Author Topic: So... Labour..  (Read 34507 times)

Offline Earl

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Re: So... Labour..
« Reply #30 on: Jun 26, 2016, 02:47:31 PM »
I can't link it the title alone of Paul Mason's guardian article says enough...'JC delivered the Labour vote for remain....so let's get behind him'.
Nye Bevan, 'the NHS will exist for only as long as the people fight for it'...or something like that.

lyko

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Re: So... Labour..
« Reply #31 on: Jun 26, 2016, 05:46:13 PM »
I'm not surprised Seema Malhotra resigned after being so royaly screwed by John McDonnell this morning.

Question though, if the alleged evidence the BBC have seen emerges and it turns out to be true that Corbyn didn't support Remain and is happy with Brexit, where does that leave his supporters? Would you see that as a betrayal or would you reevaluate your own position (assuming you are in the Remain camp of course)?

Saga N

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Re: So... Labour..
« Reply #32 on: Jun 26, 2016, 06:08:33 PM »
Lyco, you've got your wet dream. Enjoy.

Offline Wolfgang

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Re: So... Labour..
« Reply #33 on: Jun 26, 2016, 07:16:00 PM »
How exactly are we defining "the Labour vote" here though?

Offline Quack

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Re: So... Labour..
« Reply #34 on: Jun 26, 2016, 07:28:32 PM »
Question though, if the alleged evidence the BBC have seen emerges and it turns out to be true that Corbyn didn't support Remain and is happy with Brexit, where does that leave his supporters? Would you see that as a betrayal or would you reevaluate your own position (assuming you are in the Remain camp of course)?

I would be quite upset if it turns out to be true. Partly as I contributed to the Labour remain campaign.  But mostly because I like Corbyn because I believe he is an honest person - perhaps that was naive of me to think there was a thing called an honest politician.

Saga N

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Re: So... Labour..
« Reply #35 on: Jun 26, 2016, 07:42:56 PM »
I just stumbled across this in my perusal of the cluster fuck that is the Parliamentary Labour Party:

http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/kirklees-mp-jo-cox-apologises-11305865

Not two weeks since her actual death, and here they are, sticking the knife in again. Dreadful irony.

The thing that interests me is that this criticism of his leadership style is, for many of us, one of his best points. This world/the media seemingly demands liars, demagogues, 'celebrities' for leaders. I will proudly stand by Corbyn precisely because he isn't that.

What this coup tells me is that there is an open and craven disregard for democracy now, in the PLP and in politics as a whole. People are calling this a post-facts age. Gove tells the world we're sick of experts.

I've never felt so despairing as I do at the moment. These Blairites are now ensuring that Labour cannot win the next election. They are betraying the party they claim to serve, not saving it.

lyko

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Re: So... Labour..
« Reply #36 on: Jun 26, 2016, 07:43:39 PM »
To be fair, he's never been anything but lukewarm about the EU anyway but from the chair of the Labour Remain campaign:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/26/corbyn-must-resign-inadequate-leader-betrayal

It's worth reading the whole article but this bit especially:

"This leads to me to the greatest betrayal and the final straw for many MPs. I have been told and shown evidence by an overwhelming number of unimpeachably neutral Labour remain staff that Corbynís office, for which he must take full responsibility, consistently attempted to weaken and sabotage the Labour remain campaign, in contravention of the partyís official position. For example, they resisted all polling and focus group evidence on message and tone, raised no campaign finance, failed to engage with the campaign delivery and deliberately weakened and damaged the argument Labour sought to make."

Saga N

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Re: So... Labour..
« Reply #37 on: Jun 26, 2016, 07:57:39 PM »
I'm trying really hard to understand why the Tory referendum - pandering to the lowest possible denominator of fear across the British people - ending in Brexit is Corbyn's fault? It wasn't Corbyn's game to win, but he went out as often (more, in fact) as, say, Alan Johnson (does anyone recall seeing him on TV lately?)

Please stop pretending this is anything but an opportunistic and cynical attempt to oust someone who spanked the Progress candidates' arses in the leadership election. They are still bitter, and are being as breathtakingly disloyal to the party and its leader as Corbyn has been gracious towards the tossers who have been taking a pop at him for the whole nine months.

Brexit is simply an excuse.

Offline Quack

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Re: So... Labour..
« Reply #38 on: Jun 26, 2016, 07:59:49 PM »
To be fair, he's never been anything but lukewarm about the EU anyway

He has been lukewarm about the EU. But he made a decision to go with 'Remain' and he's told us that he did all he could (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/jeremy-corbyn-vows-to-face-down-any-leadership-challenge-brexit). If it turns out not to be true then I will be annoyed.


Saga N

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Re: So... Labour..
« Reply #39 on: Jun 26, 2016, 08:00:24 PM »
Chilcott next week. Wonder if Tony's mates are trying to create a distraction?

dukovearl

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Re: So... Labour..
« Reply #40 on: Jun 26, 2016, 08:11:49 PM »
To be fair, he's never been anything but lukewarm about the EU anyway but from the chair of the Labour Remain campaign:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/26/corbyn-must-resign-inadequate-leader-betrayal

It's worth reading the whole article but this bit especially:

"This leads to me to the greatest betrayal and the final straw for many MPs. I have been told and shown evidence by an overwhelming number of unimpeachably neutral Labour remain staff that Corbynís office, for which he must take full responsibility, consistently attempted to weaken and sabotage the Labour remain campaign, in contravention of the partyís official position. For example, they resisted all polling and focus group evidence on message and tone, raised no campaign finance, failed to engage with the campaign delivery and deliberately weakened and damaged the argument Labour sought to make."



Hm...maybe true, maybe just a bit of trouble causing, who can tell? Phil Wilson is a Blairite though and it is a little discussed fact that Labour lost a lot of support during the Blair and Brown years. In the Blair landslide of 1997, 13.5m people voted Labour, but by 2010 the figure was down to 8.6m and there was a lot of analysis saying these were middle class defectors and that winning them back was the only way forward. Apparently the working class voter was far less important to Labour in 2010. How strange then, that people are now saying the opposite and criticising a resurgence in middle class support alongside left-wing policies to support poorer people.

Offline Dorothy L.Smythe

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Re: So... Labour..
« Reply #41 on: Jun 26, 2016, 08:18:08 PM »

What this coup tells me is that there is an open and craven disregard for democracy now, in the PLP and in politics as a whole. People are calling this a post-facts age. Gove tells the world we're sick of experts.

I've never felt so despairing as I do at the moment. These Blairites are now ensuring that Labour cannot win the next election. They are betraying the party they claim to serve, not saving it.

They are betraying the people...but nothing new there as the Blairites are quite fond of welfare cuts, snooping, grotesque WCA, and millions being plunged into destitution. But then they would be as most are more Tory than actual Tories. Good riddance to despicable rubbish.
I don't think they are ensuring Labour cannot win an election that is probably coming quite soon, especially if, as many want, Corbyn actually asserts himself and sacks a few more. There is such a surge of support for him, even from those dispirited at his seemingly going against a lifelong dismissal of EU and encouraging Remain.
These MPs now need to be deselected so the rubbish doesn't sit around on backbenches still voting along with Tories.
And yes, it is most likely being engineered by Blair, Campbell, Mandy in a bid that Corbyn has no say when Chilcott comes out and so Corbyn cannot call for 'Tone' to stand trial.

lyko

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Re: So... Labour..
« Reply #42 on: Jun 26, 2016, 08:24:37 PM »
Well, Coaker, Malhotra and Alexander are all of the left of the party. Coaker even made the core group plus on the fabled Labour Hostile list and most of the others were neutral.

I don't think you can call this the Bonfire of the Blairites.

Offline Sorted.

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Re: So... Labour..
« Reply #43 on: Jun 26, 2016, 08:25:55 PM »
^I think you can add Karl Turner to that list. Safely.

lyko

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Re: So... Labour..
« Reply #44 on: Jun 26, 2016, 08:45:48 PM »
Yes, absolutely Sorted. This isn't a Blairite coup. Uncomfortable as that may be.

And I get the point about Corbyn being on TV as much as Alan Johnson but there's one big difference. Corbyn is the leader of the Labour Party, the leader of the Opposition and as such should be out there vocally supporting the wishes of his members, which were overwhelmingly to remain.

I mean, much as I like Tom Watson, what the fvck was he doing posting pictures from the silent disco at Glasto a couple of days after the most seismic political event this generation. The Conservative party are imploding and the only politician who is behaving like a leader with any kind of plan is Nicola Sturgeon. Where is everyone else?

You can't tar everyone with the Blairite brush because they disagree with you. No, I didn't want Corbyn but theres plenty of people who did vote for him who now don't want him either.