Author Topic: Humiliation  (Read 2293 times)

mint

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Humiliation
« on: Apr 21, 2015, 01:08:10 PM »
Do you like it? Hate it?
Think it's playing with fire?
If it turns you on is it always 'OK'?

Offline pure evil

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Re: Humiliation
« Reply #1 on: Apr 21, 2015, 02:23:03 PM »
Ooh, interesting topic mint. Humiliation, where to start? IMO it's a VAST topic which could mean any number of things to different people. Yes it's something I play with a lot, although it's one of the forms of play that takes a bit more negotiation to set up at the outset. I'm always curious about exactly what others find hot and humiliating. I often start by checking out if there are key words or themes to steer clear of, tho if I click with some one the enthusiasm of even starting to chat about our similar bent can easily run away with us. I'm definitely a psychological player and like things that tweak the mind of a submissive. A big fan of consensual non-consent, I can also be highly verbal in play. As a dominant I like to know that I have super active and self possessed consent from the person I'm playing with. In aftercare or some kind of later post play check in, I like to be reassured that 'Yes that was so filthy and fucked up.....and I loved it and totally wanted to do that'.
« Last Edit: Apr 21, 2015, 02:24:37 PM by pure evil »

Offline pure evil

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Re: Humiliation
« Reply #2 on: Apr 21, 2015, 02:26:24 PM »
Probs haven't exactly answered your questions, but I think I also have from a more practically embedded POV.

mint

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Re: Humiliation
« Reply #3 on: Apr 21, 2015, 03:36:36 PM »
'Yes that was so filthy and fucked up.....and I loved it and totally wanted to do that'.
:D
That's the point, isn't it?

I sometimes think it's the 'so wrong' element along with the humiliation itself, or sometimes they're one and the same thing.

What brought this to my mind was I was reading something that said or recommended that you don't ever play with something that attacks someone's core values (I think the example given was that if they view themselves as intelligent, don't call them stupid). I just found it a bit hard to wrap my head around because I think every situation is a bit different and I don't necessarily see the problem (enough for there to be the idea of a blanket rule) - but then I wondered if I was missing something. If I know I'm not x y or z, yet x y or z is exactly what flips a switch, what's the issue with that?

Offline pure evil

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Re: Humiliation
« Reply #4 on: Apr 21, 2015, 03:56:33 PM »
'Yes that was so filthy and fucked up.....and I loved it and totally wanted to do that'.
:D
That's the point, isn't it?

I sometimes think it's the 'so wrong' element along with the humiliation itself, or sometimes they're one and the same thing.

Kind of sums it up for me  ;D

What brought this to my mind was I was reading something that said or recommended that you don't ever play with something that attacks someone's core values (I think the example given was that if they view themselves as intelligent, don't call them stupid). I just found it a bit hard to wrap my head around because I think every situation is a bit different and I don't necessarily see the problem (enough for there to be the idea of a blanket rule) - but then I wondered if I was missing something. If I know I'm not x y or z, yet x y or z is exactly what flips a switch, what's the issue with that?

That core values idea seems like a basic guideline. In my experience this has also been about how much trust there is in the relationship, I'm more likely to play 'deep stuff' with people I know well. From the top side it's about being able to play the 'Evil Fucker', say and do stuff that might feel scarey for all involved, while at the same time we BOTH know that I absolutely do NOT think those things about the other person. So it's something that demands safe intimacy, either because I have a strong connection to the person and/or I know the other person is experienced and knows how to handle their own desires. Here I'm talking about edgeplay style humiliation.

Other times it's more a case of breaking down laughing at the end of things 'Oh my god! SO WRONG!! and SO HOT!!' Cos its FUN.

mint

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Re: Humiliation
« Reply #5 on: Apr 21, 2015, 05:07:03 PM »
I think this is why I'm not a fan of blanket rules, although I appreciate they apply to some situations obviously.

That level of trust is part of what can make it so erotic... well, I think so anyway. Or the act of letting someone do something that may feel quite shameful, but you're letting it happen... or you feel that it's an act you 'shouldn't' - in the loosest possible sense - be doing (maybe goes hand in hand with the 'so wrong'!). I don't know if I'm explaining the 'shouldn't' thing very well as there are some things logically I feel there should be no problem with, yet there's some kind of illicit psychology attached to it.

And yeah, if both people weren't on the same page and both people weren't getting something good out of it, it wouldn't be much fun. And without a connection, or fun, or something positive (whatever form that might take), what is there?

Offline KJTheFemme

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Re: Humiliation
« Reply #6 on: Apr 21, 2015, 05:30:54 PM »
<------Getting out the notepad and learning something new   8)
I think I can pretty much say am not into humiliation purely because it makes me feel terrible not the aforementioned wrong but oh so hot type feeling. Obviously some people are turned on by it and I don't think anyone has the right to tell another person what should or shouldn't turn them on. As long as the humiliator and the humiliated are in agreement, all power to them. Yes. Think it has risks but it all does right  :)

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Offline Arig

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Re: Humiliation
« Reply #7 on: Apr 22, 2015, 01:00:56 AM »
Love it. Do it. Agree with what PE said but cannot write.more as.I only have phone with net and it does.My.head in!! Hard to type and format.

Offline Arig

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Re: Humiliation
« Reply #8 on: Apr 22, 2015, 06:05:40 PM »

Now that I have a little time at real computer wanted to add some more!

I like to play with humiliation/degradation, mental torture, gaslighting and head fucking and psychological twisting of events/probing into submissive's minds and *not so secret to me* desires as well as consensual non consent... I do not play with any of this without a very big amount of trust from MY side. It is par de course to say Submissives must trust the Dominant, but to me I will not play with what I like (above mentioned list) if I am not sure I can trust a Submissive a lot.

I have to trust their feedback during and after play, trust their negotiation abilities, their self knowledge and I really must feel I can trust their enthusiastic consent. It is a long term investment, playing with same person often and establishing a connection you can build on to better fuck with their head (if that is what they are also into).

Within establishing trust and a connection I trust the Submissive to tell me exactly what I can and cannot push. I don't find myself having pre conceived ideas about what buttons one *should not* touch. In fact, I have found that most submissives I have played degradation or humiliation with could more easily offer their core values to be fucked with, because they felt secure in their skin and within this core, so they would tell me they feel it is easier to separate play from reality. One submissive said of course I can call them stupid or ignorant, they know very well they are not, they do not believe this of themselves in any way, so it is hot to be so insulted in play, but I was never to use any body shaming kind of degradation as they get enough head fucks about this from the world, and feel insecure.

I have encountered more restrictions and boundaries around traumatic events and memories and/or areas where the submissive feels insecure than boundaries around core values where the person feels secure of their feelings and self-worth.

Although, given the choice, I choose to play more often with the submissives who enjoy and want to explore their weaknesses within psychologically challenging play, so their weaknesses WILL be brought out, put in a row and paraded around for me to mock, dismiss and piss on. Very cathartic play that reveals amazing things but mostly not for engaging with strangers, long term play partners is more the place where these things can happen for me.

mint

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Re: Humiliation
« Reply #9 on: Apr 22, 2015, 10:23:17 PM »
KJ: Yeah, I pretty much agree although I think some things carry more risk than others - well, in my view. I don't mean across the board necessarily - like x is risky, y is not - but I mean more in terms of what constitutes one person's risk maybe doesn't constitute another's - in so much as it's all individual. There are definitely things that do nothing for me or that I view as risky that other people probably wouldn't bat an eyelid at.

Arig: If someone's actual weaknesses are being brought out and pissed on and mocked isn't that close to actual humiliation - by that I mean the distinction between humiliation you may enjoy and humiliation to the point of being dismantled? Or is that the point? And someone's coming through the other side stronger? I think, quite probably, that's a line I couldn't cross (although I suspect I'm into much milder forms of humiliation than the ones you mention).

I was thinking earlier and wondered if the reasoning behind core values not being attacked is that if something, for whatever reason, goes wrong and someone's core values are dismantled then it would be more dangerous than if that happens with something that's not a core value. I could be wide of the mark there. But I agree that it seems to make more sense that feeling secure around an issue is of more importance than whether it's a core value or not!

Offline pure evil

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Re: Humiliation
« Reply #10 on: Apr 22, 2015, 10:44:51 PM »
I was thinking earlier and wondered if the reasoning behind core values not being attacked is that if something, for whatever reason, goes wrong and someone's core values are dismantled then it would be more dangerous than if that happens with something that's not a core value. I could be wide of the mark there. But I agree that it seems to make more sense that feeling secure around an issue is of more importance than whether it's a core value or not!

This could happen in any number of situations, not necessarily during a consensual humiliation play. For example in relationship dynamics that don't work well people could be negatively re-enacting and compounding core value hurt.

I can think of a few different kinds of play where very vulnerable stuff can be used as hot material for play:for example some age play, consensual non-consent, humiliation play (and overlaps of those). I think all psychological play requires awareness on both sides and good communication. I don't think it always has to be 'heavy', because often people do know themselves well and are able to take responsibility for what they like.


Offline Arig

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Re: Humiliation
« Reply #11 on: Apr 22, 2015, 11:17:19 PM »
The sort of cathartic play I have done I find it extremely hot as the amazing trust that has to exist both ways makes me feel very strong, powerful and even though loathed for what I am putting My partner through, I am in a way, loved and trusted to a big extent.

 For the submissive side, different people will have their reasons for wishing to engage in such play or even finding it hot, but from talking to partners there are some things mentioned I can totally feel it with them, the courage to look at themselves in the worst possible mirror and be reflected back by a sadistic bitch who punishes and mocks them on top of it all.

There is for some a sense of relief at being within a space where they are allowed to admit to their most shameful thoughts about themselves, and whilst I parade and mock these, I also will always try to lovingly bring them to a close in different ways, it depends on what is appropriate for our connection or the situation. It can be to offer repentance, a possibility for absolution or prove to them, with logic and violence that they are wrong. Ending this play, the close of the issue, is as important to me as the beginning if not more. Hence the catharsis.

For me sometimes the puzzle that it creates, how to close the doors we opened, is in itself one of the most interesting parts of this play.

It is not so easy to explain how two people can be playing and know each other, and suddenly, I will see it clearly, what this person fears most about themselves, and should we already have covered such negotiations, I will pick at that thread until they are undone, true, but I would not leave them undone.

"If something goes wrong"?

Then I refer back to the relationship established with this person for their trust in me and work on putting what went wrong back to rights. To an extent, after all they are consenting adults! If I have a connection with this person we should be able to work through this, to a certain extent, they HAVE to take responsibility for their own mental health and for their choice of play.

I see now I finish writing this that PE is also responding to the something going wrong, and totally agree, all plays have their risks, we all have the freedom to consent, and relationships, romantic or familial, can just as easily produce more damage.

Offline Arig

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Re: Humiliation
« Reply #12 on: Apr 23, 2015, 12:23:49 AM »
Er... I should mention, that My feelings on the need for closure only concern specific situations and plays, certain types of humiliation or *doors* are quite happy open and ready to be used for hot play that relies on the sick sick degrading and humiliating experience of shameful abuse, with no need for any kind of closure on the submissive or My part. Different people different boundaries, different needs, different energy different connection different play...


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mint

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Re: Humiliation
« Reply #13 on: Apr 23, 2015, 12:30:47 AM »
This could happen in any number of situations, not necessarily during a consensual humiliation play. For example in relationship dynamics that don't work well people could be negatively re-enacting and compounding core value hurt.

I can think of a few different kinds of play where very vulnerable stuff can be used as hot material for play:for example some age play, consensual non-consent, humiliation play (and overlaps of those). I think all psychological play requires awareness on both sides and good communication. I don't think it always has to be 'heavy', because often people do know themselves well and are able to take responsibility for what they like.

pure evil: To be honest, talking about core values being affected adversely, I'd argue that it's more likely to occur outside of a BDSM setting, for a variety of reasons, but I'm probably going off topic. Part of the reason why I don't like blanket rules regarding wide topics (e.g. humiliation) is that I don't understand how someone is assuming to have the authority to know what's OK or what isn't OK for every single person who chooses to engage in it. And yes, I agree about not always having to be heavy.

Arig: I'm not saying I agree, or disagree, with the thing about core values that I read. I'm just trying to see their line of reasoning. I think it depends on the core value as well. In fact, often, I know what I think personally (and what's right for me) but I want to know what other people think. Why? Because it's worth a lot, different perspective.

I think, for me, the reasoning behind it - why it's done, why it works (e.g. trust) - is more important than the act itself. It's really hard not to talk in specifics here but I'm going to try to. What I mean is, taking an act in isolation, that in itself, says nothing. It's what's behind it that's the point, the power, or more like the true act. Like you say, you wouldn't leave them undone. And likewise they wouldn't leave you undone, I would hope.


Offline Arig

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Re: Humiliation
« Reply #14 on: Apr 23, 2015, 12:54:06 AM »
It IS difficult to write in specifics, I understood you didn't necessarily agreed or disagreed with the core value blanket statement, I was trying to give My side of why I want to play with this subjects, but not sure if it explains or clarifies anything :-p