The study as a whole covers the period between 1973 and 2003. If one divides the cohort into two groups, 1973 to 1988 and 1989 to 2003, one observes that for the latter group (1989Ė2003), differences in mortality, suicide attempts and crime disappear. This means that for the 1989 to 2003 group, we did not find a male pattern of criminality.

The difference we observed between the 1989 to 2003 cohort and the control group is that the trans cohort group accessed more mental health care, which is appropriate given the level of ongoing discrimination the group faces. What the data tells us is that things are getting measurably better and the issues we found affecting the 1973 to 1988 cohort group likely reflects a time when trans health and psychological care was less effective and social stigma was far worse.


Links are in the previous post.


That's the single study I meant, 2 Monks.
http://transcrimeuk.com/about-this-site-2/

Thanks. I did come across it afterwards.

The time frame of the study is 1973-2003 and appears to have been published in Feb 2011- http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

This is the conclusion she came to...

Conclusion

This study found substantially higher rates of overall mortality, death from cardiovascular disease and suicide, suicide attempts, and psychiatric hospitalisations in sex-reassigned transsexual individuals compared to a healthy control population. This highlights that post surgical transsexuals are a risk group that need long-term psychiatric and somatic follow-up. Even though surgery and hormonal therapy alleviates gender dysphoria, it is apparently not sufficient to remedy the high rates of morbidity and mortality found among transsexual persons. Improved care for the transsexual group after the sex reassignment should therefore be considered.


The quote in your post is from a trans activist website and the author of the study is a professional working in the sector. If you're actually interested in whether data is weighted or not then you should possibly discount it and take your data from the initial paper where although she does make some passing reference to distinct time periods she does not do so in her conclusion. If there was such a notable change in the statistics from the period of1973-1989 and 1989-2003 it would be an extremely important finding which should have been made very clear but she has failed to do so in the published paper instead repeating what she herself has proved to be untrue.



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Offline Slantrhyme

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #811 on: May 18, 2018, 02:46:07 PM »
Ok, we give it a go, there is a small increase in sexual violence against women in women only spaces which will be ignored, because you know, violence against women and that, but then something truly awful happens thereís a massive public scandal. Until this point comparatively few people even knew about the gender recognition act, but  now they do and  there is a massive public outcry like there was over say Windrush or Soham. What of the lives of transpeople then? And what is the country going to think of a piece of legislation that was put through without any serious consultation or evaluation of the risks involved?
 Would it not be more sensible to put the brakes on, collect and collate all the necessary data, have a thorough rigourous risk assessment, consult with *all* stakeholders, then make a decision when all the evidence is out on the table for everyone to see?
     
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Offline two monkeys

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #812 on: May 18, 2018, 02:53:42 PM »
^ indeed.

It should also be noted that the trans cohort in the study mentioned before were in receipt of medical care and psychiatric support whereas the issue most of us are having is the notion of men self id-ing without checks and balances.

The time period 1973-2003 ie before the advent of Facebook\Twitter etc is also worth noting. It would be extremely naive to overlook the power of social media in this matter, most especially the effect on vulnerable children.

I read a recent Tavistock stat which said that last year 1500 girls were referred to them and of those more that 50% identified as same sex attracted. That's a lot of little lesbians.

If we give weight in the conversation to the negative impact of transphobia then we should give equal weight to the negative impact of homophobia and misogyny and how that might act on descisions made by vulnerable children.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 02:55:36 PM by two monkeys »
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Offline Slantrhyme

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #813 on: May 18, 2018, 03:41:13 PM »
 Absolutely Two Monks, if we want to advance as a society then we need to be breaking down these rigid gender stereotypes and negative attitudes towards homosexuality. This just looks like a way to reinforce heteronormative gender and reinforce toxic masculinity to me.
 Also, if we demedicalise the GRA, what of all the transpeople who require psychiatric intervention? A lot is known about the comorbidity of gender dysphoria with other psychiatric conditions, such as depression, and the suicide rate amongst transsexuals remains the same after transition,   so if a GD diagnosis is no longer required to get a GRC, what happens to all the people who would have been in the MH system and received treatment? As someone whoís been in the mental health system and knows how bloody difficult it is to get treatment, Iím thinking that with a diagnosis of GD no longer necessary, people are going to slip through the net.  Wishful thinking is not going to fly on this one. MH services are so stretched that The bar is so high for treatment that what they do offer  only tends to kick in after crisis point has been reached.       
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Offline Betty Croker

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #814 on: May 18, 2018, 04:46:35 PM »

I don't disagree with you but I'm finding every rational argument, every bit of data that's put forward for consideration to evaluate the potential risk to women is being dismissed as motivated by irrational prejudice rather than by an obvious need to make a thorough assessment. There are some people who are openly hostile and demonising on the closing down of debate side and on the need for debate side. To kick every rational fact or data set that contradicts what one would prefer to believe, out of bed because you can point to someone in stripey tights and a balaclava screaming for blood, is not the way. Edited to say but then I know, you personally, know that so my remark is meant more widely.
But when all is said and done, what other option do we have except to try it and see what happens?

Ha ha. As Slanty says - why require all this robust statistical data to prove women are detrimentally effected by the proposals and then just have a "Ah, What the hell, let's just suck it and see" approach to going ahead without doing the necessary due diligence?

There are lot of forms an amended GRA could take that fall in between "long drawn out and over-bureaucratic" and pure self ID. Its the latter we're concerned about not the proposal for any amendments.
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Offline Lyco

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #815 on: May 18, 2018, 05:48:58 PM »
There are two distinct things being discussed in this thread. The changes to the GRC and transwomen's access to women's spaces. But the first is a Trojan Horse to discuss the second.

Currently, to get a GRC, a trans person has to fill out an exhaustive form and provide a huge amount of evidence, including proof they have lived in their preferred gender for two years, including official documentation, payslips, doctor/dentist evidence, utility bills, bank statements etc. etc. Then then also need to prove they have a medical diagnosis and provide this in the form of two reports, one from a doctor specialising in GD (they must tbe recognised by the GMC as having this speciality) and one from another medical professional. Report B must include specific details of their treatment, hormones, surgery had or planned. If they have had surgery they must disclose the exact details of their surgery. They then need a statutory declaration witnessed by the usual types of people; a judge, a doctor, a legal executive, a Magistrate etc.

Once they have collated their evidence, they then send it off and it is placed before the Gender Recognition Panel, a group of legal and medical professionals. Who will decide if then can have a GRC.

Once they have gone through this process, if their application is accepted, a GRC is issued. This is by no means guaranteed. A number are refused.

The new proposals are not to bypass this entire process but to remove some of the steps, most notably the need for two full medical reports and the exhaustive evidence of medical diagnosis and intervention. Some are calling it the de-medicalisation of the process. However, applications will still go before a panel to be assessed and some evidence will be required.

And crucially once a GRC is issued based on self ID then the usual agencies i.e. pensions, HRMC, etc will be automatically notified and that person must, therefore, live legally in the system as a woman.

I fully appreciate that this information isn't going to sway anyone who is on the opposite side to me. But I wanted to lay out the process in a little more detail to give a better understanding of why I feel the way I do. Personally I believe that there are good checks and balances in the system being proposed. I can't see how this process will make it easier for male sex offenders to access womens spaces when compared with the current system. No one is suggesting a system where someone can turn up and go away five minutes later with a GRC and a free pass.

I accept that people have strong feelings on this and many disagree with me.  I believe a convincing case that male violence against women has been made and has been being made for decades but I don't see the relevance to the particular issue of self ID.

If a male sex offender wishes to abuse women, there are a lot easier ways to do it than to go through a legal process that will impact their entire life. That is, I accept, an entirely shameful state of affairs and we should all be working towards a process where victims are supported more effectively and reporting is a much less anguished ordeal.

And yes, I have seen transcrime and ultimately I'm not going to pay it any more attention than a website called lesbiancrime that details cases with people like Polly Chowdhury or Rachel Fee. There are people capable of apalling abuse in every community and there's plenty who, had the internet been around, would have built sites like that during Section 28.

I don't oppose those who want to fight this consultation because I want to make it easier for men to abuse women or because I value transwomen more than other women. I oppose those who are fighting this because I think you are wrong. And I haven't seen anything that has convinced me otherwise, just as my words above won't convince any of you.

Offline Betty Croker

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #816 on: May 18, 2018, 07:02:47 PM »
The idea that we would need a Trojan horse to discuss something on a message board  speaks volumes in itself.

The test is self Id. Nothing more can be required in evidence than ďI self id as a woman.Ē If there was a panel examining that what are they going to reject it for? Bad spelling?. I suppose obvious mental health problems if they draw unicorns on the form.

You are wilfully ignoring the culture of self Id arguments than donít require a man in a changing room sending off for a GRC but make it harder to challenge them.

And now I know how Joan of Arc felt.......

Offline Madge Hooks

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #817 on: May 18, 2018, 09:18:32 PM »
There are two distinct things being discussed in this thread. The changes to the GRC and transwomen's access to women's spaces. But the first is a Trojan Horse to discuss the second.

Currently, to get a GRC, a trans person has to fill out an exhaustive form and provide a huge amount of evidence, including proof they have lived in their preferred gender for two years, including official documentation, payslips, doctor/dentist evidence, utility bills, bank statements etc. etc. Then then also need to prove they have a medical diagnosis and provide this in the form of two reports, one from a doctor specialising in GD (they must tbe recognised by the GMC as having this speciality) and one from another medical professional. Report B must include specific details of their treatment, hormones, surgery had or planned. If they have had surgery they must disclose the exact details of their surgery. They then need a statutory declaration witnessed by the usual types of people; a judge, a doctor, a legal executive, a Magistrate etc.

Once they have collated their evidence, they then send it off and it is placed before the Gender Recognition Panel, a group of legal and medical professionals. Who will decide if then can have a GRC.

Once they have gone through this process, if their application is accepted, a GRC is issued. This is by no means guaranteed. A number are refused.

The new proposals are not to bypass this entire process but to remove some of the steps, most notably the need for two full medical reports and the exhaustive evidence of medical diagnosis and intervention. Some are calling it the de-medicalisation of the process. However, applications will still go before a panel to be assessed and some evidence will be required.

And crucially once a GRC is issued based on self ID then the usual agencies i.e. pensions, HRMC, etc will be automatically notified and that person must, therefore, live legally in the system as a woman.

I fully appreciate that this information isn't going to sway anyone who is on the opposite side to me. But I wanted to lay out the process in a little more detail to give a better understanding of why I feel the way I do. Personally I believe that there are good checks and balances in the system being proposed. I can't see how this process will make it easier for male sex offenders to access womens spaces when compared with the current system. No one is suggesting a system where someone can turn up and go away five minutes later with a GRC and a free pass.

I accept that people have strong feelings on this and many disagree with me.  I believe a convincing case that male violence against women has been made and has been being made for decades but I don't see the relevance to the particular issue of self ID.

If a male sex offender wishes to abuse women, there are a lot easier ways to do it than to go through a legal process that will impact their entire life. That is, I accept, an entirely shameful state of affairs and we should all be working towards a process where victims are supported more effectively and reporting is a much less anguished ordeal.

And yes, I have seen transcrime and ultimately I'm not going to pay it any more attention than a website called lesbiancrime that details cases with people like Polly Chowdhury or Rachel Fee. There are people capable of apalling abuse in every community and there's plenty who, had the internet been around, would have built sites like that during Section 28.

I don't oppose those who want to fight this consultation because I want to make it easier for men to abuse women or because I value transwomen more than other women. I oppose those who are fighting this because I think you are wrong. And I haven't seen anything that has convinced me otherwise, just as my words above won't convince any of you.

Yes.

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« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 09:37:59 PM by Madge Hooks »

Offline Lyco

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #818 on: May 18, 2018, 10:22:14 PM »
You are wilfully ignoring the culture of self Id arguments than donít require a man in a changing room sending off for a GRC but make it harder to challenge them.

Iím not wilfully ignoring it. I just donít think itís true. My experience tells me that.

I do not present in a traditionally feminine way. In the U.K. I am regularly and by that I mean, 9 times out of 10, challenged when I go into a womenís loo or changing room. From polite Ďsorry, this is the ladiesí to far more hostile language. I smile, poke my chest out and even sometimes apologise for looking the way I do. I am not male, I am a cis woman. And there is always someone who will challenge me instinctively. No change in the law will stop that happening.


Offline two monkeys

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #819 on: May 18, 2018, 11:44:15 PM »
You are wilfully ignoring the culture of self Id arguments than donít require a man in a changing room sending off for a GRC but make it harder to challenge them.

Iím not wilfully ignoring it. I just donít think itís true. My experience tells me that.

I do not present in a traditionally feminine way. In the U.K. I am regularly and by that I mean, 9 times out of 10, challenged when I go into a womenís loo or changing room. From polite Ďsorry, this is the ladiesí to far more hostile language. I smile, poke my chest out and even sometimes apologise for looking the way I do. I am not male, I am a cis woman. And there is always someone who will challenge me instinctively. No change in the law will stop that happening.


It makes me sad to think that the general female population is more familiar with and accepting of transwomen than a butch lesbian.


Can you posit why this isn't happening in Ireland?
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Offline Earl

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #820 on: May 18, 2018, 11:56:37 PM »
You are wilfully ignoring the culture of self Id arguments than donít require a man in a changing room sending off for a GRC but make it harder to challenge them.

Iím not wilfully ignoring it. I just donít think itís true. My experience tells me that.

I do not present in a traditionally feminine way. In the U.K. I am regularly and by that I mean, 9 times out of 10, challenged when I go into a womenís loo or changing room. From polite Ďsorry, this is the ladiesí to far more hostile language. I smile, poke my chest out and even sometimes apologise for looking the way I do. I am not male, I am a cis woman. And there is always someone who will challenge me instinctively. No change in the law will stop that happening.

Some might challenge this 'furtive' person, too (taken from Betty's earlier post):
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prince-edward-island/pei-human-rights-complaint-1.3735833

But rather than poking her chest out, she might waggle her dick. And her certificate. And cause a 'shitstorm'.
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Offline Slantrhyme

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #821 on: May 19, 2018, 01:05:49 PM »
 This is a bit of the Conversation between Venice Alan and MB that C4 filmed for MBs íwhat makes a womaní documentary.
https://youtu.be/4MWQCYOqCFk
 Noticed that MBs only objection is a perceived Missgendering of a child, not that a parent took their child out of the country to have their genitals partially removed in an operation that is illegal for people under the age of 18 in the UK. Not to mention the fact that the woman in question is the head of a charity who receives quite considerable funding to go into schools, and advises parents on these issues. A parent took their daughter to another country to have FGM, it would rightly be considered as a crime, yet this   Serious safeguarding issue is being ignored in favour of you must respect my gender, yet Posey Parker was questioned by the police for calling this out. This is the level of fucked upness we have reached where gender identity is sacrosanct and everybody elseís safety and wellbeing is aggressively ignored.   
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Offline two monkeys

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #822 on: May 19, 2018, 01:37:09 PM »
I was thinking about this last night. There are laws about FGM and taking your child abroad for FGM. As the police have been made aware that the event took place I'm wondering why charges haven't been made?

What affect will that have on any future case of FGM being prosecuted when a white woman can get away with it with the full knowledge of the police and medical profession?
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Offline Betty Croker

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #823 on: May 19, 2018, 02:09:07 PM »
Itís an impossible position for a parent to be in, in my opinion. I feel like any possible discussion of the wider issue was further disrupted by the way Posie Parker went about challenging the individual mother and the language she used. It was wrong that she was quizzed by police for it IMO but the way she spoke was dehumanising, stomach churning and just ďickĒ. Speaking to people like that helps to shut down the actual discussion and discredits the position sheís trying to advance.
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Offline Betty Croker

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #824 on: May 19, 2018, 02:49:29 PM »
Two Monks, I might be missing something but I think the daughter she took abroad for the procedure was biologically male and indetified as female. FGM is specific to the labia, clitoris. Etc - female organs. Then there is the issue of whether it was for a medical purpose. I know parents exist who donít even try to act in the best interests of their child but unless there is something  to specifically show that is the case, I find itís usual that parents are trying to do the best for their kids and the options are not great whatever they do. The wider issue is whether safeguarding around these issues is suitably robust given the insane climate the conversation is trying to taking place in.
And now I know how Joan of Arc felt.......