Author Topic: How far does your sexuality stretch?  (Read 36746 times)

Offline Top

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #720 on: May 16, 2018, 08:55:21 PM »
I could go and dig around on the web. I could acknowledge at least two rape/attempted rape stories on here that werenít reported to the police. I know professionally of some voyeur incidents but most importantly the last ten years have not provided a cultural get out of jail free ticket for males who canít be challenged on their right to enter and stay in female space.

I agree that many rapes arenít reported and I think thatís a massive problem but you canít reasonable expect to limit legislation based on things that might have happened.

Personally, I fear that the Man Friday project has done more to create that cultural get out of jail free card, with their actions. Up until very recently trans women knew that they were free to use the gendered space of their choosing but men didnít. Now they do, itís been in the papers.

There are men who are belligerently anti feminist and the publicity around Man Friday, takes advantage of menís space. I wouldnít be surprised to see a counter attack and that would do none of us any good.
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Offline Slantrhyme

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #721 on: May 16, 2018, 08:56:30 PM »
Iíve just watched this while cooking the tea
https://www.facebook.com/TheJamJarBristol/posts/793672257494647/
 Iíve got to 2 hours in and I havenít seen any of this evil transphobic hate speech and vitreal you talked of Top, Iíve just seen a group of women expressing their views and having a civilised discussion. Please can you point me to where exactly all this evil hate speech takes place?   Maybe it comes in the last 46 minutes I havenít watched yet?

No, Iím not going to watch that for you. That was a fundraiser not one of the hate rallies. However, if you donít fancy watching the last 46 minutes, I can tell you know that you wonít find any transphobia in it because you refuse to acknowledge what transphobia is.
And what the actual fuck is a hate rally? Come on, tell me what happens at a hate rally, did they stare at pictures of the enemy and  throw newspeak dictionaries at the telly screen? Come on, if youíre going to use such ludicrous hyperbole you better tell me some really crazy badass shit they did at the hate rally. You know what I bet, I bet they were just talking, is that what they were doing at the hate rally?     
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Offline Betty Croker

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #722 on: May 16, 2018, 09:01:54 PM »
No, you canít expect proposed laws to take into account the uncontested reality that many rapes and sexual assaults go unreported. We both know it happens but we should ignore it when making it easier to happen.  ::)
And now I know how Joan of Arc felt.......

Offline Top

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #723 on: May 16, 2018, 09:36:47 PM »
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I'm pages behind everyone else but I'd like to address a few of these replies to my post.
Obviously a small group  women from trans activists can have a powerful effect on an organisation like Mumsnet. They set up a twitter account and stared reporting every post they considered transphobic to MNHQ. If they succeeded in shutting down that feminist board then 11 million women would no.longer have access to a place to debate.

I follow a few of those people on Twitter, I canít see any attempt to shut down MN, it think itís pretty universally agreed that, apart from the unfettered transphobia, itís an excellent resource.

Iíve got a couple of mates Iíve Ďmetí on Mumsnet, theyíre much closer to the perceived demographic than I am, both straight women, with young kids. Theyíre pretty outraged that the homophobia is allowed on a messageboard where they should be able to interact without encountering it.

The mothers of trans kids, like all mother of kids with additional needs, need the support of MN more than most, they shouldnít have to see posts accusing them of child abuse from ill informed bigots p, who have never been in their position.

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Regarding  your comment about me posting therefore I'm not being silenced, obviously I am saying what I think, here and elsewhere because I refuse to keep quiet, but the attempt to silence debate is well documented. Everyone has noticed, even James Kirkup in the Spectator.
Here is an excellent article on that.

Yeah, the attempt to silence debate is very well documented, the Times has an article on it nearly every week, The New Statesmen is also prolific in their publication of stories about being silenced and the Guardian, in what is suppose is an attempt at balance, has a being silenced article for ever trans related one. As you demonstrate the Spectator has also mentioned the silencing. Itís one of the most well publicised silencings Iíve ever heard about and I have heard about it, repeatedly.

Itís also fair to say that there are a fair few claims of silencing on social media.

Iím awful at spelling and silence is one of those words Iíve always had a real block with. At the age of fifty, Iíve finally learned how to spell it because Iím using it so much. Frankly, shut up would have been easier for me.

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You've excused the behaviour of a mob against one woman at the Anarchist Book Fair. She was handing out leaflets that were concerned about the GRA... You've also called me GB'S transphobe in chief so I take it that you'd say I deserved it if a group of 30people surrounded and jostled and threatened me?
It sounds like you're condoning violence and bullying...

Iím sorry if you understood that from what wrote that I condone violence or bullying I condem them in the strongest possible terms but I do think that your constant drip feed of anti trans stories and your attempt to paint trans people as monsters is bullying too. You havenít withdrawn the misinformation you put up about Roz or the American trans women or any of the other I canít remember off the top of my head.

I donít want to jostle you for it, I donít think that anyone else should jostle you for it but you are bullying.


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Please do me a favour and concede that FGM is in no way transphobic, no sane person could think otherwise.

No problem, of course FGM isnít transphobic but when you ask questions like that, youíre feeding into the idea that this is a statement than trans people, collectively, make or believe. But one looper saying something on twitter doesnít make it the collective consensus.

Youíve also given examples of things that trans people have said and held them up as Ďthe trans ideologyí. For examples Shon Fayís comment of Ďenjoy you erasureí in isolation sounds bad but Shon is a stand up, who writes funny little twitter threads, like most people telling a joke a single offensive phrase can be picked out and used to make someone look bad. Shon doesnít get a article in the Times every week to defend herself, if anyone is being silenced, itís her and people like her.

On a side note, itís got quite old for me to hear white Western woman use FGM as a sign of their oppression. I think itís a fairly big bit of cultural misappropriation, condem it by all means, talk about it by all means but I donít want to hear any more, Ďwe oppressed by our biology because FGM and period hutsí. Youíre not but other women are and to hear some white western woman wear the oppression of othrrr women, as if it were their own is disrespectful. 
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Offline Blythe

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #724 on: May 16, 2018, 09:53:21 PM »
Most of the women posting about FGM and the offence they feel about any suggestion its transphobic are black. I'm being offended on their behalf like you are with trans people. Are you being disrespectful to be so animated about trans rights?
Obviously not.

The bizarre thing about the articles about silencing women is that they don't really explore either debate much. They just state that two sides are polarised. The Guardian usually favours the trans side and the Spectator and Morning Star usually favour the gender critical side. The others such as the Mail, the Telegraph and Times seem to write articles supporting both sides depending on the journalist.

I don't consider what I posted about Roz Kavaney and Jennifer Pritzker to be misinformation.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 09:56:06 PM by Blythe »
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Offline Top

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #725 on: May 16, 2018, 09:57:00 PM »
No, you canít expect proposed laws to take into account the uncontested reality that many rapes and sexual assaults go unreported. We both know it happens but we should ignore it when making it easier to happen.  ::)

I know that many rapes go unreported but to extrapolate that into Ďmany rapes of women by men prenteding to be trans women go unreported and that number will grow if trans women can more easily obtain GRCí is fantasy land.

Now, youíve said that your not in favour of changes to the GRA but you also woosh around whether or not you want the older EA rolled back. Iím honestly not clear what your position is but either way, you want laws rolled back and rights withdrawn or more up to date laws,that take into consideration the current medical position, not inacted because of your fears.

I accept your fears are genuine but I donít think that they are justified by evidence. I donít think that your fears about being safe trump anyone elseís right to live in safety.

I donít think that youíre perception of your own personal dignity, as it relates to sharing space with another woman, trumps that womanís personal dignity but I donít actually think herís trumps yours either. No one can legislate for feelings, so it has to come down to an evidence based approach and Iíll be delighted to look at yours when you have any.
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Offline Slantrhyme

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #726 on: May 16, 2018, 10:17:26 PM »
No, you canít expect proposed laws to take into account the uncontested reality that many rapes and sexual assaults go unreported. We both know it happens but we should ignore it when making it easier to happen.  ::)

I know that many rapes go unreported but to extrapolate that into Ďmany rapes of women by men prenteding to be trans women go unreported and that number will grow if trans women can more easily obtain GRCí is fantasy land.

Now, youíve said that your not in favour of changes to the GRA but you also woosh around whether or not you want the older EA rolled back. Iím honestly not clear what your position is but either way, you want laws rolled back and rights withdrawn or more up to date laws,that take into consideration the current medical position, not inacted because of your fears.

I accept your fears are genuine but I donít think that they are justified by evidence. I donít think that your fears about being safe trump anyone elseís right to live in safety.

I donít think that youíre perception of your own personal dignity, as it relates to sharing space with another woman, trumps that womanís personal dignity but I donít actually think herís trumps yours either. No one can legislate for feelings, so it has to come down to an evidence based approach and Iíll be delighted to look at yours when you have any.
Oh fabulous Top, no one can legislate for a feeling can they not, unless itís feeling like youíre a member of the opposite gender?  I feel like a social construct, can I just have that on my birth certificate instead? 
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Offline Top

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #727 on: May 16, 2018, 10:21:03 PM »
Most of the women posting about FGM and the offence they feel about any suggestion its transphobic are black
.

ĎMostí suggests a group, there is one woman of colour who has undergone FGM who is saying this, on twitter. Iím going to be really frank and say that I doubt her story, that woman claims that she canít go to the supermarket without a trans women telling her that she canít discuss FGM. I simply donít believe that she can meet that man trans women, or that they know that sheís an FGM victim and makes comments about it.

Seriously,  where is she shopping?


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I'm being offended on their behalf like you are with trans people.

I think that thereís is a difference between being offended about FGM and claiming the experience as your own. Iíve seen white Western TERFS do that but you havenít here and Iím glad to hear that you donít.

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The bizarre thing about the articles about silencing women is that they don't really explore either debate much. They just state that two sides are polarised. The Guardian usually favours the trans side and the Spectator and Morning Star usually favour the gender critical side. The others such as the Mail, the Telegraph and Times seem to write articles supporting both sides depending on the journalist.

I disagree with your analysis of the coverage and I know someone with a pie chart to prove it. Iím happy to send you that pie chart.

Iím sorry but Iím not using the term Ďgender criticalí, itís a lie. If you donít like it and you want me to use a word that isnít TERF for those who donít hold as extreme views as TERFS, thatís fine Iíll use it but only if it has its feet in reality.

So, if those people that I donít currently have a name for want a story that isnít about heir silencing , then they need to come up with one. In every single one of your posts, instead of supplying evidences or facts, youíve referenced being silenced. At one point on this thread, some one even said that being asked for facts was silencing. Youíve made that your story, you canít blame anyone else for that.

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I don't consider what I posted about Roz Kavaney and Jennifer Pritzker to be misinformation.

But what youíve said, has no basis in fact and youíve offered no evidence. Youíve made claims about those people that I canít prove wrong because there isnít tangiable proof of things that people havenít done and youíve failed to back up your claims.

Itís not alright for you to constantly repeat half remembered things that you might have read on Mumsnet, when they demonise a minority group. It would be bad enough if a racist went through the Daily Mail, picking out stories about black people to Ďproveí that they were more dangerous than white people,youíre actually going a step further and putting out things that donít even have the underemployed fact checkers of the Daily Mail to back them up.
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Offline Top

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #728 on: May 16, 2018, 10:25:31 PM »
Oh fabulous Top, no one can legislate for a feeling can they not, unless itís feeling like youíre a member of the opposite gender?  I feel like a social construct, can I just have that on my birth certificate instead?

I donít really care, I think itís the Town Hall you call for that but sorry, Iíve no change.

Edited to clarify, I donít give a shit whatís on your birth certificate, itís none of my business and doesnít impact my life in the least.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 10:27:07 PM by Top »
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Offline Top

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #729 on: May 16, 2018, 10:36:16 PM »
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Gender reassignment surgery clinics and research seem to be funded by Jennifer Pritzker, a trans woman billionaire whose family helped Obama run for President. Jennifer has funded trans acceptance in the US military and more than 40 clinics in America.
There's big money in transing people.

Tell a lie, Iíve managed to find the grants Jenís charity have awarded. Sheís managing to fund 40 clinics and and trans acceptance in the military for $1.6m? These billionaires know how to stretch a buck, donít they?

http://www.tawanifoundation.org/our-grants/
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 12:41:56 AM by Top »
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Offline Lust for Life

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #730 on: May 17, 2018, 12:59:27 AM »
I will put this in an IM as well in case it gets lost in this mammoth thread, but I am really sorry I missed/forgot what you said, Hhayt. I think at the time I interpreted your brackets and joke alongside as a big hint that I shouldn't respond to it, but that doesn't explain how I then forgot it altogether :-\

I am also sorry that you had these experiences.

Offline Lust for Life

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #731 on: May 17, 2018, 01:20:37 AM »
Also, thanks for the long explanation about the name change, Top.

Offline Earl

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #732 on: May 17, 2018, 01:34:03 AM »
On the question of it being men and not transgender people per se who attack women, therefore women are unnecessarily concerned about their safety:

I have worked with many male batterers and rapists. All of them get their jollies from making women uncomfortable, whenever the opportunity presents. Any number of them would be thrilled to apply for self-I'd. For fun.

The much earlier poster who wrote about a (wo)man using a urinal at a lesbian event, whilst other women were (in eyesight) queueing for the cubicle? This would be right up their alley.

Nye Bevan, 'the NHS will exist for only as long as the people fight for it'...or something like that.

Offline Madge Hooks

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #733 on: May 17, 2018, 01:38:18 AM »
I know that many rapes go unreported but to extrapolate that into Ďmany rapes of women by men prenteding to be trans women go unreported and that number will grow if trans women can more easily obtain GRCí is fantasy land.

100% this

The way to protect womenís rights on this front is to create an environment to encourage women to report rape, educate everyone in the police procedural system to take a rape report seriously, ensure that report ends up in a conviction, challenge law to ensure that conviction ends in a punishment that befits the crime and no free passes if the convicted has a promising cricket career ahead or pretends to be a woman.


Offline Betty Croker

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #734 on: May 17, 2018, 01:44:25 AM »
Or we could protect women properly from rapists in the first place and not minimise the risks to them.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 01:57:32 AM by Betty Croker's frosted buns »
And now I know how Joan of Arc felt.......