Author Topic: How far does your sexuality stretch?  (Read 9286 times)

Offline Marty.

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #735 on: May 17, 2018, 02:04:00 AM »
You talk a lot of sense Madge.

You too Betty.


Offline Top

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #736 on: May 17, 2018, 09:16:45 AM »
On the question of it being men and not transgender people per se who attack women, therefore women are unnecessarily concerned about their safety:

I have worked with many male batterers and rapists. All of them get their jollies from making women uncomfortable, whenever the opportunity presents. Any number of them would be thrilled to apply for self-I'd. For fun.

The much earlier poster who wrote about a (wo)man using a urinal at a lesbian event, whilst other women were (in eyesight) queueing for the cubicle? This would be right up their alley.

The self ID that being discussed is in relation to the proposed changes in the law that would enable trans women to change their birth certificates.

The Ďself idí that youíre talking about, being able to choose the loo or changing room of the personís choice is already in place, The way the law in the U.K. stands at this very moment, a man could use the ladies loo, change his name to a female one and have the gender markers changed on his driving licence and passport on the basis on self id but they havenít, itís not a problem.

In Ireland and the state of California, a man could also change his birth certificate as well but it still not a problem. They arenít even doing it for fun

Are you American? I donít want to give it large about my lovely wife but she was a fairly prominent domestic violence worker for the LGBT community in the U.K. She has trained all kinds of people who have worked or volunteered in DV and sheís a bit surprised at some of the words youíve used. Sheís fairly sure youíve had no training in the U.K.




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Offline Betty Croker's frosted buns

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #737 on: May 17, 2018, 09:40:26 AM »
Well if all of that is true, and baring in mind that most of what you say in almost every post is not, in fact you seem to regard speaking the truth as tantamount to virtue signalling, Top, then there is no point changing the law anyway. So why the 3 line whip of masked men and 24/7 internet bullies to police opinion?

I see you've now dropped Canada as a state that shows self id is not problematic. Because we showed that was not true.

I canít believe youíre asking Earl to state her training so you can discount her opinion. Itís not yours to discount. Itís for her to express.

Your wife once claimed on here that domestic violence was not against the law in the U.K. And whilst UK law does not need to specify the setting in which the violence took place, it absolutely prohibits all unlawful violence, domestic or otherwise.

Earl is saying that men who commit violence against women, who stalk and harrass and commit sexual crimes will push the envelope. I think most of us can accept thatís the case without asking to see her portfolio. I work with murderers, sex offenders, stalkers too. Men who grievance think, ruminate and abuse substances. They will play the margins to get what they want.

We have no culture today of men thinking they can access womens space without being challenged but that will soon change when the message gets through that biology is irrelevant and self Id is a get out of jail card to wander where you like.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 10:02:50 AM by Betty Croker's frosted buns »
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Offline Lyco

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #738 on: May 17, 2018, 10:17:33 AM »
Your wife once claimed on here that domestic violence was not against the law in the U.K. And whilst UK law does not need to specify the setting in which the violence took place, it absolutely prohibits all unlawful violence, domestic or otherwise.

Hello, I am between meetings so I will keep this brief. I am fairly certain at the time I was talking about that it was either just before or just after the 2015 coercive control offence came into law and I believe I was stating the importance of a specific law to protect victims of domestic abuse.

Please don't take my take my words out of context.

Secondly, my wife is referring to the fact I was startled about Earl using the term 'batterer'. That is not part of the perpetrator vernacular in the UK, no one working professionaly in that field (that I have ever met) would use that term.

Offline Betty Croker's frosted buns

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #739 on: May 17, 2018, 10:24:24 AM »
Your wife once claimed on here that domestic violence was not against the law in the U.K. And whilst UK law does not need to specify the setting in which the violence took place, it absolutely prohibits all unlawful violence, domestic or otherwise.

Hello, I am between meetings so I will keep this brief. I am fairly certain at the time I was talking about that it was either just before or just after the 2015 coercive control offence came into law and I believe I was stating the importance of a specific law to protect victims of domestic abuse.

Please don't take my take my words out of context.

Secondly, my wife is referring to the fact I was startled about Earl using the term 'batterer'. That is not part of the perpetrator vernacular in the UK, no one working professionaly in that field (that I have ever met) would use that term.

I'm not. And I don't see how the professional vernacular is relevant to this debate. We know what a batterer is. There is nothing misleading about it and neither is her point misleading, so why try and discredit what she is saying?

This is the stuff we are being told can't possibly happen. Before all of these legislative changes we are told by transactivists "All it will do is x. It won't effect you at all." Then the legislation passes and is more far reaching than was ever claimed at the time and we're told "Your time to challenge it has passed, suckers."

In Scotland they currently have this situation - Women in prison being made to shower alongside a male bodied murderer and being complemented for getting on with it because they believe in fairness and equality. Despite having no choice whatsover.

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/2228535/transgender-murderer-wins-prison-miss-fitness-title-greenock/
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 10:59:37 AM by Betty Croker's frosted buns »
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Online Slantrhyme

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #740 on: May 17, 2018, 10:47:20 AM »
 That seems like rather a pernickety semantic point. If it radically change the meaning of what she was saying then fair enough, but it doesnít does it?
 As BCFC says, at the moment itís pretty rare to see a man in a womenís single sex space and itís culturally taboo. If we have self ID it will not only normalise the site of men in womensí single sex spaces, but itíll mean women will be less likely to challenge them, because which of us knows just by looking what that man intends to do? The problem with men is that you canít always tell a bad one just by looking, and at the point where we might feel unsafe we have to weigh up the risks of what might happen if we make our feelings known. The problem with being socialised as female is that weíve all been taught to accommodate others and put their needs before our own, and to encourage other women to do the same. Add to this the threat of being labelled a transphobic, which seems to be the go to word to deflect and excuse all kinds of misogyny nowadays, and you get a climate where women arenít even allowed to feel safe in their own spaces. Why should just under 51% of the population be collateral damage for a system of self ID that will give transwomen no more rights than they have now aside from less admin, but will allow any man who chooses to say he feels like a woman and have it recognised in law.
 Also can I ask, what actual difference it makes having a GRC in the first place? If people can get by perfectly well without one now then why even bother with self ID, or even the GRA?       
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Offline Lyco

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #741 on: May 17, 2018, 12:30:48 PM »
Yep, I was being picky. I own that.

Earl is presenting herself as an expert on this in a professional context.  She used the term 'worked with'.

I am merely pointing out that she has used a phrase not used in any UK based perpetrator work. It doesn't mean she isn't an expert, it doesn't mean that her opinion shouldn't bear any weight, it simply means that I am confused about the kind of work she has done and how it informs her opinion and I think a little more clarity might be helpful for anyone reading her post, particularly those undecided or conflicted, and giving her opinion additional weight based on her professional experience.

Online Slantrhyme

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #742 on: May 17, 2018, 01:13:37 PM »
 No, I donít think so. Whether it was in the UK or elsewhere is not of any consequence, you were trying to discredit her by suggesting that she was not being truthful. Do we all have to provide provenance for our experiences and opinions now? Maybe you could play the ball, not the man, or the woman in this case.   
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Offline Earl

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #743 on: May 17, 2018, 02:40:35 PM »
Yep, I was being picky. I own that.

Earl is presenting herself as an expert on this in a professional context.  She used the term 'worked with'.

I am merely pointing out that she has used a phrase not used in any UK based perpetrator work. It doesn't mean she isn't an expert, it doesn't mean that her opinion shouldn't bear any weight, it simply means that I am confused about the kind of work she has done and how it informs her opinion and I think a little more clarity might be helpful for anyone reading her post, particularly those undecided or conflicted, and giving her opinion additional weight based on her professional experience.

My knowledge/experience/opinions come from forensic mental health, not domestic violence work.

I am more than dismayed...really, really more than...that you with a DV background, didn't immediately think 'yes, I get how this kind of manipulation be problematic'.
Instead, you focused on...my vocabulary? Which btw, re 'battery' is working class, rather than 'unprofessional' or 'American'.

F@cking anyway, back to the topic.
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Offline Lyco

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #744 on: May 17, 2018, 03:29:07 PM »
I think there are lots of problematic things about this debate but the proposed change to the GRC isn't one of them. This is a relatively tiny change to existing legislation making it a little easier for transpeople to go about their daily lives.

As someone who has been knocking around here for a while and remembers the 71-pages-in-24-hours debate about transmen and their place on GB, can someone tell me why the same people who oppose transmen in their spaces (because, well, they are men, obviously) also oppose transwomen in their spaces (because, well, they are men... oh. hang on..).

Are you trying to say that the only space you want to inhabit is an xx, cis-identified space?

Offline PushingThru

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #745 on: May 17, 2018, 03:46:00 PM »
What dismays me, about this whole thread, is the level of shaming going on. Itís a technique, and not a particularly nice one, to humiliate the person whose views you donít want to hear. I see it, noted.
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Offline Betty Croker's frosted buns

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #746 on: May 17, 2018, 04:02:56 PM »
Are there lesbians wanting to have cock free space, Lyco? The very thought. You must be apoplectic with rage. Now off you f@ck with the shaming.

« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 04:35:11 PM by Betty Croker's frosted buns »
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Online Slantrhyme

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #747 on: May 17, 2018, 04:03:16 PM »
I wasnít around for the transmen debate so I canít comment, but if you havenít understood our objections from the last 50 pages then I expect we could all type from now till next Thursday and you still wouldnít get it.
 Itís not that we havenít said, itís that youíve put your hands over your ears and shouted lalala.
 You know what particularly knarks me, the fact that you donít just say, I see what youíre saying but I disagree, you say, but you havenít said anything, when we clearly have. Either  all our posts are written in invisible ink, or you simply havenít read them.
Re the transnen thing, this website is for lesbian and bisexual *women,* so I doubt many transmen would identify as that, although I could of course be wrong.     
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Offline Betty Croker's frosted buns

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #748 on: May 17, 2018, 04:18:07 PM »
There is an obvious big difference between who I spend my leisure time with and who it is appropriate to put in particular safe spaces for women depending on what sort of space it is. I wouldnít hang out with Rose West but she is appropriately located in the womens estate. But bottom line is why Lyco thinks she gets to dictate to me who I should be spending social time with and who I should feel comfortable and safe with in certain environments. Thatís just not your call.
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Online Wolfgang

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Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
« Reply #749 on: May 17, 2018, 04:45:31 PM »
Copypasting myself here, but I'm presuming the answer to this inconsistency is patriarchy, because privilege may be easier to adopt than to shed and tilts the playing field so it's impossible to be even-handed.  Thus a transwoman is assumed to retain a man's sense of entitlement whereas a transman isn't assumed to have retained a woman's sense of disenfranchisement...
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