Author Topic: 50 Shades of Grey  (Read 4337 times)

Offline Run

  • Gingerbeer Virgin
  • **
  • Posts: 65
  • Gingerbeer.co.uk - The Lesbian Guide
Re: 50 Shades of Grey
« Reply #15 on: Feb 07, 2015, 01:22:01 PM »
I ve started reading it but I wasn't able to go further than 100 pages.
And I am not going to watch the film, at all.

Lodjur

  • Guest
Re: 50 Shades of Grey
« Reply #16 on: Feb 07, 2015, 02:05:05 PM »
Can you break someone's nose because you love them? (I remember someone who had this as a fantasy). Are there things that are never OK, even if there's consent? Hypothetically if it turns me on can you cause real damage? Or is that wrong? Where's the line drawn? Who gets to decide what's ethical and what's not?
Some people (general public) will see all forms of violence as wrong, never mind the intent. I
Thank you for your post, it put me on the right track understanding my own point of view!

I think that rather than being a matter of giving consent to someone's fantasy or wish is all about you wanting to receive that thing.

Of course is never right to do something to someone on the ground of your love: what about rape?

And I think that the core of this thread is about that skewed take on consent based on reacting instead of acting: if someone has a fantasy that you are not really into, giving consent is actually submitting to abuse. Real consent is about being willing to be at the receiving end of an action because you enjoy it, it gives you satisfaction, pleasure, it empowers you or your bond with that person and so on... and that's why you look for someone who is on your page.

And it's right to highlight that something cannot be really consensual no matter what someone claims: if what you wish to receive is actually harmful, than is not ok. It is just not possible that someone feels good for real with some broken bone. Self harm can disguise itself, and it does not requires BDSM for that: what about those girls that worship anorexia?

So you have to really look at how safe is for your body and mind and if, given that, you feel good after that experience.

Offline millicent

  • 'masochistic fembot'
  • GB Testers
  • Gingerbeer Lifer
  • *****
  • Posts: 21,909
  • terms and conditions apply
    • Be breast aware.
Re: 50 Shades of Grey
« Reply #17 on: Feb 07, 2015, 03:09:46 PM »
Bob Flanagan was a performance artist with cystic fibrosis.
His obituary summarises things better than I could:
http://www.nytimes.com/1996/01/06/arts/bob-flanagan-43-performer-who-fashioned-art-from-his-pain.html

I very much like his poem 'Why'
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nWtgdnuNiKQ
'if you take away the cake, the icing is meaningless.'

Lodjur

  • Guest
Re: 50 Shades of Grey
« Reply #18 on: Feb 07, 2015, 05:41:58 PM »
If you like explain what you disagree on, it makes for an interesting thread for those who read it.   :)

Quote
What about giving consent to something that isn't your fantasy but you know it's their fantasy? I don't necessarily think that's wrong at all (or abusive).
Maybe not necessarily but that might be the case for an experience that is neutral for you.
If it is something you dislike or makes you feel bad, why agree? And why on Earth someone that cares for you (or have self-respect) would ask you to do something that put you in a negative mood?
Even if it comes to activities that are neutral for you, you have to step aside and put this person first to do that: it's ok from time to time, but what if it becomes routine or is not mutual? It can became a hook and the first stage of asking you to become an empty shell for the other person wishes, like you are worth nothing. I would be careful with that.

On a personal note, about 50 Shades: I've seen the trailer, I will never understand how someone would date a person with such a different "status". He has money, power (owns a company), skills (glider pilot), and she has nothing at all. Whatever floats her boat, but I would never put myself in such an unbalanced situation.

Offline fetishkitty

  • Beware the scary pheremones...
  • Gingerbeer Goddess
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,494
  • And.....she's back!
Re: 50 Shades of Grey
« Reply #19 on: Feb 07, 2015, 08:47:45 PM »
Quote
And it's right to highlight that something cannot be really consensual no matter what someone claims: if what you wish to receive is actually harmful, than is not ok. It is just not possible that someone feels good for real with some broken bone. Self harm can disguise itself, and it does not requires BDSM for that: what about those girls that worship anorexia?

Woah...did I just read that? Really? I can't consent to something that is 'harmful'? Says who? And who decides 'harmful'? Where is that line drawn? At bruising? Breaking the skin? Breaking a bone? Suffocating someone until they pass out? Suffocating someone until just before the pass out? Leaving a mark that lasts for a few hours? A few days? A week? Kicking someone? Slapping them? Piercing their skin with needles? Permanent piercings? Temporary piercings? Tattoos?

You should google 'Spanner legal case'...a judge decided what you did, that people couldn't consent to activities that they very happily did consent to.

I can consent to anything I damn well like, regardless of how much supposed 'harm' it does me. To say otherwise is violating my consent.

kitty

Lodjur

  • Guest
Re: 50 Shades of Grey
« Reply #20 on: Feb 07, 2015, 09:29:39 PM »
Of course you can consent to what you want, but from a psychological point of view does it makes sense that you consent to something that makes you feel bad, that is someone that you deep down don't want to? Of course can you consent even to death if you commit suicide, so in absolute terms you are right. But we are talking about BDSM here: is something supposed to be an enjoyable activity, not an expression of self-hatred or self-harm. There is counseling for that. We have a choice to do BDSM and it does not stand to reason that we engage in something that gives us a negative feedback. You won't even eat a food that tastes awfully to you or that you are allergic to. You might eat rotten shark if you like it but is a fact that you like that taste and it does not send you to the hospital.

Besides, I don't think there is any reason to see my opinion as an attack to your free will or something. Is my personal take on BDSM and the "sane" part of SSC in my opinion is that you seek from BDSM something positive that add to your well being.

It is part of my personal sense of responsibility to advice a girl who worship anorexia and claim to feel beautiful in a bony body to seek help, and not to congratulate her on her "happiness". In the same way I would not encourage a self-hating sub that explore masochism as a way to get the punishment or trashing s/he deserves for being unworthy.

Also I don't think BDSM has anything to do with turning a blind eye on real harm, not just physical but emotional: as a relationship between two humans it has to be healthy. So yes, you draw the line.

Offline fetishkitty

  • Beware the scary pheremones...
  • Gingerbeer Goddess
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,494
  • And.....she's back!
Re: 50 Shades of Grey
« Reply #21 on: Feb 07, 2015, 09:39:33 PM »
Just because you think something is causing harm and therefore 'not enjoyable', does not mean that the person is not enjoying this activity.

I gave someone a beating with a heavy rubber truncheon last weekend. They are still black and blue, a week later. For three days afterwards they could barely walk. They told me it was one of the most enjoyable BDSM experiences they have had. Yet, for most people, that would be too far, too much pain, too 'harmful'. So most people wouldn't consent to a beating like that...and Therefore I wouldn't give them one. But for this person, that pain, that 'harm', is absolutely enjoyable. So yes, in one sense you are right: people won't consent to non-enjoyable BDSM activities (although it should be noted that some people 'enjoy' being made to do things they definitely don't find enjoyable...again, these people can totally consent to doing that)...but your mistake seems to come where you have decided that 'nobody' could enjoy an activity (eg breaking a bone) and therefore need to be saved from themselves. You are wrong.

kitty

Lodjur

  • Guest
Re: 50 Shades of Grey
« Reply #22 on: Feb 07, 2015, 09:54:47 PM »
Quote
people won't consent to non-enjoyable BDSM activities
So we both agree with that, the problem seems with the definition of "enjoyable", if I understand you correctly.
Is there anything that can have someone say: "no, this is self-harm and I do not believe you when you call it enjoyable"? It seems that the answer for you is no.
I understand that there is a huge grey area, the activity that you described is without doubt very subjective: someone finds it appalling, someone finds it wonderful. I respect both of this opinions, and I'm totally fine with people who engage in that as with people who run away.
To me there is a line beyond the gray area: broken bones, damages to internal organs, ending up in a wheelchair, mutilations... I think that some serious psychological issue intervenes in skewing someone's perception to the point of making them welcome this circumstances in their lives. What is the meaning of "sane" for you? And "safe"?

Quote
I don't think equating anorexia with BDSM is a good idea at all. In fact, that has kind of blown my mind.
I don't equate an activity that I partly enjoy with a mental illness, I am trying to say that if you have an underlying mental issue you can lose capacity when it comes to BDSM.

Quote
I don't think BDSM is 'meant' to be anything and you can seek from it what you want.
As with everything in life, but I personally doubt that the purpose of life is self-damage and unhappiness (regardless of BDSM).

Slantrhyme

  • Guest
Re: 50 Shades of Grey
« Reply #23 on: Feb 07, 2015, 10:02:04 PM »
Chodder= shit where I come from, which is what I've heard the books are, and probably the film as well. My sister and mum loved the books, which says a lot

Lodjur

  • Guest
Re: 50 Shades of Grey
« Reply #24 on: Feb 07, 2015, 10:22:06 PM »
Oh I agree you can do something because the pleasure you derive is not from the act but from your partner's pleasure! There is something you like in the act however: the fact that it brings pleasure to your partner. Totally understand. Of course, as long as it does not become an habit like you live and die to please someone disregarding your needs and well being. And it has to be something you are ok to begin with and not breaking a hard limit, right?

Offline fetishkitty

  • Beware the scary pheremones...
  • Gingerbeer Goddess
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,494
  • And.....she's back!
Re: 50 Shades of Grey
« Reply #25 on: Feb 08, 2015, 10:32:17 AM »
You're still not getting it, Lodjur. Let me break it down for you.

'People won't consent to non-enjoyable activities'
Note, I said 'won't, not 'can't'...there's a big difference. I know plenty of people who work on the princicple of 'consensual non-consent' where they give their partner blanket consent to do whatever they like, regardless of anything else. I know people who work on an 'owner/property' model, where consent is based on trust that the owner will not permanently damage their property, but they can do, if that is their wish. As lemonflower points out, for some people the enjoyment comes from the consent, rather than the activity.

I say again, you do not get to judge what other people find enjoyable. Even if that activity causes permanent harm or death. Do you say skydivers cannot find their hobby enjoyable? Or other extreme sports enthusiasts? It is not up to you to declare that this or that is not 'safe' or 'sane'...and anyway, plenty of people (myself included) do not subscribe to SSC.

Basically, stop worrying about what other people are doing consensually. It's none of your business.

kitty

Offline Guineapig

  • Promoter
  • Gingerbeer Devotee
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,379
  • *meep meep*
    • The Yoga Club
Re: 50 Shades of Grey
« Reply #26 on: Feb 08, 2015, 12:33:02 PM »
The red flag I have over this is that we live with a global pandemic of violence towards women.
It's constructed and sustained by all sexes and we're massively acculturated into it through the media.
And I have a horrible, horrible feeling that popular porn of this nature will legitimise and fuel more of the same.

kitty, I think you said that context is important.
Agree.
Totally.
The saturated media context I'm referring to is a violent rape culture.

Media popularised BDSM porn + media fuelled violent rape culture = really, really worries me.
Gingerbeer Yoga Thread
  
*meep meep*

Lodjur

  • Guest
Re: 50 Shades of Grey
« Reply #27 on: Feb 08, 2015, 01:51:41 PM »
fetishkitty, before answering your point, let me get rid of this:
Quote
Note, I said 'won't, not 'can't'...there's a big difference.
Quote
you do not get to judge what other people find enjoyable
Quote
It is not up to you to declare that this or that is not 'safe' or 'sane'
Quote
stop worrying about what other people are doing consensually. It's none of your business.
I am not judging someone based on the activities s/he perform. And I'm not interfering in someone's life telling what they are "authorized" to do according to my book. I want to be accepted for who I am and live freely, so I believe I owe the same to everyone else.
But I have every right to form an opinion in my mind about something and live by that opinion until I change my mind. And I have every right to express that opinion.
If you feel differently I am fine with the fact that you live with coherence and I'm genuinely interested in your hows and whys.
That doesn't mean that I have to change my mind to avoid accusations of being judgmental or interfering: I want to be known on this board for who I really am, and I will never accept to let people believe that I approve or think well of something if it's not the case: I'm not a hypocrite nor a people pleaser.

Quote
Do you say skydivers cannot find their hobby enjoyable? Or other extreme sports enthusiasts?
That's a good comparison because I feel that this hobbies and BDSM have something in common, but even if I am enthusiast about some extreme sport I would not do some of the riskiest like base jumping, and I think that some people can became addicted to the adrenaline and/or try to compensate for the lack of a meaningful life with this "shock" and I also think that this kind of issues can cloud judgment.
The bottom line is that I do not think that people can sanely engage in activities that result in permanent harm. I do not deny that a given very dangerous activity gives something rewarding to the person who experience it, but being sane means to evaluate properly the costs/risks and benefits, and also solving a problem in one area (from unhappy to happy) by creating a problem in another area (from healthy to disabled) is not a sane way to deal with life.

Quote
plenty of people (myself included) do not subscribe to SSC.
We can open a thread on that, it could be interesting. I think that SSC is a general rule in life, and that C does not create S and S automatically.

Lodjur I am more risk aware consentual sex (rack) than ssc.
As are many others.
We all have our own limits. When I was working as a prodomme, men used to contact me and ask me to rape them. Sure!
No really rape them. Like hurt them so much they safe worded, then ignore their safe word and just keep going.
I said "no thanks, I don't do that. That's not within my hard boundaries. I don't play without safe word use with people I don't know well"
I think that this is an entirely mature way to deal with things (not judging you, I just feel comfortable with your line of thought).

Quote
I think many of them just liked the fantasy of it.
I have a lot of fantasies that I would never want enacted.
That passage is a very helpful one, my opinion is that after all our life is all about mediating between our fantasy world and real world.

Quote
But I also enjoy being owned and made to do things I don't like because someone else likes them.
The "make me do things I know I hate" is not my cup of tea, mainly because the things I hate are on my hard limits list. I might not be happy at all with what the Dom wants to do now, but that activity is drawn from a pool of agreed things. Anyway I appreciate very much your feelings and the way you expressed them!  :)

Quote
Also, from being who I am and liking what I like, I've had to hear a lot of people say "really that's just self harm though. You are sick. You need help and love" while telling my partner "sick abuser"
Wow that would piss off everyone. Judging you as a person, as in "you are sick". I think that we all engage in self harm and foolishness because of unresolved issues, and I'm no stranger to that myself, and I don't believe that this should affect the overall opinion on someone (unless you harm people intentionally but that's not the case here!). 
Besides, there is really a grey area when consenting to something that for someone else is abusive is just a subjective matter, and I still respect people who do things that makes me cringe because hey, it's just me cringing and not the world coming to an end. l just draw the line when I think is not anymore a matter of taking calculated risks with awareness of the consequences but being self destructive (there is an element of permanence in the outcome).
« Last Edit: Feb 12, 2015, 12:06:25 AM by Lodjur »

Offline fetishkitty

  • Beware the scary pheremones...
  • Gingerbeer Goddess
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,494
  • And.....she's back!
Re: 50 Shades of Grey
« Reply #28 on: Feb 08, 2015, 05:25:45 PM »
Quote
I am not judging someone based on the activities s/he perform.

Quote
The bottom line is that I do not think that people can sanely engage in activities that result in permanent harm.

kitty

Lodjur

  • Guest
Re: 50 Shades of Grey
« Reply #29 on: Feb 08, 2015, 06:28:22 PM »
What's the problem with that?

Quote
The bottom line is that I do not think that people can sanely engage in activities that result in permanent harm.

It is my opinion. Am I forbidden to think like that or to express myself?
I have not insulted anyone that is doing something that I think bad of, nor I have suggested that they should stop.