Author Topic: How far does your sexuality stretch?  (Read 9295 times)

Offline Betty Croker's frosted buns

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #795 on: May 18, 2018, 11:24:44 AM »
But that is the point. How can proper controlled studies be conducted if the data collected is being skewed? If the law is due to be changed, shouldn’t this have been done already? There’s no point locking the stable door when the horse has already bolted.

I can imagine the hoo ha on campus if anyone even applied for a grant to measure how much of a change in sex crime rates was to due trans women being included officially as women in the statistics.

Kristina Harrison, speaking as a trans woman at A Womans Place about being resolutely opposed to the GRA self id proposals. I think its important to see her speak using her own words and not have people speak for her. You can't claim to be simply protecting trans women's interests and ignore her voice in this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPdhIjWgKFg
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Online Wolfgang

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #796 on: May 18, 2018, 11:25:55 AM »
TITTM atm but this is my general take on such things:
bigthink.com/paul-ratner/steven-pinker-excessive-political-correctness-feeds-dangerous-ideas
https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2018/01/10/surprise-pinker-smeared-again-by-those-who-distort-his-words/

People noticing/ questioning facts is not prejudice but people deriving prejudicial conclusions from them is.  I appreciate this can get a bit chicken and egg re data collection but it's not hopeless, because when you sit down and think about it it's possible to work out that the egg came first.
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Offline Top

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #797 on: May 18, 2018, 11:38:49 AM »
Right, I found it again.
https://fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-prisoners/
 This research  conducted using all available data shows that of the 113 MTF people in prison,  57 have convictions  for sex offences and the most serious crimes, a total of almost 50%.  The percentage of people imprisoned in the women’s estate for sex related crimes is 3%, of something like a population of 4000, (BCFC you might be able to help me with that stat) but that number doesn’t take into consideration The proportion of MTFs already housed in women’s prisons.
 I think you’ll agree that almost 50% is a lot more than 3%, and there’s a darn sight more women in this country than MTF.

That one was debunked, already.


https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/41-per-cent-trans-transgender-trans-women-prisoners-sex-offenders-false-study-statistic-this-is-why-a8072431.html



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Offline Betty Croker's frosted buns

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #798 on: May 18, 2018, 11:47:41 AM »
Right, I found it again.
https://fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-prisoners/
 This research  conducted using all available data shows that of the 113 MTF people in prison,  57 have convictions  for sex offences and the most serious crimes, a total of almost 50%.  The percentage of people imprisoned in the women’s estate for sex related crimes is 3%, of something like a population of 4000, (BCFC you might be able to help me with that stat) but that number doesn’t take into consideration The proportion of MTFs already housed in women’s prisons.
 I think you’ll agree that almost 50% is a lot more than 3%, and there’s a darn sight more women in this country than MTF.

That one was debunked, already.


https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/41-per-cent-trans-transgender-trans-women-prisoners-sex-offenders-false-study-statistic-this-is-why-a8072431.html

It wasn't debunked. A hopeless and inaccurate attempt was made to debunk it. That so called debunk is less accurate than the original source it criticises.

I think its the same idiot that suggests on twitter that women in the first world are not disadvantaged by their sex in any way, quotes a 1 in 5 statistic for women who have been sexually abused and then states that is massively over-inflated  ::).
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Offline Top

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #799 on: May 18, 2018, 11:54:36 AM »
Okay, here’s the source material for there bring 70 rath3 than 113 trans prisoners.

http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7420

And here’s a quote from the study that Slanty linked to, saying that the information they have extrapolated isn’t actually collected by the Ministry of Justice.

‘The prison service is not recording data on transgender prisoners systematically. The Ministry of Justice and the prison service did not supply information via Freedom of Information requests, as they stated that there is no ‘business or legal case’ for recording the data..’

So, if the MoJ don’t know, Fair Play for Women can’t know either.
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Offline Top

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #800 on: May 18, 2018, 12:10:25 PM »
Betty, what level of lawlessness in trans people would you find acceptable, a straight woman rate of offending, a lesbian rate of offending or a zero rate of offending?
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Offline Betty Croker's frosted buns

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #801 on: May 18, 2018, 12:24:11 PM »
While you sit internet campaigning from the Republic of Ireland all day, I visit prisons in England and Wales and have done almost daily for the last 26 years.

The so called “debunk” claims that the number of transwomen in prison is overinflated because it refers to 70 trans prisoners not transwomen and that doesn’t exclude trans men. If you look at the source there were no 0 trans men in prison at the time of the study, so that criticism fails.Second criticism, Fair Play for Women quote more transwomen in prison than records show are in prison. That’s because they have used newspaper reports to id convicted people who define as transgendered whether the prison statistics record them as simply female or male. No problem there. It depends whether you use the self id system or the old GRC system, to a great extent but the number itself has not been fiddled with to not answer the real question.

There are also those who id as transwomen at the point of arrest who don’t seek to identify as transwomen in the prison system. There is at least one notable manslaughter case where that happened.

The statement that all those housed in eight prisons in the UK (Ashfield, Bure, Isle of Wight, Littlehey, Rye Hill, Stafford, Usk and Whatton) are sex offenders is said to be inaccurate because and I quote the author for Wolfie’s empirical satisfaction  “In fact, a quick search on the Ministry of Justice website” reveals.

A quick search on the Ministry of Justice website. That’s what this so called “debunk” featured as an opinion piece in the Independent  is based on.

I’ve been to all of those prisons personally in the last year. They are all designated sex offender jails.

Try most of those prison phone numbers of the Ministry of Justice website for a start or try to arrange a visit on the dates they advertise for visits. They don’t update those website pages. They don’t have the money to do that.  One prison on there doesn’t even exist and hasn’t for years.

HMP Rye Hill now does only have sex offenders. It was the website that was out of date and the "debunk" that was wrong not Fair Play for Women.

Other prisons such as HMP Bullingdon and, HMP Altcourse to name but two off the top of my head also house sex offenders and mains prisoners so any trans women being held there for sex offences will  not show up in the assessment and the numbers will be underestimated rather than overestimated. HMP Frankland where Ian Huntley is said to be transitioning and HMP Full Sutton as well as HMP Hull and HMP Wakefield, just off the top of my head also house high security sex offenders as well as non-sex offenders prisoners.

Category C prisons house sex offenders (and non sex offenders depending on which Cat C prison it is) not deemed dangerous or likely to escape. They are still sex offenders. Prisoners in Cat C prisons include convicted murders, rapists and terrorists. They are just murders, rapists and terrorists who have progressed through the system. Cat C doesn't say anything about the seriousness of the index offence for which they are serving.

 “Vulnerable prisoners” doesn’t mean a prison who is vulnerable. They mostly all are in some way through mental health, young or old age. Those prisoners are held in YOI’s or the mains. VP is a term which in practice almost exclusively denotes a sex offender or one on remand who has not yet been convicted of a sex offence and is likely to be attacked on the mains wings.

Then we have the same old unproven cliché - “This is despite there being absolutely no evidence of this being a problem in countries where self-identification is already a possibility”. Well, we’ve seen what a load of old nosehair claim that is.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 12:40:27 PM by Betty Croker's frosted buns »
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Offline Slantrhyme

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #802 on: May 18, 2018, 12:30:09 PM »
When we are talking about the potentially risks to the safety and dignity of women and girls by the introduction of a new group, it would be kind of helpful to have a full and rigourous  risk assessment.  I’d say that was pretty obvious. the fact that no attempt at this has even been made is telling.  You however don’t seem to think it matters so that’s fine. Why let facts get in the way of a good story.   
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Offline Betty Croker's frosted buns

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #803 on: May 18, 2018, 12:44:54 PM »
Just the fact that the whole debate about womens safety is being discussed in terms of therd being no evidence of any threat whilst at the same time acknowledging that there is no data being collected or examined so gleefully "no one can prove they are at risk".

And of course, anecdotally, we either choosing not to hear or believe your evidence. What if that was disabled womens lives or trans lives? Would it be so easy for you to discount our lived experience as not being empirical enough for your purposes when there is no empirical investment being made for us?

That's when you look at your so called "intersectional feminism" and ask "is there any feminism actually in there?"
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 12:58:08 PM by Betty Croker's frosted buns »
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Offline Slantrhyme

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #804 on: May 18, 2018, 12:56:55 PM »
 It’s kind of like the people who would use the low conviction rate for rape to argue that  women are making it up.  It all has very sinister over tones for me. Call me paranoid but it really does set alarm bells clanging in my head. 
 Actually, it’s not kind of like at all, it’s exactly like.
 Edited because actually, I’m not going to minimise my point. 
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 01:16:41 PM by Slantrhyme »
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Online Wolfgang

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #805 on: May 18, 2018, 01:32:09 PM »
Don't you understand that no one will fund those studies and the data to enable them isn't being collected?

We live in a world where you can't find a police station that's open at 11am? There's no one allocating money to measure stuff like that.

We don't live in an academic utopia
(Creeping sheepishly back like Father Ted)
I absolutely know that. (And afaic Betty, you and I are personally fine following our misunderstanding on Sunday.)  My own fairly common, high suicide rate organic disease gets a fraction of the research funding that male-pattern baldness does and it almost all goes into astonishingly shoddy, neoliberal DWP-funded victim-blaming propaganda.  It hurts. A lot.

To quote an ME ally here, 
"...it has been suggested that if practical issues make robust methodology hard to set up then weaker methodology has to be used. That will sometimes be so. But it makes no sense to say that if you cannot work out how to do a reliable study then an unreliable study can be taken as reliable." 
The psychological and social sciences in particular are so in the grip of confirmation bias and a replication crisis that I wouldn't know where to begin as far as trusting any finding is concerned.  That goes double for amateurs with an open hostility towards the people who they're researching.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 01:42:24 PM by Wolfgang »
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Offline Betty Croker's frosted buns

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #806 on: May 18, 2018, 01:55:42 PM »
Don't you understand that no one will fund those studies and the data to enable them isn't being collected?

We live in a world where you can't find a police station that's open at 11am? There's no one allocating money to measure stuff like that.

We don't live in an academic utopia
(Creeping sheepishly back like Father Ted)
I absolutely know that. (And afaic Betty, you and I are personally fine following our misunderstanding on Sunday.)  My own fairly common, high suicide rate organic disease gets a fraction of the research funding that male-pattern baldness does and it almost all goes into astonishingly shoddy, neoliberal DWP-funded victim-blaming propaganda.  It hurts. A lot.

To quote an ME ally here, 
"...it has been suggested that if practical issues make robust methodology hard to set up then weaker methodology has to be used. That will sometimes be so. But it makes no sense to say that if you cannot work out how to do a reliable study then an unreliable study can be taken as reliable." 
The psychological and social sciences in particular are so in the grip of confirmation bias and a replication crisis that I wouldn't know where to begin as far as trusting any finding is concerned.  That goes double for amateurs with an open hostility towards the people who they're researching.

I don't disagree with you but I'm finding every rational argument, every bit of data that's put forward for consideration to evaluate the potential risk to women is being dismissed as motivated by irrational prejudice rather than by an obvious need to make a thorough assessment. There are some people who are openly hostile and demonising on the closing down of debate side and on the need for debate side. To kick every rational fact or data set that contradicts what one would prefer to believe, out of bed because you can point to someone in stripey tights and a balaclava screaming for blood, is not the way. Edited to say but then I know, you personally, know that so my remark is meant more widely.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 02:00:41 PM by Betty Croker's frosted buns »
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Offline Slantrhyme

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #807 on: May 18, 2018, 01:59:37 PM »
 Launching a one sided consultation is blatant and it doesn’t take a genius level of numeracy to add 2 and 2. It’s not even a case of ok well we’ll work with the information we have, because the only information they are intending to work with is from one side. I would like somebody to tell me how that is in anyway just or fair.   
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Offline Betty Croker's frosted buns

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #808 on: May 18, 2018, 02:04:01 PM »
Its because all issues have become transcentric. Its part of a wider problem.

Any issue of gender or sex or indeed which touches on the lives of transpeople must centre rather than include them and that's just irrational and unfair.

But that's the result of aggressive transactivism and LGBT sell-out and lack of representation of women which has been going on for probably over a decade and it needs calling out because it won't stop with the GRA amendment.
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Online Wolfgang

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #809 on: May 18, 2018, 02:21:57 PM »

I don't disagree with you but I'm finding every rational argument, every bit of data that's put forward for consideration to evaluate the potential risk to women is being dismissed as motivated by irrational prejudice rather than by an obvious need to make a thorough assessment. There are some people who are openly hostile and demonising on the closing down of debate side and on the need for debate side. To kick every rational fact or data set that contradicts what one would prefer to believe, out of bed because you can point to someone in stripey tights and a balaclava screaming for blood, is not the way. Edited to say but then I know, you personally, know that so my remark is meant more widely.
But when all is said and done, what other option do we have except to try it and see what happens?
I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong that transwomen aren't shouting at me to suck their balls. - Hhayt