Author Topic: Negotiation  (Read 2763 times)

Offline Arig

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Re: Negotiation
« Reply #15 on: Jul 04, 2015, 02:10:48 PM »


LUCKILY this non experienced Submissive that chose me is into what I am into, so it works both ways, I get to indulge in my all-time favourites, fear plays, intensive emotionally cathartic play, gaslighting, head fucks, consensual non consent, deep submission...

Between them and my girlfriend I sort of hit the play jackpot this last year  ;)  :D


I am not bragging, just lucky!! I think it's karma, I fucked up enough not so great people in just the right way and now I deserve somethings just for me...

Offline millicent

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Re: Negotiation
« Reply #16 on: Jul 05, 2015, 02:14:52 PM »
Someone who is very inexperienced and just didn't know what her hard limits were. She told me after we'd played that several people had refused to play with her because of this and had even called her 'dangerous'!

I do get the 'not knowing what your limits are'. Because how do you know?
Unless you try.
Preferably more than once.
Just to be certain.  :D

(I am still a little bit perplexed how I spent so many years being almost crippled with anxiety about so many stupid little things, yet have never felt anything but a gleeful 'bring it on' attitude towards BDSM related activities. My counsellor doesn't get it either.)

I picked mine from a generic list from Dossie Easton's Bottoming Book, but there aren't many and are mostly things like 'I don't play with someone who is drunk/ off their head on drugs' rather than relating to 'activities' (apart from two.)

Anyway - I'm not sure I understand the 'it's dangerous' reaction.
Yes, it might possibly be dangerous if after negotiation top and bottom stopped communicating completely (verbal and non-verbal) and the top rigorously stuck to some script, whatever happened and no changing of mind permitted. But it's not like that, is it?

Or maybe I've just been incredibly lucky so far.

'if you take away the cake, the icing is meaningless.'

Offline pure evil

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Re: Negotiation
« Reply #17 on: Jul 05, 2015, 07:03:25 PM »
Anyway - I'm not sure I understand the 'it's dangerous' reaction.

I think I get it. I remember negotiating with someone who when I asked what their limits were said 'I don't know', which made me pause and consider carefully because of bad experiences in the past. What that has meant at times, and what I wish to avoid, is when the other person expects ME to take full responsibility for both of us, more an kind of abdication of responsibility on their part. It's not a nice situation to be in.  :-\

Offline marzipan gnome

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Re: Negotiation
« Reply #18 on: Jul 05, 2015, 07:24:02 PM »
Anyway - I'm not sure I understand the 'it's dangerous' reaction.

I think I get it. I remember negotiating with someone who when I asked what their limits were said 'I don't know', which made me pause and consider carefully because of bad experiences in the past. What that has meant at times, and what I wish to avoid, is when the other person expects ME to take full responsibility for both of us, more an kind of abdication of responsibility on their part. It's not a nice situation to be in.  :-\

I think because not knowing your limits is associated with newbies and there seems to be an assumption that newbies will not be able to communicate if they like something or not to the satisfaction of the top.

Offline pure evil

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Re: Negotiation
« Reply #19 on: Jul 05, 2015, 07:24:31 PM »
Also, to add to this, if you think about what a fraught environment the Berlin scene can be in terms of communication.... well.  :-\

Offline marzipan gnome

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Re: Negotiation
« Reply #20 on: Jul 05, 2015, 07:26:46 PM »
..and another add I do think some tops thinks they are meaner and play harder than they actually do...and what FK's other party said about bottoms not being marshmallow.  Not all newbies need 'play light'.   ;D

Offline fetishkitty

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Re: Negotiation
« Reply #21 on: Jul 05, 2015, 07:27:47 PM »
Anyway - I'm not sure I understand the 'it's dangerous' reaction.

I think I get it. I remember negotiating with someone who when I asked what their limits were said 'I don't know', which made me pause and consider carefully because of bad experiences in the past. What that has meant at times, and what I wish to avoid, is when the other person expects ME to take full responsibility for both of us, more an kind of abdication of responsibility on their part. It's not a nice situation to be in.  :-\

Yeah, that...

It doesn't feel like that kind of abdication of responsibility though...if it had, I doubt I'd be playing with them again.

There's always a tricky balancing act for me around the idea of 'control', and since my recent very uncomfortable experiences with someone who massively topped from the bottom (and called it 'feedback', sigh) I've been even more aware of it. There are a lot of people who think that the bottom ultimately controls the scene...you just have to read a few writings on Fetlife to see how prevalent that idea is. And yes, the bottom can call a halt to things with one word. But so can the top. I've safeworded before now as a top. Not very happymaking, but doable. Anyway, in some ways having carte blanche with this person makes me feel like I'm totally in control. She didn't approach me asking for any particular kind of scene, which some people do, so I get to decide what happens. I'm also enjoying coming up with creative ways to 'check-in' (usually giving a choice of horrible options...mwahahahaha) since she doesn't give a great deal of vocal reaction...my absolute pet hate in play is the 'green' safeword. Ugh. So all round it's working for me.

But yeah, I can see why some people might think she is 'dangerous' to play with. Luckily I like a bit of danger ;) What's the worst that could happen? Actually, no, don't answer that...

kitty

Offline pure evil

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Re: Negotiation
« Reply #22 on: Jul 05, 2015, 07:35:24 PM »
Anyway - I'm not sure I understand the 'it's dangerous' reaction.

I think I get it. I remember negotiating with someone who when I asked what their limits were said 'I don't know', which made me pause and consider carefully because of bad experiences in the past. What that has meant at times, and what I wish to avoid, is when the other person expects ME to take full responsibility for both of us, more an kind of abdication of responsibility on their part. It's not a nice situation to be in.  :-\

Yeah, that...

It doesn't feel like that kind of abdication of responsibility though...if it had, I doubt I'd be playing with them again.

There's always a tricky balancing act for me around the idea of 'control', and since my recent very uncomfortable experiences with someone who massively topped from the bottom (and called it 'feedback', sigh) I've been even more aware of it. There are a lot of people who think that the bottom ultimately controls the scene...you just have to read a few writings on Fetlife to see how prevalent that idea is. And yes, the bottom can call a halt to things with one word. But so can the top. I've safeworded before now as a top. Not very happymaking, but doable. Anyway, in some ways having carte blanche with this person makes me feel like I'm totally in control. She didn't approach me asking for any particular kind of scene, which some people do, so I get to decide what happens. I'm also enjoying coming up with creative ways to 'check-in' (usually giving a choice of horrible options...mwahahahaha) since she doesn't give a great deal of vocal reaction...my absolute pet hate in play is the 'green' safeword. Ugh. So all round it's working for me.

But yeah, I can see why some people might think she is 'dangerous' to play with. Luckily I like a bit of danger ;) What's the worst that could happen? Actually, no, don't answer that...

kitty

That bolded part is what I was trying to get at. My experience was 'damned if I do, damned if I don't', anything short of impeccable mindreading skills on my part wouldn't have cut the mustard. As the person in question wanted me both to 'take control' and yet bend over backwards while doing so. This was years ago and I was a relatively new top - now I read that kind of stuff as a red flag. Not so much topping from the bottom as massively passive aggressive.

Whereas what you currently describe FK sounds quite different, that person has handed over control.
(also loathe green)
« Last Edit: Jul 05, 2015, 07:38:33 PM by pure evil »

Offline millicent

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Re: Negotiation
« Reply #23 on: Jul 05, 2015, 08:04:26 PM »
What that has meant at times, and what I wish to avoid, is when the other person expects ME to take full responsibility for both of us, more an kind of abdication of responsibility on their part. It's not a nice situation to be in.  :-\

Ok. I see how that would be shitty.



Anyway. I think I'd like to propose a toast for tops who aren't put off by new-ness.  ;D
'if you take away the cake, the icing is meaningless.'

Offline Arig

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Re: Negotiation
« Reply #24 on: Jul 09, 2015, 09:05:28 PM »


I like using the colour system, depending on person and how well I know them I check in more or less, I use it also at the beggining to double check I am reading body signals correctly, but often end up not checking it very often at all, a couple of times and if there is a good chemistry I can read the person. It is great for when trying seriously different things that they do not know at all how they will react, so I dp in and out, check in... and as Green is "all good, keep on with whatever you want", I like green... Is it the colour system that puts you both off Green or are you talking about something else?

Offline pure evil

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Re: Negotiation
« Reply #25 on: Jul 09, 2015, 09:15:48 PM »
Is it the colour system that puts you both off Green or are you talking about something else?

Obvs can't answer for FK, but I don't like green because I don't like being told what to do. If some one signals 'slow down' or 'I'm close to my limit' ...all fair and good. But 'Green' feels like I'm being asked to service top. Begging on the other hand is quite attractive. I like communication, but I'm more likely to play along the lines of 'can you take some more for me' or watch very closely and time the breaks some one needs, to the point of 'Ok. Do you think you can do it again?'. Maybe it's a subtle difference but loads of the pleasure for me is in the control.

Offline Arig

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Re: Negotiation
« Reply #26 on: Jul 09, 2015, 09:53:15 PM »


I think maybe my use of the colour system is different?

ie. I have decided to play with humiliation/insults and hard pain at the same time or interrogation with drowning or emotional play head fucking gaslighting things with someone for whom this is new. I always have managed to see the second anything is not right, but I like to double check, even with someone I know well, when I am starting something that for them is hardcore as it is new and they have no idea of feelings that will result.

So as a double check system I do what I want/play/am skipping along happily and will at some point sort of "step out of role" and connect with them eye to eye and ask "Colour?" and they answer Green if all ok, yellow to warn me something is off or just tell me what is wrong. Sometimes I do not even step out of role, depends on situation and person, I may simply scream in their face "COLOUR??". Scares the shit out of some people, which is fun for me, and to play with me I demand that when I say, ask, scream or demand to be answered on colour they must come back to themselves, check what they are feeling and how they are and answer me truthfully, if they do not know, they have to tell me they do not know.

I do not need to ask for them to communicate with me at any time any thing they want to, but with things I know are possible to be a deeper play than they imagined at first, I tend to double check during their first time. Maybe I am using it weirdly, but I do like to be "psycho bitch" on people for their first time playing with fear and scream COLOUR at random times, it adds to the loony look...  :P

Offline pure evil

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Re: Negotiation
« Reply #27 on: Jul 09, 2015, 09:56:39 PM »
^^^ sounds like a great use of the traffic light system  ;D

(I was talking more of physical play, I've heard others use 'green' as 'go harder/more' personally have never used it.)

Offline Arig

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Re: Negotiation
« Reply #28 on: Jul 09, 2015, 10:01:15 PM »


Yew! Green for some people means "harder/more"? Put some batteries up my ass and call me Mail-Order-Dominant!!! No. No no no. That is not for me.


I never heard of that use of the traffic lights, how funny. We are all in same communities often, but you never get exactly the same information as everyone else!

Offline pure evil

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Re: Negotiation
« Reply #29 on: Jul 09, 2015, 10:26:34 PM »

Yew! Green for some people means "harder/more"? Put some batteries up my ass and call me Mail-Order-Dominant!!! No. No no no. That is not for me.

EXACTLY!!  ;D