Gingerbeer.co.uk - Messageboards

Worksafe => Discussion, Chat and Gossip => Topic started by: Madge Hooks on Jul 27, 2018, 02:50:21 PM

Title: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Madge Hooks on Jul 27, 2018, 02:50:21 PM
There doesnít seem to be much lesbian chat or general fluff anymore. There seems to be an incredibly relentless focus on trans this and trans that. From what I can see, the main provenance seems to be Mumsnet in conjunction with a specific ďlesbian allianceĒ group. This has now spilled over onto these boards,

After the fabulous resource Gingerbeer message boards has provided to lesbians and bi women over the years, I would lament that its sole focus has become attacking the trans community at every turn.

Mumsnet have been pulled up on it. Here are some links.

Has Mumsnet become a hotbed of online transphobia? (https://www.huckmag.com/perspectives/opinion-perspectives/mumsnet-transphobia-online)
The anti-trans community on Mumsnet is something of an open secret. It has been present for years, and it appears that there has, for a while, been a lax approach to tackling this particular form of hate speech.

Back in 2014, Mumsnet clarified their position on moderating transphobic posts, saying ďtransphobia is not welcome on MumsnetĒ


In response to this criticism, Mumsnet have now published these moderation guidelines:

Mumsnet statement on moderation in particular with regard to trans rights (https://www.mumsnet.com/info/trans-rights-moderation-policy)

How do we hold ourselves to a better standard? How do we ensure that transphobia is not welcome on Gingerbeer?

I would be happy to volunteer to work with the Admin and Moderation team on these boards to pull together some posting guidelines specifically related to Gingerbeer.

Many thanks,
Madge
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Betty Croker on Jul 27, 2018, 04:16:54 PM
Would you like to actually quote the hate speech you are complaining of?

It looks as if by ďhate speechĒ you mean anyone saying anything you disagree with.

Weíve got guidelines for breaching privacy and abusing people. You ignore them. You purported to identify me publically on here as someone pictured at a protest when there was angry mob chasing them. The fact that you screwed up and it wasnít actually me doesnít excuse your intention. Youíve sat back and done nothing, when other guidelines have been broken by people on your team. including posters being abused and threatened with job loss. So why do you think we should follow guidelines drawn up by you.

Plus you have the reading comprehension level of a five year old daschound and couldnít be trusted to  faithfully interpret anything more complex than a pamphlet for pile cream.

Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Lyco on Jul 27, 2018, 04:42:28 PM
Madge, I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Earl on Jul 27, 2018, 04:43:39 PM
Madge, you are a shit-stirrer and no mistake. What do you hope to gain? Might you pen an article for a shit mag?

No-one's writing fluffy stuff anymore? No, you're not, are you. You've turned up again on this board to promote this topic. And this alone. Your cheerleading for Top is simperingly embarrassing. You used to be funny, ffs.

You and a few others agitate politically elsewhere, it seems. Most of the rest of us are merely chatting. In a minority unhateful kind of way.

Leave GB alone, you creep.

My offer: if it seems necessary to update any guidelines, I volunteer to help...as long as Madge, and others who would create a public fuss/harm GB for their own gain, do not take part.

Fucking grr.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Earl on Jul 27, 2018, 04:46:03 PM
Madge, I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

I'm quoting this, in case it's deleted. Madge and Lyco too, it seems, have no regard for this site.

Edit: I say no regard but 'nuke it from orbit' is a tad more than that, isn't it.

Q. Is 'Orbit' the Pink Paper or some such?
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Lyco on Jul 27, 2018, 04:59:36 PM
I can't recall ever deleting anything I've said (unless it was very personal, but I think I only did that once, years ago). And for the record, I may have RTM'd the odd post, but certainly not recently and I have never asked for a thread to be pulled until today.

You're missing the point. It is precisely because I do have a regard for this site that I have made the points I have. But honestly, after Betty's post, where is there to go? We can't even have a civil discussion about the way forward, instead, this thread has predictably turned into a personal pile-on on Madge within one post which may even be a record.

Madge, I would love to think that finding a third way, or indeed anyway, to discuss this stuff and agree boundaries would be possible but I just don't think it is.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Earl on Jul 27, 2018, 05:04:31 PM
You've asked for a thread to be 'pulled'? Do you mean 'locked'?

I often want 'to nuke' things I have a regard for, too. Just kidding, you disingenuous, destructive muppet.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Betty Croker on Jul 27, 2018, 05:09:15 PM
Lyco, your team mate Madge exposed me (incorrectly) on here as a Pride protestor, attacked people as having mental health problems, your wife has threatened to get posters sacked and hurled every term of abuse imaginable at anyone here who had the temerity to disagree with her and you finally complain itís ďgot personalĒ because I said Madgeís comprehension skills werenít up to the job!

The fact that you would rather get this Forum closed than live with the fact that someone, somewhere has a different opinion from you, is what you should be concerned about. Itís control freakery of a scary degree.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Blythe on Jul 27, 2018, 05:30:11 PM
Would you define the word terf as hate speech Madge Hooks?

(Better go check with your friend who used it ad nauseum on my thread).

If you want to use mumsnet as a guide then cis is also not allowed as its offensive to so many women.

I won't be engaging with this thread again because as earl says, Madge and Lyco seem to prefer killing off GB rather than engaging with the most important topic since the 70s for LGBT and women.
The impact of trans ideology on everyone.

 
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Jul 27, 2018, 05:58:31 PM
Ok, so Madge wants new rules so nobody is allowed to say anything she doesnít agree with, and Lyco would rather shut down this site than allow anyone to say anything she doesnít agree with.
 Well that sums up their position nicely doesnít it, for anyone who was still in any doubt?
 Thank you for showing us who you are, again.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Madge Hooks on Jul 27, 2018, 07:00:09 PM
A lot of people are accusing me of things, assuming what I want and know nothing of my experience/credentials.

The fierce protection of wanting to peddle transphobic content with impunity is incredibly troubling. There is little evidence of self regulation, even down to name-calling and swearing, as shown in this thread, as well as elsewhere. The trust to self regulate has gone.

I would definitely like to see a third way to have some balance restored and to clean up this message board. It isnít just a message board for one particular ideology.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Wolfgang on Jul 27, 2018, 07:03:14 PM
Quote
I would be happy to volunteer to work with the Admin and Moderation team on these boards

The what now?
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Madge Hooks on Jul 27, 2018, 07:07:23 PM
Quote
I would be happy to volunteer to work with the Admin and Moderation team on these boards

The what now?

Iím assuming these must still exist, even if very remotely/quietly? There must be someone responsible. Mind you, I wouldnít want to be responsible for this.

I shall wait and see if anyone gets in touch. Like some kind of seance....
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Madge Hooks on Jul 27, 2018, 07:09:12 PM
In other news, I donít have a delete button. Is this normal?
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Lust for Life on Jul 28, 2018, 07:45:09 AM
There doesnít seem to be much lesbian chat or general fluff anymore. There seems to be an incredibly relentless focus on trans this and trans that. From what I can see, the main provenance seems to be Mumsnet in conjunction with a specific ďlesbian allianceĒ group. This has now spilled over onto these boards,

After the fabulous resource Gingerbeer message boards has provided to lesbians and bi women over the years, I would lament that its sole focus has become attacking the trans community at every turn.

Mumsnet have been pulled up on it. Here are some links.

Has Mumsnet become a hotbed of online transphobia? (https://www.huckmag.com/perspectives/opinion-perspectives/mumsnet-transphobia-online)
The anti-trans community on Mumsnet is something of an open secret. It has been present for years, and it appears that there has, for a while, been a lax approach to tackling this particular form of hate speech.

Back in 2014, Mumsnet clarified their position on moderating transphobic posts, saying ďtransphobia is not welcome on MumsnetĒ


In response to this criticism, Mumsnet have now published these moderation guidelines:

Mumsnet statement on moderation in particular with regard to trans rights (https://www.mumsnet.com/info/trans-rights-moderation-policy)

How do we hold ourselves to a better standard? How do we ensure that transphobia is not welcome on Gingerbeer?

I would be happy to volunteer to work with the Admin and Moderation team on these boards to pull together some posting guidelines specifically related to Gingerbeer.

Many thanks,
Madge

Well Madge, is there a prize for hypocrisy? I just scrolled back through your posts and had to click through pages and pages of trans-related posts before I finally found a headings from threads about dogs and puppies, on June 15. (I didn't actually read them, I've seen them all before, I just looked at the thread titles.)

What exactly are you accusing people of? If there are one-issue posters on here, you're certainly one of them.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Jul 28, 2018, 10:17:35 AM
LFL, iím just treating this thread as a hissy fit, because certain people donít want any light shed on the thing they are desperately trying to defend. Sunlight being the best disinfectant in this case, and they know it, otherwise they wouldnít be going to such lengths to suppress it.  Itís just another attempt at #NoDebate but the genie is out of the bottle now Iím afraid, and it wonít go away.
What TRAs and their allies somehow fail to realise is that theY are the most efficient peaktrans machines going, just ask Alison Moyet. It truly is something to behold.   
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Trifle on Jul 28, 2018, 11:18:47 AM
What iím not quite sure of is whether they just havenít grasped the arguments or that they have and theyíre being deliberately antagonistic and obstructive.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: PushingThru on Jul 28, 2018, 06:55:27 PM
In other news, I donít have a delete button. Is this normal?

No. Unless you mean a delete thread button. What is it you want to delete?
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Madge Hooks on Jul 29, 2018, 01:09:42 PM
I donít wish to delete anything, thread nor post. I want this thread to remain as visible as possible.

Itís just that Iíve noticed other people mention deletion, ie. ďIím quoting this in case [the poster] deletes itĒ. I guess itís one of the only modes of Ďupper handí tactic ::) available from the functionality. As I donít see a delete option myself, I initially assumed modification, but increasingly am thinking that other people can actually delete their posts.

Itís probably down to my user profile as a Promoter.

^ This was incredibly dull, I admit.  ;D
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Betty Croker on Jul 30, 2018, 10:03:50 AM
https://youtu.be/QqDB27Lx6n0

Donít know what reminded me of this.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Julesô on Aug 01, 2018, 01:11:00 PM
This appears to be a common pattern with trans supporters.

Losing an argument or people not toeing the line?  Shut them down.

Its almost like you are scared of what might happen if you allowed an open discussion.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Aug 01, 2018, 04:45:55 PM
 When I first started hearing about these issues, when Blythe posted the original thread, I had absolutely no idea what was going on. I came at it from the point of view of knowing several people who identify as trans, and excepting them for who they are, and defending their right to be themselves. I havenít wavered from that position as far as it goes, but what I didnít realise, was what was happening to the rights of women and children in the name of trans equality. Ginger Beer has been very helpful in this respect, because itís given me an entry into the wider debate. I think that had it not been discussed on here, I certainly wouldnít know as much as I do now, and might well not know anything at all, so thank you Blythe, for bringing this to mine, and probably many other peoples attention.
 The erosion of the rights of women and children, and the efforts of certain male bodied people to trample over their boundaries and destroy their safe spaces is a topic definitely needs talking about, a lot. #Nodebate and move along, nothing to see here, draws a massive, public X marking the spots exactly where we need to dig, after all, why would anybody want to make a secret of something thatís completely innocuous? When these people show themselves, we are looking, and we see them.         
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Marty. on Aug 01, 2018, 09:47:00 PM
Yes. Thanks Blythe. I also would have had no idea but now I do.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Marty. on Aug 01, 2018, 10:05:00 PM
A few years ago, I needed to reduce the number of friends I had on Facebook. Two of those people were transgendered but it was nothing personal, I just didn't know them well enough and I had met everyone else. I had nothing against those two people and I still don't. I have thought about it since and those people may have taken it personally just like I probably would have done. Hopefully they were not too bothered. I deleted my Facebook eventually. I just don't like it.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Trifle on Aug 02, 2018, 10:11:08 AM
Yep @ Slanty.

Itís also been useful for me in seeing the detail of how some people view boundaries and consent in general.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Madge Hooks on Aug 02, 2018, 02:33:49 PM
Receiving and accepting wholesale second-hand - even third-hand - information through the lens of an already biased entity is hugely problematic.

Why, itís a lot like reading The Daily Mail!
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Betty Croker on Aug 02, 2018, 05:04:50 PM
Yep @ Slanty.

Itís also been useful for me in seeing the detail of how some people view boundaries and consent in general.

Absolutely. The ďI donít want you to have boundaries because I might find myself on the wrong side of themĒ point expressed was really illuminating. As was the correlation between people who see respecting other peopleís space as merely optional and their consent something they are prepared to ignore generally with those who always centre trans interests to the detriment of womensí.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Trifle on Aug 02, 2018, 06:13:57 PM
^ Yes indeed, Betty. Iím noticing that correlation in my daily life now too. Very helpful in deciding who I do and donít want to spend time with.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Aug 02, 2018, 06:39:02 PM
 Yes, itís certainly been an eye-opener.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Chewwy on Aug 03, 2018, 05:03:04 AM
There are a lot of congratulatory and gloating posts on here.  Which sucks, when you think about the serious debate we are supposed to be having.   :-X
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Lust for Life on Aug 03, 2018, 07:32:24 AM
There are a lot of congratulatory and gloating posts on here.  Which sucks, when you think about the serious debate we are supposed to be having.   :-X

True, but it also sucks that the original poster started by whingeing about single issue posting, but when picked up on her own single issue posting, she did nothing about that either.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Betty Croker on Aug 03, 2018, 10:59:12 AM
Would it be unfair to characterise your contributions to that serious debate, Chewwy, as to cast doubt on the concerns raised by others regarding potential abuse from womens spaces including self idíd Transwomen and suggesting that others experiences of sexual abuse in public were not shared by you and may not be as widespread as suggested?

Is that a fair summary?

So when a self idíed transwoman who has been advising the government that all such concerns are scaremongering appears to have been exposed as engaging in the sort of behaviour women were concerned about in the first place you could either accept you may be wrong or characterise those women who appear to have been vindicated as gloating. Or you could do both. The last one involves the least credit.

When you factor in that those women who are supposedly gloating have been subject to death threats, threats to their employment and dismissed as liars and haters for simply stating the obvious, then Iím not surprised to be honest. Did you criticise their opponents for their lack of a somber tone when they were calling them smelly breathed, badly dressed, poor, middle aged or stupid? Nah.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Aug 03, 2018, 11:04:48 AM
There are a lot of congratulatory and gloating posts on here.  Which sucks, when you think about the serious debate we are supposed to be having.   :-X

 I donít see it that way. This thread started with a call from the OP to moderate our language and the things we are allowed to disguss, followed by another poster expressing a desire to have this website shut down. I donít see gloating, I see posters calling out the OP on the attempted silencing of important issues, followed by discussion about what would be potentially suppressed, and the fact that this website has been invaluable to some of us in opening our eyes to whatís going on.
 Nobody has said anything hateful on here, and we are certainly not gloating about issues that might have a serious detrimental impact on the rights of women and children. We have the right to speak to each other about things that affect us, and we exercising that right on here.     
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Aug 03, 2018, 11:10:18 AM
 If weíre talking about pointless piss taking and mockery, I refer you to the poll that Wolfie started in DCG.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Madge Hooks on Aug 03, 2018, 03:48:43 PM
No. Mockery would be me starting a poll to see if people have actually read 1984.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Wolfgang on Aug 03, 2018, 04:07:19 PM
^ Wouldn't be pointless mockery though.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Lust for Life on Aug 03, 2018, 07:57:03 PM
No. Mockery would be me starting a poll to see if people have actually read 1984.

A) I don't get this, would you care to explain?
B) it might help you out of the single-issue rut.
C) I have, by the way.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Aug 03, 2018, 11:21:49 PM
 No, you starting a poll to see if people had read 1984 would be you starting a pole to see if people have read 1984.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Chewwy on Aug 05, 2018, 01:06:56 AM
Would it be unfair to characterise your contributions to that serious debate, Chewwy, as to cast doubt on the concerns raised by others regarding potential abuse from womens spaces including self idíd Transwomen and suggesting that others experiences of sexual abuse in public were not shared by you and may not be as widespread as suggested?

Is that a fair summary?

So when a self idíed transwoman who has been advising the government that all such concerns are scaremongering appears to have been exposed as engaging in the sort of behaviour women were concerned about in the first place you could either accept you may be wrong or characterise those women who appear to have been vindicated as gloating. Or you could do both. The last one involves the least credit.

When you factor in that those women who are supposedly gloating have been subject to death threats, threats to their employment and dismissed as liars and haters for simply stating the obvious, then Iím not surprised to be honest. Did you criticise their opponents for their lack of a somber tone when they were calling them smelly breathed, badly dressed, poor, middle aged or stupid? Nah.

Aye, it's a fair summary I guess.  Are you referring to Slanty's post re' being poked in the back by transwomen's penises (peni?)

(this is the best I can do at a cut and past quote so bear with...)

"Quote from: Slantrhyme on Jul 19, 2018, 04:32:52 PM
Quote from: Marty. on Jul 19, 2018, 01:57:00 AM
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6804433/transgender-lag-sexually-abused-four-female-prisoners-days-after-arriving-at-west-yorkshire-jail/

#ThisNeverHappens
 Like being stuck on a bus or train with that perv sticking his, I mean her,  cock in your back, but not being able to get off. Oh yes, weíve all had it happen. Those poor women

Really? 

It's never happened to me (trans woman anyway), or anyone I know. "

The Bus Thing.  It hasn't happened to me or anyone I know (transwoman with penis), has it you?  And I do take into account the case you've mentioned.  I'm hoping there's more going on there and that said person's is an anomaly with a whole heap of issues.  Once again... hoping.

And my comment about gloating was aimed at ALL in this debate, over all the trans threads, both sides.  GB is on it's knees, and I get this debate has brought a lot of people back.  But it has got nasty at times.  Posters have been verbally ripping each other's throats out / getting at each other for past grudges etc.

And Betty - of course the online death threats/contact with employers etc are wrong.  Did you think I was okay with that?

Lastly I'm wondering if anyone's changed their opinion as a result of our threads?  I hope so, as I can only see people becoming more firmly entrenched.

Proper lastly - I know I'll regret typing this post, as I'm shit at debates that are not face to face - so'll probably pop back to 'Whatever You Fancy'. 

As we were...  ;)

Edited for bold '' clarity (hopefully).

Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Wolfgang on Aug 05, 2018, 07:36:09 AM
Quote
Lastly I'm wondering if anyone's changed their opinion as a result of our threads?  I hope so, as I can only see people becoming more firmly entrenched.

Well, I still would like to understand whether TWAW isn't a circular definition or whether it doesn't matter if it is but I'm not too fussed either way.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Lust for Life on Aug 05, 2018, 07:59:35 AM
@ Chewwy: my fence-sitting is as strong as ever, does that count as entrenched? ;) ;D

Seriously, I really value the positives of this whole debate. I am better informed on both sides.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Chewwy on Aug 05, 2018, 09:57:35 AM
Mine too LfL.  And I'm glad you've found some positives coz' I havn't.   :-\

Wolfie - what the bobba's TWAW?
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Aug 05, 2018, 11:48:55 AM
Twaw = transwomen are women, and the definition is circular.
 The bus post was partially pointing out the ridiculousness of saying *her* penis.  There is no female/lady/girl dick, a penis is a penis, and the only person who can have a penis is a male.
 This board has changed my mind actually. I was firmly in the people can be what they say they are camp at the beginning. Still my opinion as far as it goes, but when it gets foisted on everyone else to the point of invading spaces and eroding definitions my tolerance ends. Personal choices should should *not* impinge on other peoplesí right to safety, privacy and dignity. Itís as simple as that really.       
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Chewwy on Aug 05, 2018, 12:04:42 PM
Thanks Slanty, and Wolfie.  I'll probably never get the whole circular TWAW ting' definition, but ne'mind.

I'm glad it has changed some minds, gives me a little joie de vivre for the day.  But can you clarify Slanty... did the 'trans penis nudging you in the back, on a bus' thing actually happen, multiple times, or was this a thought of what could happen in the future?

I'm not being facetious by the way, just need to know if I've read correctly.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Aug 05, 2018, 09:20:37 PM
 Iíve had unwanted cocks shoved into my back twice on crowded buses. What the owners of said cocks identified as I donít know, but then I wouldnít would I,  but uninvited penis is uninvited penis, and itís all the same to me.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Chewwy on Aug 05, 2018, 10:42:18 PM
So it didn't happen then?

Would this be the same as arguing that an immigrant has taken your job?  You didn't meet the person, but they still may have been an immigrant?
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Aug 05, 2018, 11:29:15 PM
Chewwy, you seem to be trying to nail me to the wall here about something, but Iím not quite sure what.I likened being stuck in prison with a creepy predatory male with being stuck on a crowded bus with some pervert pushing their erection into your back, something that has happened to me and many other women, but in this case the women canít just get off the bus. Iím not sure what youíre trying to read into my posts, or why youíre trying to read something that isnít there, or why you even consider this the most important thing out of the 2000 odd posts on these threads,  but they have been clarified by myself on this thread and the other, so whatever, crack on. Arguing with you about this is not number one on my priority list.   
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Betty Croker on Aug 06, 2018, 01:12:51 AM
I'm not sure if she's misreading your original post or just missing the point.

How would you know whether the person pressing their penis in your back identifies as trans or not, Chewwy? It's an internal process.

Some trans woman have penises and beards. Some of them even identify as non-binary some of the time, male some of the time and women some of the time. We're told time and time again that you can't tell someone's gender by looking at them.

She didn't say an immigrant stole her job. She said someone with a penis poked it in her back on public transport, twice. The jumping around with pronouns to describe it was meant to express a distinction without a difference. That's how I read it.

Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Betty Croker on Aug 06, 2018, 01:24:40 AM
And Betty - of course the online death threats/contact with employers etc are wrong.  Did you think I was okay with that?


Does it matter whether you are privately ok with it or not? If you don't speak up against it you might as well be all for it.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Kirin on Aug 06, 2018, 09:56:46 AM
Are you saying that since we can't tell if someone with a penis is a man or a trans woman, it follows that every predator is possibly a trans woman and every trans woman is possibly a predator? Isn't this like saying the huge majority of emigrants are fine but there's a few possible terrorists and criminals in there and we can't tell which is which so we can't risk them being in our space? People argued in favour of section 28 saying they didn't care what gays got up to in theory but it safeguarded against paedophiles having a free rein to prey on children.
I don't have a problem sharing spaces with trans women, I probably have already and never noticed because I've never had a 'lady dick' waved in my face. I don't know how often this happens. I don't know anyone who's been called anti-trans because they turned down a trans woman in a bar. I don't know how widespread this problem is. I've been called racist after turning down an Asian woman, but don't consider myself racist and just laughed it off. I have experienced harrassment and assault if that has any bearing on this.

Obviously I'm against sharing women's spaces with predators, either men or trans women, but I can't bring myself to campaign against an entire group of people (trans) because any rights given to them might be exploited by psycho predators who may be trans women or may be men. There are psychos within every strata of society, do we use them as a guideline to decide how to treat whole groups of people? Maybe time will prove that I'm on the wrong side.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Betty Croker on Aug 06, 2018, 10:24:59 AM
Are you saying that since we can't tell if someone with a penis is a man or a trans woman, it follows that every predator is possibly a trans woman and every trans woman is possibly a predator? Isn't this like saying the huge majority of emigrants are fine but there's a few possible terrorists and criminals in there and we can't tell which is which so we can't risk them being in our space? People argued in favour of section 28 saying they didn't care what gays got up to in theory but it safeguarded against paedophiles having a free rein to prey on children.
I don't have a problem sharing spaces with trans women, I probably have already and never noticed because I've never had a 'lady dick' waved in my face. I don't know how often this happens. I don't know anyone who's been called anti-trans because they turned down a trans woman in a bar. I don't know how widespread this problem is. I've been called racist after turning down an Asian woman, but don't consider myself racist and just laughed it off. I have experienced harrassment and assault if that has any bearing on this.

Obviously I'm against sharing women's spaces with predators, either men or trans women, but I can't bring myself to campaign against an entire group of people (trans) because any rights given to them might be exploited by psycho predators who may be trans women or may be men. There are psychos within every strata of society, do we use them as a guideline to decide how to treat whole groups of people? Maybe time will prove that I'm on the wrong side.

Section 28 was about prohibiting positive references to homosexuality in education. It didn't put any woman in a prison cell with a prisoner with a penis.

There was no evidence whatsoever that paedophiles were more likely to be gay or immigrants more likely to be criminals or terrorists. There's a mountain of evidence that male bodied people commit sexual and violent assault against women. However they identify in their heads.

Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Aug 06, 2018, 11:12:03 AM
 Iím interested to know how many women and girls have to be attacked by psychos and predators, or missing out on sporting accolades  it would take for trans allies to think itís a bad idea to allow male bodied people into womensí spaces and sport?
 Weíve already had women harassed, intimidated, and touched against their will in prisons and homeless shelters, schoolgirls being masturbated at in the showers after PE, girls and women missing out on sports medals that theyíve trained long and hard for because they have no chance against a male,   and a very prominent trans-activist has been revealed to have posted pictures of themselves flashing their penis in public on an Internet blog, along with posting pictures of child rape. How many women are you prepared to take as collateral damage so male bodied people can have what they want?     
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Wolfgang on Aug 07, 2018, 01:07:01 AM
Some trans woman have penises and beards.

So they get criticised if they look too conventionally like men and criticised for reinforcing sex stereotypes or mutilating themselves if they look too conventionally like women   Can you sketch out the acceptable margin of existence for them pls?
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Betty Croker on Aug 07, 2018, 01:14:14 AM
Some trans woman have penises and beards.

So they get criticised if they look too conventionally like men and criticised for reinforcing sex stereotypes or mutilating themselves if they look too conventionally like women   Can you sketch out the acceptable margin of existence for them pls?

Itís a fact not a criticism or a call for ostracism. A fact pointed out to Chewy to contradict the idea that if you get an unwanted boner in the back on public transport, you can make a call as to the gender the person responsible for it identifies as.

Are you saying itís not a true fact?
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Chewwy on Aug 07, 2018, 01:38:54 AM
No, I read Slantrhyme's example as something that had actually happened to her. 

Then when I laughed, saying this hadn't happened to me or anyone I know (transwoman penis in nudging me in the back), you berated me for mocking / casting doubt on this.

Perhaps we should just stick to real situations, that have happened to us.  Not notional ones. 

And then you bring up 'death threats', which I mentioned I'm not okay with, and I STILL get it in the neck. 

What the f*ck is going on here???
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Betty Croker on Aug 07, 2018, 01:49:11 AM
What part of ďit did happen to herĒ donít you understand? The self identified gender of the person who did it is not possible to discern. She made that point. You keep missing it and describing her experience as fictional. Which it isnít.

The fact that you feel moved to complain about people supposedly gloating but havenít  said a peep about the death threats or the threats to report people to their employers until asked directly about it  puts your points in true perspective.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Chewwy on Aug 07, 2018, 02:03:51 AM
But not by a transwoman?
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Betty Croker on Aug 07, 2018, 02:08:49 AM
But not by a transwoman?

Transwoman is an internal self identification. It doesnít depend on looks.How would you know how that person identified? Thatís the point that you keep missing.

She has said time and time again that it makes no difference to her how the owner of the boner identifies and there is no way of telling the difference. What she cares about is keeping male bodied people out of womens spaces however they internally identify. Because safety for women is her priority.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Wolfgang on Aug 07, 2018, 02:50:52 AM
Some trans woman have penises and beards.

So they get criticised if they look too conventionally like men and criticised for reinforcing sex stereotypes or mutilating themselves if they look too conventionally like women   Can you sketch out the acceptable margin of existence for them pls?

Itís a fact not a criticism or a call for ostracism. A fact pointed out to Chewy to contradict the idea that if you get an unwanted boner in the back on public transport, you can make a call as to the gender the person responsible for it identifies as.

Are you saying itís not a true fact?

It is a true fact and it's also used to present them as encroaching p1ss takers.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Betty Croker on Aug 07, 2018, 08:15:02 AM
Some trans woman have penises and beards.

So they get criticised if they look too conventionally like men and criticised for reinforcing sex stereotypes or mutilating themselves if they look too conventionally like women   Can you sketch out the acceptable margin of existence for them pls?

Itís a fact not a criticism or a call for ostracism. A fact pointed out to Chewy to contradict the idea that if you get an unwanted boner in the back on public transport, you can make a call as to the gender the person responsible for it identifies as.

Are you saying itís not a true fact?

It is a true fact and it's also used to present them as encroaching p1ss takers.

Mostly by other trans women. And not helped by the pomposity of Alex Drummond's claim to be "widening the bandwith of how to be a woman." We've had a few daft, over-stretched comparisons to how wanting safe spaces for women is like racism well, imagine how African Americans might react to ethnically white "transblack" woman Rachel Dolezal claiming "I'm just widening the bandwith of how to be black". Would they be accused of being a "hate group" for failing to move over in their own spaces and rename themselves "Cis black" ? Or would their incredulity be met with total empathy? I think we both know its the latter.

From our early teens to the grave, our patriarchial society, has young girls and women pouring over themselves with shame and self loathing to eradicate all body hair. If only the people who spent their lives on internet crusades for bearded trans women were giving a fraction of their time and energy to change that culture for all women. If only.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Trifle on Aug 08, 2018, 10:01:20 AM
^ Yep, absolutely.

Iíve had a couple of conversations lately where Iíve enlightened women rolling their eyes at the idea of lesbian erasure as to why some people arenít too happy with the self ID proposals and Iíve been met with an ďohĒ and a light bulb coming on. Thatís clearly why we arenít allowed to talk about it, imagine what could happen. Certain ideas might actually be shown up for the harmful nonsense that they are.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Marty. on Aug 11, 2018, 02:33:33 AM
Would it be unfair to characterise your contributions to that serious debate, Chewwy, as to cast doubt on the concerns raised by others regarding potential abuse from womens spaces including self idíd Transwomen and suggesting that others experiences of sexual abuse in public were not shared by you and may not be as widespread as suggested?

Is that a fair summary?

So when a self idíed transwoman who has been advising the government that all such concerns are scaremongering appears to have been exposed as engaging in the sort of behaviour women were concerned about in the first place you could either accept you may be wrong or characterise those women who appear to have been vindicated as gloating. Or you could do both. The last one involves the least credit.

When you factor in that those women who are supposedly gloating have been subject to death threats, threats to their employment and dismissed as liars and haters for simply stating the obvious, then Iím not surprised to be honest. Did you criticise their opponents for their lack of a somber tone when they were calling them smelly breathed, badly dressed, poor, middle aged or stupid? Nah.

Aye, it's a fair summary I guess.  Are you referring to Slanty's post re' being poked in the back by transwomen's penises (peni?)

(this is the best I can do at a cut and past quote so bear with...)

"Quote from: Slantrhyme on Jul 19, 2018, 04:32:52 PM
Quote from: Marty. on Jul 19, 2018, 01:57:00 AM
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6804433/transgender-lag-sexually-abused-four-female-prisoners-days-after-arriving-at-west-yorkshire-jail/

#ThisNeverHappens
 Like being stuck on a bus or train with that perv sticking his, I mean her,  cock in your back, but not being able to get off. Oh yes, weíve all had it happen. Those poor women

Really? 

It's never happened to me (trans woman anyway), or anyone I know. "

The Bus Thing.  It hasn't happened to me or anyone I know (transwoman with penis), has it you?  And I do take into account the case you've mentioned.  I'm hoping there's more going on there and that said person's is an anomaly with a whole heap of issues.  Once again... hoping.

And my comment about gloating was aimed at ALL in this debate, over all the trans threads, both sides.  GB is on it's knees, and I get this debate has brought a lot of people back.  But it has got nasty at times.  Posters have been verbally ripping each other's throats out / getting at each other for past grudges etc.

And Betty - of course the online death threats/contact with employers etc are wrong.  Did you think I was okay with that?

Lastly I'm wondering if anyone's changed their opinion as a result of our threads?  I hope so, as I can only see people becoming more firmly entrenched.

Proper lastly - I know I'll regret typing this post, as I'm shit at debates that are not face to face - so'll probably pop back to 'Whatever You Fancy'. 

As we were...  ;)

Edited for bold '' clarity (hopefully).

A bit of an exaggeration don't you think?

Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Wolfgang on Aug 11, 2018, 02:37:24 AM
It's an understatement...
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Betty Croker on Aug 11, 2018, 02:20:59 PM
4 months ago it was about 60% less active than it is now. Which is not saying much. I suspect the worst thing that has happened to slow posting since then has been posters information being shared and used against them off the boards to threaten their employment and physical safety. Hardly an incentive for anyone to post.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Lyco on Aug 11, 2018, 04:08:01 PM
I know youíre not the really the type to indulge in any self reflection but I think the biggest barriers to people posting are your viciousness and the relentless transphobia on this board. Or so I am told.

Iím sure the other thread will creep up to 150 pages, the twenty or so being a succession of increasingly paranoid alt right links but thereís no debate to be had. Itís a bit sad that a once vibrant, engaged corner of the Internet has turned into Infowars but hey ho.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Betty Croker on Aug 11, 2018, 04:54:32 PM
My viciousness. Your posts appear to have become one long projection after another, Lyco.

There were no trans related threads before April and there was far less traffic on the site. Everyone here knows that. However, much you try to spin that one.

And by transphobia you again make a generalised smear against anyone who doesnít agree with you. Iím certainly not transphobic. And unlike your crew, I can leave political disagreements online without feeling the need to threaten to close the site down because Iím losing the argument or generally obsessing in real life about anyone who disagrees with me.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Wolfgang on Aug 11, 2018, 05:16:08 PM
4 months ago it was about 60% less active than it is now. Which is not saying much. I suspect the worst thing that has happened to slow posting since then has been posters information being shared and used against them off the boards to threaten their employment and physical safety. Hardly an incentive for anyone to post.

I didn't do that myself but it happened on Twitter, not here, they hadn't shrunk from putting their faces all over Pink News, and I didn't see any linking of real names to SM names except by the protesters themselves.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Betty Croker on Aug 11, 2018, 05:30:07 PM
4 months ago it was about 60% less active than it is now. Which is not saying much. I suspect the worst thing that has happened to slow posting since then has been posters information being shared and used against them off the boards to threaten their employment and physical safety. Hardly an incentive for anyone to post.

I didn't do that myself but it happened on Twitter, not here, they hadn't shrunk from putting their faces all over Pink News, and I didn't see any linking of real names to SM names except by the protesters themselves.

 ::) Oh yeah, it being posted on a thread on here that my security wasn't as fail safe as I thought and my work details and photo were being passed around, is clearly not relevant. Neither is seeking to out one of the banner holders as me, even if she got it wrong. She claimed to be basing her identification on the fact that she had met the person at a GB meet.

It might have happened on Twitter but reference was also made to info gleaned from GB.

You really think people are going to want to come and "share" after that? Its just basic bullying.

Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Wolfgang on Aug 11, 2018, 05:42:30 PM
Quote
Neither is seeking to out one of the banner holders as me, even if she got it wrong. She claimed to be basing her identification on the fact that she had met the person at a GB meet.

They thought Banner Left was you [as in Betty], but it's Banner Left's name demonios tomatoes, not yours.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Wolfgang on Aug 11, 2018, 05:43:57 PM
 *that's out there
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Betty Croker on Aug 11, 2018, 05:45:06 PM
What difference does that make?

People on here have said to me in private message that they are frightened to post their opinion because it might cause them problems where they work if they were reported. The inference being someone from here would contact their employer because they disagreed with them over politics.

What sort of McCarthyist country have we turned into? And why would that encourage anyone to take part in discussions on here?

Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Wolfgang on Aug 11, 2018, 06:02:19 PM
Quote
What difference does that make?

You're not realname doxxed as Banner Left, and since everyone knows what Banner Left looks like they're not going to mistake it for you in your work photo either.  Ergo your name and work photo wasn't "passed around" to the poster who misidentified you.  Or to me, FTR.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Wolfgang on Aug 11, 2018, 06:05:54 PM
Quote
People on here have said to me in private message that they are frightened to post their opinion because it might cause them problems where they work if they were reported. The inference being someone from here would contact their employer because they disagreed with them over politics.

What sort of McCarthyist country have we turned into? And why would that encourage anyone to take part in discussions on here?

I think you need to look to Mumsnet for spreading that kind of anxiety.


Out for now.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Betty Croker on Aug 11, 2018, 06:15:44 PM
Quote
People on here have said to me in private message that they are frightened to post their opinion because it might cause them problems where they work if they were reported. The inference being someone from here would contact their employer because they disagreed with them over politics.

What sort of McCarthyist country have we turned into? And why would that encourage anyone to take part in discussions on here?

I think you need to look to Mumsnet for spreading that kind of anxiety.


Out for now.

Iím not on Mumsnet. Youíre the one moaning about lack of traffic on here so Iím talking about on here.

As for the banner debacle - Madge tried on here to publically link me to my real life persona but failed because she had me down as the wrong person. She tried to breach my privacy but failed.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Wolfgang on Aug 11, 2018, 06:25:41 PM
Quote
People on here have said to me in private message that they are frightened to post their opinion because it might cause them problems where they work if they were reported. The inference being someone from here would contact their employer because they disagreed with them over politics.

What sort of McCarthyist country have we turned into? And why would that encourage anyone to take part in discussions on here?

I think you need to look to Mumsnet for spreading that kind of anxiety.


Out for now.

Iím not on Mumsnet. Youíre the one moaning about lack of traffic on here so Iím talking about on here.

As for the banner debacle - Madge tried on here to publically link me to my real life persona but failed because she had me down as the wrong person. She tried to breach my privacy but failed.


I think she linked Betty to Banner Left, who was already public.  Your real life persona doesn't come into it.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Betty Croker on Aug 11, 2018, 06:33:12 PM
She thought she was linking Betty to my real life persona. She just got it wrong. You need to go on an ďunderstanding privacy and boundariesĒ course, you lot.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Wolfgang on Aug 11, 2018, 06:42:08 PM
I think this is a de dicto and de re misunderstanding, and your logic is flawed.  Materially, she was only breaching your ID because she thought you were Banner Left.  You were not the subject, Banner Left was.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Betty Croker on Aug 11, 2018, 07:11:21 PM
I think this is a de dicto and de re misunderstanding, and your logic is flawed.  Materially, she was only breaching your ID because she thought you were Banner Left.  You were not the subject, Banner Left was.

Save the Latin crap for someone who is impressed by it Wolfie. Defending this low life behaviour only adds insult to injury.

She shouldnít have been trying to breach anyone from hereís privacy.

She shouldnít have been trying to link anyone from Gingerbeerís user ID to their real life identity. And ďbanner left womanĒ was clearly facially identifiable in the photos and the name was being bandied about on social media by the sort of scumbags who issue death threats and get people sacked.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Wolfgang on Aug 11, 2018, 10:01:31 PM
Save the Latin crap for someone who is impressed by it Wolfie.

OkÖ I *think* we are arguing over a non-substitutive belief ascription...

Quote
Defending this low life behaviour only adds insult to injury.

She shouldnít have been trying to breach anyone from hereís privacy

Madge is entirely able to fight her own battles but it seemed justified in its context.
http://boards.gingerbeer.co.uk/index.php?topic=116584.msg3665683#msg3665683
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Betty Croker on Aug 11, 2018, 10:13:27 PM
Save the Latin crap for someone who is impressed by it Wolfie.

OkÖ I *think* we are arguing over a non-substitutive belief ascription...

Quote
Defending this low life behaviour only adds insult to injury.

She shouldnít have been trying to breach anyone from hereís privacy

Madge is entirely able to fight her own battles but it seemed justified in its context.
http://boards.gingerbeer.co.uk/index.php?topic=116584.msg3665683#msg3665683

Only if you have creepy stalker values yourself. When you sign up for this website you agree not to post anything invasive of another users privacy - ie. not disclose information likely to lead to them being identified offline or in other places.

Which is exactly what she tried to do to me.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Wolfgang on Aug 11, 2018, 10:47:42 PM
No, she did it to Banner Left who was already entirely identifiable by virtue of hijacking Pride.  She thought BL was disclaiming knowledge of hijacking Pride.  I understand you were spooked by the error but she admitted she was mistaken.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Betty Croker on Aug 11, 2018, 10:53:24 PM
No, she did it to Banner Left who was already entirely identifiable by virtue of hijacking Pride.  She thought BL was disclaiming knowledge of hijacking Pride.  I understand you were spooked by the error but she admitted she was mistaken.

She thought I was Banner Left so she was trying to do it to me. And sheís not allowed to do it.

In terms of the invasion of privacy and the breaking of the sign up agreement it doesnít matter one bit whether Banner Left was making true or untrue statements. You donít get to pick and choose or justify who you ďoutĒ.

 
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Wolfgang on Aug 11, 2018, 11:24:19 PM
I see your point there I suppose.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Betty Croker on Aug 11, 2018, 11:40:37 PM
The person already named is not the only one with an account on here who was a protestor at Pride.

And they are as entitled to the sites privacy protections as I am.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Aug 12, 2018, 12:07:01 PM
 Trying to out somebody online is trying to out somebody online, regardless of whether the outer is correct or not. Itís the intent thatís the problem. I could throw a punch at you, miss and break my hand on the wall, but my intent to hurt you would still have been the same.
 Top threatened to do the same thing further up thread with a poster who had supposedly name changed. Itís not quite the same thing because it would only have been revealing a previous posting name, but people tend to know each other on here so the likelihood is that they would have been identifiable. Of course I got gaslighted and accused of all sorts of crazy shit when I called it out, but then again Iím not daft and could see exactly what was going on.  I might decide I want to be anonymous and   open a new account with a different name and someone could out me as Slantrhyme, and lots of people know who I am and have met me irl so the intent and affect would still be the same.
 When one has lived with someone who likes to Gaslight and use darvo for years, one tends to have a very sensitive radar for it, and it sticks out like a sore thumb.
 Regarding the premise of this thread, and the person who started it: the fact Wolfy that you are trying to defend this shit says a lot, both about the poster, and their motivation. For anyone who isnít drowning in Kool-Aid and desperately trying to defend misogyny itís very obvious.

 Edited to clarify, by up thread I meant up thread from the attempted outing of Betty, not this thread.  For anyone who may be lurking who doesnít already know, see the íhow far does your sexuality stretchí thread.         
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Wolfgang on Aug 12, 2018, 03:43:18 PM
Slanty, do you think you're the only person here who's been gaslighted?  I'm afraid you will find a plurality of experiences of that here and some of them disagree with you.

And Top was guessing.  I'm surprised that any long-time poster didn't guess it.  It was getting a little bit Emperor's New Clothes absurd all of us pretending we didn't recognise them.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Aug 12, 2018, 05:32:42 PM
And there you go with the yeah but but but excusing and defending it again. Give it a rest, itís so transparent.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Wolfgang on Aug 12, 2018, 06:39:43 PM
Top asked for permission to openly speculate on someone's online identity and didn't get it so didn't.

The last time that poster popped up, or maybe the time before, [i.e. in 2015] they outed Snowball's new GB ID with their first post.  Then Blythe outed them without pausing to ask for permission.  You were on the same page and said nothing.  And at least two of them have chucked around real life information on each other.

As long as everyone who does this is a misogynist and it's not just a synonym for "disagrees with me", go ahead and call it misogyny.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Aug 12, 2018, 09:42:06 PM
 Asked permission? You must have read a different post to me then, because what I read was a threat, at best passive aggressive,  *not* a request.
 When Iíve got a few minutes Iíll try and find it. I read over it several times at the time though, and my comprehension skills arenít known to be poor. 
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Wolfgang on Aug 12, 2018, 10:11:49 PM
http://boards.gingerbeer.co.uk/index.php?topic=116584.msg3664657#msg3664657

Just to remind you, she didn't actually out She Who Must Not Be Named, and you're ignoring that big wodge of hypocrisy I just mentioned.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Aug 12, 2018, 10:47:51 PM
 What hypocrisy?
 What Iíve seen: top threatening to reveal a posterís previous posting name; Madge incorrectly identifying Betty; top I think it was blethering on about doxxing Blythe;  and a poster, whose name I canít bring to mind, using another posterís real name, whether by accident or not Iím not sure. The latter three were flagged up by other posters, including Betty and Blythe themselves, and the former was flagged up by myself. There may have been other examples that I have missed, but I donít feel the need to jump in on a dog pile if people have already called things out.
 What you are conveniently ignoring though, is that I personally havenít indulged in any name-calling or mudslinging, or threats or attempts to out people. Maybe your ire would be better directed at those who have, but as youíve already stated, you donít feel the need to point out the bad behaviour of people on your side of the debate, so itís kind of a waste of time talking to you isnít it.         
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Wolfgang on Aug 12, 2018, 11:09:59 PM
What hypocrisy?

This:
Quote
The last time that poster popped up, or maybe the time before, they outed Snowball's new GB ID with their first post.  Then Blythe outed them without pausing to ask for permission.  You were on the same page and said nothing.  And at least two of them have chucked around real life information on each other.

What you are conveniently ignoring though, is that I personally havenít indulged in any name-calling or mudslinging, or threats or attempts to out people. .

Did I say you had?

Quote
Maybe your ire would be better directed at those who have, but as youíve already stated, you donít feel the need to point out the bad behaviour of people on your side of the debate, so itís kind of a waste of time talking to you isnít it.
       

From time to time I do.   But what I meant by my misconstrued comment was that I find misguided e.g. lesbians are more worth arguing against than misguided e.g. Republicans.

I'm more than happy to stop arguing about it though because we're both just seeing confirmation bias in each other.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Aug 13, 2018, 01:41:33 AM
Thankfully, peaktrans is what will be happening to the silent readers of this thread who see grown women arguing that correctly naming a child rapist and murderer is a hate crime

Itís a good job that never happened then! I asked if we actually had any reliable evidence that Huntley was actually transitioning or if it was just another groundless attempt to undermine the entire trans community, do you know?

Quote
that transwomen with the musculature and heft of the men they actually are have every right to beat females at sport

Letís hope that never happens while quietly remembering that itís got bugger all to do with the proposed changes to the GRA.
 
Quote
that there is no threat to female prisoners if you are to put rapists with male genitalia in their prisons; that women's spaces are up for grabs on the say-so of any man who wants in;

Bloody good job weíve got a Ministry of Justice to stop that sort of thing!

 
Quote
and that gender and sex are the same thing.

I shall keep my dictionary to hand and remain every watchful.

Quote
And that's putting aside the nastiness of the way this debate is being conducted: bullying and gaslighting women for having legitimate concerns.

I know, I was compared to a mouldy copy of playboy or somesuch earlier but it didnít make me hate trans people. Maybe thereís something wrong with me?

Quote
It's good to remember, once in a while, that the po-mo, queer theory nonsense being spouted here doesn't wash with most of the public.

No, the good readers of the Daily Mail wonít hold with that sort of thing, youíve had quite enough of those expert people and Tommy could well have been innocent or something.

Your writing styles seems familiar, is it acceptable for me to have at guess at who you previously were? I donít want to, like, dead name you or anything although, wonít be a hate crime becasue itís not an actual crime, but, you know, I wouldnít like to offend.


But I still donít know what #Peaktrans actually is, will you be hunting down the trans people to murder, removing their rights under the GRA or just being a bit mean about them?

 Yeah, looks like a right friendly request does that.
 I canít find the other posts you were on about Wolfie, and Iím not going to devote a lot of time to it. Iíve just listed everything I remember seeing, but the point is, Iím not actively trying to defend outing people online, or gaslighting women. Iím not the one writing, on the Internet, in words that everyone can read, that itís fine because theyFailed, so they didnít harm anybody,  or they didnít really do it did they, so shut up, or no, that was just a polite request but look at you, youíre a hypocrite because blah blah blah.
 Youíre using abusive tactics to defend shitty behaviour. People see you.   
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Aug 13, 2018, 02:23:24 AM
 Iím still awake although I shouldnít be, and I forgot to put my phone on do not disturb and heard the email alert so fuck it.
 Wolfy, if you want to continue our conversation, on hear is fine. 
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Wolfgang on Aug 13, 2018, 03:07:04 AM
My apologies, but I had to PM you that link or I would have outed Danny T, wouldn't I?

It sounds to me like you've been absorbed into the Mumsnet Borg, but given you've already decided I'm abusive, misogynist and not worth talking to, I suggest you leave me the fuck alone.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Aug 13, 2018, 02:44:47 PM
Ok, so Iíve just looked at that link you sent me which I wonít post here.
 So first off youíre calling me a hypocrite because I didnít condemn something that happened almost 3 years ago, which I wasnít really involved with much, in fact my post on that page that you alluded to just said *sighĎ*  but also youíre outing another board poster to me privately. To be honest I would have had no idea what the hell you were on about if it wasnít for your post directly above this one, because none of the usernames match up.
 My gosh Wolfie, have you been trawling peoples posting history to try and get something on them, just to try to get amo to try to deflect the fact that youíre defending shitty behaviour?  Seriously, have a word with yourself.
 And leave you the fuck alone? You messaged me, remember?

 Edited to correct silly error.   
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Aug 13, 2018, 08:17:20 PM
Top asked for permission to openly speculate on someone's online identity and didn't get it so didn't.

The last time that poster popped up, or maybe the time before, *[i.e. in 2015]* they outed Snowball's new GB ID with their first post.  Then Blythe outed them without pausing to ask for permission.  You were on the same page and said nothing.  And at least two of them have chucked around real life information on each other.

As long as everyone who does this is a misogynist and it's not just a synonym for "disagrees with me", go ahead and call it misogyny.

 Oh yeah, and nice bit of sneaky post editing. Iíve starred your edit because itís difficult for me  to bold.
 Wolfie, if you want people to stop calling you out on shit, stop fucking doing it, itís quite simple, really.
 Oh yeah, and youíve quoted yourself in the second post down on this page, so it was a bit of a waste of time really.

 Edited to add the last bit   
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Wolfgang on Aug 13, 2018, 08:30:59 PM

 My gosh Wolfie, have you been trawling peoples posting history to try and get something on them, just to try to get amo to try to deflect the fact that youíre defending shitty behaviour?  Seriously, have a word with yourself.
The outing and counter-outing was pretty memorable to me, no trawling required.  I believe it got GB shut down one night too, but you donít feel the need to reckon with the bad behaviour of people on your side of the debate, who by your standards would be abusive misogynists.

 

And leave you the fuck alone? You messaged me, remember?
 
I thought we'd agreed to, then you started again with Reply 92.

Quote
Oh yeah, and nice bit of sneaky post editing. Iíve starred your edit because itís difficult for me  to bold.
My edit is in square-bracketed italics, it deliberately stands out.

Quote
Oh yeah, and youíve quoted yourself in the second post down on this page, so it was a bit of a waste of time really.

That was also deliberate, you seemed to be having difficulty comprehending me.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Aug 13, 2018, 10:02:38 PM
Do ya think?  ;)
Itís good to point it out though, donít you think?
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Madge Hooks on Aug 14, 2018, 03:39:00 AM
I think the bottom line here is that anyone can say whatever they want and there will be zero repercussions.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Betty Croker on Aug 14, 2018, 08:32:58 AM
 :D I donít think that is most peopleís experience of Gingerbeer.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Earl on Aug 15, 2018, 01:58:48 AM
I think the bottom line here is that anyone can say whatever they want and there will be zero repercussions.

i know...I mean, what kind of church group/school classroom/handmaid's space is this? AmIright?
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Earl on Aug 15, 2018, 02:17:17 AM
^ I shouldn't be so flippant...this flippancy mainly happens when someone says 'the bottom line is..', it's a phrase that sends my bullshit meter off.

So you complained, Madge. And we're still here. You must be gutted.

As Betty pointed out, if you're hateful or as in your case dishonest, or whatever....others do tell you. And this is an actual repercussion.

So farewell, etc etc., maybe your manipulative nonsense will play better elsewhere.
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Madge Hooks on Aug 15, 2018, 10:39:59 PM
Iíve been accused of some right stuff here. ::)
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Betty Croker on Aug 15, 2018, 10:55:44 PM
Iíve been accused of some right stuff here. ::)

How do you think that compares to what you've accused us of and without backing any of it up?
Title: Re: How do we prevent GB message boards from falling foul of hate speech?
Post by: Marty. on Aug 19, 2018, 09:41:41 PM
Would it be unfair to characterise your contributions to that serious debate, Chewwy, as to cast doubt on the concerns raised by others regarding potential abuse from womens spaces including self idíd Transwomen and suggesting that others experiences of sexual abuse in public were not shared by you and may not be as widespread as suggested?

Is that a fair summary?

So when a self idíed transwoman who has been advising the government that all such concerns are scaremongering appears to have been exposed as engaging in the sort of behaviour women were concerned about in the first place you could either accept you may be wrong or characterise those women who appear to have been vindicated as gloating. Or you could do both. The last one involves the least credit.

When you factor in that those women who are supposedly gloating have been subject to death threats, threats to their employment and dismissed as liars and haters for simply stating the obvious, then Iím not surprised to be honest. Did you criticise their opponents for their lack of a somber tone when they were calling them smelly breathed, badly dressed, poor, middle aged or stupid? Nah.

Aye, it's a fair summary I guess.  Are you referring to Slanty's post re' being poked in the back by transwomen's penises (peni?)

(this is the best I can do at a cut and past quote so bear with...)

"Quote from: Slantrhyme on Jul 19, 2018, 04:32:52 PM
Quote from: Marty. on Jul 19, 2018, 01:57:00 AM
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6804433/transgender-lag-sexually-abused-four-female-prisoners-days-after-arriving-at-west-yorkshire-jail/

#ThisNeverHappens
 Like being stuck on a bus or train with that perv sticking his, I mean her,  cock in your back, but not being able to get off. Oh yes, weíve all had it happen. Those poor women

Really? 

It's never happened to me (trans woman anyway), or anyone I know. "

The Bus Thing.  It hasn't happened to me or anyone I know (transwoman with penis), has it you?  And I do take into account the case you've mentioned.  I'm hoping there's more going on there and that said person's is an anomaly with a whole heap of issues.  Once again... hoping.

And my comment about gloating was aimed at ALL in this debate, over all the trans threads, both sides.  GB is on it's knees, and I get this debate has brought a lot of people back.  But it has got nasty at times.  Posters have been verbally ripping each other's throats out / getting at each other for past grudges etc.

And Betty - of course the online death threats/contact with employers etc are wrong.  Did you think I was okay with that?

Lastly I'm wondering if anyone's changed their opinion as a result of our threads?  I hope so, as I can only see people becoming more firmly entrenched.

Proper lastly - I know I'll regret typing this post, as I'm shit at debates that are not face to face - so'll probably pop back to 'Whatever You Fancy'. 

As we were...  ;)

Edited for bold '' clarity (hopefully).

A bit of an exaggeration don't you think?

I take back what I said. It's as dead as a dodo.