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Worksafe => Discussion, Chat and Gossip => Topic started by: Blythe on Apr 21, 2018, 05:35:39 PM

Title: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on Apr 21, 2018, 05:35:39 PM
I have to come to ask gingerbeeries this question because I am perturbed, baffled and somewhat outraged to read that nowadays lesbians should happily have sex with people who have a penis.

This is not a joke, it's an argument put forward by many in the trans community. Apparently us lesbians should be having sex with trans women who retain their penises because their penises are female....

Now call me old fashioned, or call me a vagina fetishist (yes that's apparently a thing if your boundaries don't include lady dick) but I think telling lesbians they are transphobic for not being interested in trans women is actually HOMOPHOBIC.

We have a sexuality not a genderality and that means we are sexually attracted to women. Women have vaginas.

I asked this same question on a youngsters lesbian Facebook group to see if I am completely out of touch but they seemed to agree that penises were not of interest whoever they are attached to....
So Gingerbeer, please tell me what you think.

Signed
A vagina fetishist
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Dizz on Apr 21, 2018, 05:52:48 PM
Hmm. Call me old fashioned too.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: BioL0gical on Apr 21, 2018, 06:22:12 PM
It's anti-woman, anti-feminist, and plain old homophobic to tell lesbians that they must be open to having sex with a person who has a penis (also known as a man).

We have to be able to name what a woman is. A woman is an adult human female. Females are the egg-bearers of a species. It is not possible, as a human, to change your sex. What you do with your gender (i.e. how you perceive yourself) is your own business and has nothing to do with most other people. Yes, there are some females with no eggs (and never had any), but they sure as shit didn't have a penis or sperm either.

So yeah, no dick in my life, ta very much.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: valerie on Apr 21, 2018, 06:35:25 PM
guess i have not read about this in the states. However,  to each her own!  We  all have our own tastes &
hopefully fulfill who we are by knowing who we are. Conformity to someone's sexual advice or recommendations
is like returning to the idea that the earth is flat!
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on Apr 21, 2018, 06:39:46 PM
Valerie,  there's a lot of flat earthery about!
And a plethora of lady penises....
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Plus One on Apr 21, 2018, 08:14:51 PM
Male entitlement.

You can wrap it up in cowboy boots and a leather jacket or 5 inch stilettos and a cashmere sweater... it's still male entitlement.

Those demands aren't going the other way are they? No gay men are being told they *must* have sex with men without penises in the name of equality. Nope...it just us women being told who we should have sex with. Same old, same old.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: two monkeys on Apr 21, 2018, 10:07:46 PM
How far does my sexuality stretch? Not that far.

Like 99.93% of transgender assertions and assumptions this is dangerous misogynist and homophobic hate speech.

If two consenting adults are attracted to each other and have sex, all good.

If one consenting adult and one non-consenting adult have sex it's rape. Grooming and circular arguments can't change that.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Apr 22, 2018, 01:22:50 AM
 My sexuality stretches to the sex I am attracted to, not the gender. Doesnít matter how passably feminine she look, if sheís got a dick Iím not going anywhere near, end of. 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Lust for Life on Apr 22, 2018, 07:52:45 AM


If two consenting adults are attracted to each other and have sex, all good.

If one consenting adult and one non-consenting adult have sex it's rape. Grooming and circular arguments can't change that.


This, quite simply.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Trifle on Apr 22, 2018, 10:37:55 AM
This bs from the trans community drives me crazy. And anyone who dares challenge it is slurred as a
Terf.

I donít identify with gender which is socially constructed, and constructed in a way that oppresses females,  I identify with biological sex. So the  stuff about cisgender people supposedly feeling like the gender they are born with is nonsense to me as well.

Also worrying is the trend that lesbians are now seen more frequently as being trans males.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Lust for Life on Apr 22, 2018, 10:49:05 AM
Exactly.

I thought we were getting closer to a world where women could wear a suit and tie and men could wear a silver shiny mini skirt (in my Brighton of the 90s and the following decade this was accepted).

Now, just like so much else, there's more polarisation than ever.

I happen to be a woman, and I love a woman. No matter how short we cut our hair or how often we wear trousers and don't wear make-up, neither of us wants to be a man or be married to one. Why is that getting harder for other people to accept?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Apr 22, 2018, 11:26:21 AM
 Iím a pretty live and let live person as it goes, but I really do resent being labelled as cis. Since when has it been acceptable to force a label on someone who doesnít want it? If it was applied for any other reason, such as race or religion, it would be called out, but for some reason it seems to  have been allowed to become a thing.   
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 22, 2018, 11:54:16 AM
Exactly.

I thought we were getting closer to a world where women could wear a suit and tie and men could wear a silver shiny mini skirt (in my Brighton of the 90s and the following decade this was accepted).

I saw a tweet from a trans woman yesterday saying that in a (cis) male and female couple where the woman went to work and the male partner stayed at home looking after the kids, they were exhibiting transgendered behaviour. And should consider whether they were in fact, transgendered.

I felt like puking. Like we'd gone back 60 years in terms of civilisation. Not only in terms of how the holy cow of "self identification" disappears from the picture when you start re-labelling everyone else to suit your own definition of reality but in terms of the acceptibility or prescriptive use of vile, disempowering gender stereoptypes.

I realise there are far more sophisticated understandings of what it means to be transgender and this is as crude and ignorant understanding as you are likely to get but it has currency at the moment. I've seen it invoked a few times by transactivitists recently. Unchallenged by anyone other than so called "terfs".

Unchallenged along with statements like "trans women are more female than some "cis women" because they are performing femininity properly and some "cis women" aren't". So if you are not feminine enough - feminine like a man might design you to be - a submissive, lisping, lipsticked blow job machine that washes up and cleans the bathroom - you have been redefined as no longer a woman. So much for self identification.

The Pink Press aren't challenging these sorts of statements, LGBT societies and Stonewall aren't. Corbyn's Labour and the Lib Dems aren't. The Tories couldn't give a sh*t. They are all balls deep in fawning sympathy without looking at or caring about the dynamic lurking beneath. Or if they are conscious of it they approve of it.
 
Thankfully, in the last week or so I've see a growth in trans people online vocally rejecting some of the things done and said in their name and I hope that continues and grows.

And re: the original question - I've been turned off by cocks and bollocks my whole life - its not a transphobic long game and being gender critical is not a fancy name for transphobia. I first started thinking that gender was a load of oppressive socially constructed nonsense back in my pre-teens before I even knew transgender people existed. Surprised as some of their more narcissistic activists may be to find they play such a small role in the construction of our identities but like most lesbians and gender critical feminists I haven't constructed my sexuality nor my politics in opposition to them.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Lust for Life on Apr 22, 2018, 01:00:27 PM
I never understood why transvestites (back in the 90s when that was an appropriate term for men who liked or needed "to dress as women", but did not feel that they were or wanted to be women) so often dressed as the most stereotypical kind of woman, who I never had identified with: either the ultra glam sort with long hair and stilettos (had no one told them how bad those things are for your back?) or the twin set and pearls with a skirt (had no one told them that trousers were warmer and that even the over sixties had discovered them by then?). Most of all, I felt insulted that they thought that this was the only version of female that existed.

Ok, 30 years on, and partly thanks to those men who simply claimed the right to wear skirts or make up or heels if they felt like it, without stereotyping women in any way, I do get that the desire to 'dress like 'a woman' ' in the way I hate most, is partly because that right is largely denied them by society. And if they must dress like my mother, well, my mother's allowed, so why shouldn't they?

But still, all this bloody pigeonholing and telling us what a woman is, this polarisation, is dreadful, terrible, horrible, disgusting, demeaning, unbearable...I could go on.

And I cried inside when I heard that one of my gender bending heroes is no longer a gender bending man, but 'was a woman all along'. If this is true, then it's true, but I feel like society lost a strong champion for the right to just be yourself.

Ok, I've googled and read some interviews... He's calling himself a transgender man and says he 'came out as transgender 30 years ago'. So there's that as well now ::)
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: BioL0gical on Apr 22, 2018, 01:05:42 PM

I saw a tweet from a trans woman yesterday saying that in a (cis) male and female couple where the woman went to work and the male partner stayed at home looking after the kids, they were exhibiting transgendered behaviour. And should consider whether they were in fact, transgendered.

Wow, I've never heard that one before. What a pile of complete crap.

This is what makes the trans thing seem  like such a cult. They are desperate to recruit everyone and it is so important to them that we all comply with their idea of gender.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: mint on Apr 22, 2018, 01:07:01 PM
Don't mind 'cis' personally.
Think it's just a descriptor.

But as to all the other stuff, nope. How arrogant for people to try to tell people who they are or can be attracted to!

I find penises foul... I wouldn't want to do anything sexually with that. Always have, I remember in high school having a (VERY patient!!) boyfriend, for 3 months, didn't even kiss him, think i was 16, at that point I just knew but I guess I thought I'd try dating him and see how it worked out/felt.

The changing room issue does bother me a lot because honestly, rightly or wrongly (I think rightly) I would NOT change or want to change in a space with biological male people in there. I wuld buy the clothes and take them home, meaning another fckking trip.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 22, 2018, 01:48:08 PM

I saw a tweet from a trans woman yesterday saying that in a (cis) male and female couple where the woman went to work and the male partner stayed at home looking after the kids, they were exhibiting transgendered behaviour. And should consider whether they were in fact, transgendered.

Wow, I've never heard that one before. What a pile of complete crap.

This is what makes the trans thing seem  like such a cult. They are desperate to recruit everyone and it is so important to them that we all comply with their idea of gender.

Lots of trans people would also see it as a pile of crap as well and when there used to be lengthy discussions around trans id, the explanations used to be much more thought out and with consideration of "non binary" issues - but that line of thought is creeping in more and more unquestioned - sometimes put as crudely as I recorded it from Twitter and sometimes wrapped up in pseudo-scientific jargon - but its still back to the 1950's - with "girls do this" and "boys do that" prescriptions.

There is a transcentricity going on. Where we are being required not just to include trans people and trans sensibilities  and the feelings of trans people - (which is not a problem) but to centre trans people in considering any issue. To make the potential effect on them the most important way we view any issue, even how we see our own sexual and biological identity. And that has never happened before with any political struggle that I am aware of.

I don't see that as being driven by trans people. I see that as being driven in part by some very vocal, narcissistic trans activists and by the liberal establishment for acquiescing to it because they don't want the hassle of dealing with it or to be vulnerable to being labelled bigots.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Apr 22, 2018, 02:11:02 PM
 I think the saddest thing is this whole issue is being Toxified  by a few people. Most trans-people that  I know do not behave like this.  A few very aggressive and unpleasant people want to  hi Jack discourse and  force everybody to nail their colours to the mast, youíre either with us or youíre a terf. I got called a terf, and I wasnít even around when the whole radical feminism thing was going on. These few people, if you disagree with anything they say, mud sling, bully,  and close down debate. This is not a method that yields good results for anybody, especially when the people you are alienating are the very people who would probably be your biggest ally.   
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Trifle on Apr 22, 2018, 02:35:17 PM
^^ I thought narcissism was at the core of it too. It seemed to be some activists leading the nonsense with full blown NPD. But I just couldnít understand how such a tiny group has managed to get so much influence. Theyíre recreating reality as if biological facts donít matter and no one is challenging it.

As for terf-  iím not sure whatís radical or exclusionary about wanting to open up a discussion about how all this could negatively affect women, but there seem to be a lot of lies in the press as to the agenda of peaceful women just trying to exercise their right to freedom of speech.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: valerie on Apr 22, 2018, 02:56:30 PM
Valerie,  there's a lot of flat earthery about!
And a plethora of lady penises....
flat earthery- - - hmmmm,  need to figure that one out :)



 How arrogant for people to try to tell people who they are or can be attracted to!



agree, mint!
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 22, 2018, 03:01:36 PM
^^ I thought narcissism was at the core of it too. It seemed to be some activists leading the nonsense with full blown NPD. But I just couldnít understand how such a tiny group has managed to get so much influence. Theyíre recreating reality as if biological facts donít matter and no one is challenging it.

Yes. Classic narcissistic personality disorder. When in conversation Iíve tried to get them to demonstrate empathy or perspective take and they havenít got the equipment to do it.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on Apr 22, 2018, 04:22:03 PM
I'm relieved to see no one has drunk the koolaid and swallowed the transactivist nonsense.
What's very worrying however is that many young people at University and in LGBT youth groups have and they are the places that young lesbians are first encountering.
Many butch or even boyish teenage lesbians are being funnelled down the transitioning route. The figures have risen by 1000% in five years.
At this rate they'll be no lesbians left.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: BioL0gical on Apr 22, 2018, 05:28:26 PM
This posted by someone on Mumsnet sums things up for me:

ďTo the woman who shrieked at me that I am a bigot and a terf and a hateful transphobe for defending womenís rights,
Ten, fifteen years from now, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and youíre referred to throughout your pregnancy as a birthing individual, a pregnant person, and it makes you feel kind of dehumanised and you wish theyíd just call you a woman, a mother, because thatís what you are. But theyíre not allowed, because itís illegal to say only women can be pregnant and give birth.

Remember me when you give birth and you feel vulnerable and exposed and you really want a woman beside you who understands what youíre going through and instead your midwife is a six foot man with stubble in a dress and you know he isnít a woman but youíre not allowed to object, even when you need to be examined and you just want a woman to do it but you know you canít say anything because that would be hate speech, even though your body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who has lost her mind to dementia, goes into a care home and is told that her carer, Susan, is a woman, because you asked that she only be cared for by women. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that Susan is a man, and you know Susan is a man, but you cannot object, and she has to allow Susan to perform her intimate care, because to object would be hate speech.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, sheís crying because Lucas in her class, one of the fastest boys, has decided he identifies as female for now and so is allowed to run in her race, and she knows it doesnít matter how hard she trains, he will always beat her, and she can only ever hope for a silver medal now. Or bronze, if there is another Lucas.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and thereís noone else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you canít challenge him, because if you do heíll say heís a woman and has as much right as you do to be in this toilet, a place where many years ago you might have come to feel safe.

Remember me when you go for a promotion, for a board position at work thatís designated for a woman. Youíve put in the hours, youíve worked so hard, you know you deserve it. And the position goes to Lola, who until last year was a 50 year old man. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have babies, or to deal with any health issues that you, a woman might face, like endometriosis, breast cancer, PND. Lola is a woman just like you, and your company are happy that they have fulfilled their quota of women members on the board.

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for women committing rape and murder are on the increase, and now women carry out a much higher number of rapes and murders than they did when you were a teenager or a young woman. And you know that these Ďwomení are men and that the statistics are wrong, but to challenge this would be hate speech.

Remember me too, when these women rapists are locked up with vulnerable women in female prisons and cannot escape, because to challenge the presence of the women rapists with penises in prison with them would be hate speech.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that heís learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas and that his teacher said that because he likes playing with girls and dolls that maybe he is really a girl in the wrong body. And you think, no, you are just my wonderful, unique, son, and you were born in your own body. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says sheís concerned that you are not validating your sonís identity and that sheís noticed you are still referring to him by the name you so carefully chose for him when he was born, and calling him a boy, when he is actually a girl, and that she doesnít want to have to involve social services but sheís worried she might have to if you continue to misgender your son and deny his real identity. And you know that she will, because itís happened before in a school near you, and you are afraid.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transactivist friends, your lefty male allies, the ones you stood beside and yellled Ďterf, transphobe, bigotí with, with you shouting the loudest, because you wanted to show what a good ally you were, how inclusive, how progressive. Where are they now? Why, they are where they always were. Benefitting from the patriarchy. Enjoying the new, improved version of it that you helped them to build by crushing the resistance from the women who spoke up for their rights. This has all cost them nothing; it has made the world a better, easier place for men. It has cost you and your sisters who campaigned with them for virtue cookies, everything.

And me? Iíll be where Iíve always been. Fighting for your rights. Fighting to undo the damage.
Iíll have your back, as I always have done.Ē
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on Apr 22, 2018, 06:42:16 PM
That sums it up brilliantly.
We are facing the compete dismantling of women's rights and spaces if we don't spread that message to people we know, work with, relatives. Everyone needs to wake up and see that women's rights matter and are under serious threat.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on Apr 22, 2018, 09:09:10 PM
I think that if you are attracted to women *and* you believe trans women with penises are women, it is inconsistent not to at least consider them, unless you simply find penises a turn off the way some people find, say, short people or upturned noses or long labia a turn off.  As someone said on here ages ago, sexual attraction is by definition discriminatory.

If you are really asking whether trans women are women, then that's a different thread.

TITTM (Tooilltotypemore) atm
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on Apr 22, 2018, 10:14:40 PM
I don't think most lesbians think trans women with penises are women, obviously I have not asked EVERY lesbian but I've asked many.
Some may think that trans women without penises are women, I'm not sure.
Personally I think trans women are not women, they are men wishing to be women and that's fine. But I do not believe you can change your sex. You can act any way you wish but you can't change the chromosomes.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 22, 2018, 10:28:51 PM
I think many people including many trans women see an obvious distinction between it being helpful and positive for people who identify as a particular gender to live as that gender - and pretending that there are no significant implications arising from the different biological and related life experiences of trans women and women born of the female sex. ďTrans women are womenĒ is just glib sloganeering in that regard to paper over the complexities.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on Apr 22, 2018, 11:13:06 PM
I have to come to ask gingerbeeries this question because I am perturbed, baffled and somewhat outraged to read that nowadays lesbians should happily have sex with people who have a penis
.

Where did you read this? I see some people on twitter claiming that it true but theyíre not transwomen, they are people who have a problem with trans women.

Quote
This is not a joke, it's an argument put forward by many in the trans community. Apparently us lesbians should be having sex with trans women who retain their penises because their penises are female....

People in Ďsaying shit on Twitter shockerí? Gosh.


Quote
Now call me old fashioned, or call me a vagina fetishist (yes that's apparently a thing if your boundaries don't include lady dick) but I think telling lesbians they are transphobic for not being interested in trans women is actually HOMOPHOBIC.

Yeah, it would be if it happened and I donít mean an isolated incident, if it really was common it would be a problem. I knew a lesbian once, who had up the bum sex, with a male neighbour, when drunk; thatís not typical lesbian behaviour but you know, it takes all sorts and it did show me that not all lesbians were totally put off by dick.

Quote
We have a sexuality not a genderality and that means we are sexually attracted to women. Women have vaginas.

Has anyone made you have sex with a trans woman?

Quote
I asked this same question on a youngsters lesbian Facebook group to see if I am completely out of touch but they seemed to agree that penises were not of interest whoever they are attached to....

Iím glad youíve been able to put to bed the rumour that Ďthe transí are coming for the young lesbians.


Quote
So Gingerbeer, please tell me what you think.

That youíre scaremongering to further a political agenda and youíve become so over excited by it, that youíve left off the question mark.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: સરસ on Apr 22, 2018, 11:23:27 PM
In  my mind I just go  "Hang on.. if you can find 95% of the male world population to think that your penis is part of you as a woman then I MIGHT try and think about it when high on drugs/medicine and seven bottles of whiskey later but till then move along buddy!!

No.. make that 98%.. .. No.. make it all men... 

















Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 22, 2018, 11:31:44 PM
Youíre wrong, Top. There is shedloads of stuff by transactivists on social media arguing that itís discriminatory, transphobic and transmisogynist for lesbians to not consider sex with transwomen with penises. Just because some of it is on Twitter, doesnít mean it doesnít count.

Iíll post some of it when I get to my PC. Canít do it easily from my phone.

And Iíve got a political agenda for sure. To stop that shit.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Lyco on Apr 22, 2018, 11:34:29 PM
When I was a spotty little teenager I had spotty little teenage boys coming onto me. In my early 20s I had other lesbians, men and Ďbisexualí (i use quotation marks as I donít generally classify women who want a bit of girl of girl on girl while hubby wanks off before joining in as proper bisexualists) women coming onto me.

In my 30s I had some fallow years as I started looking less conventially het but now I have moved to rural Ireland and look as though I can carry a pig under each arm, I am again, in demand. I am literally fending off every local single farmer with a stick. And itís not like I have ever won any beauty contests. If you think Iíve had it bad, imagine my wifeís experience. Sheís properly attractive.

The point to all this (apart from to remind you all that I am a catch) is that no one has ever respected my sexual integrity. And Iím pretty certain this is the case for every woman. women, men, lesbians, transmen and the odd gay man have all tried to fish in my pond. Ironically, any approach I have had from a trans woman has been entirely respectful.

So, excuse me if I just roll my eyes at a few arseholes on twitter and those who are trying to make some kind of political mileage out of it.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on Apr 22, 2018, 11:41:41 PM
Youíre wrong, Top. There is shedloads of stuff by transactivists on social media arguing that itís discriminatory, transphobic and transmisogynist for lesbians to not consider sex with transwomen with penises. Just because some of it is on Twitter, doesnít mean it doesnít count.

I donít doubt for a second that you can find me examples of that. I can find you examples of people who think that Hitler is fantastic, Princess Di should be sainted and that salad cream is palatable. Like I say, people have some funny ideas. What I donít think those kinds of post show, is that these are normal ideas, typical of a whole community and I donít think the pushy behaviour of a few in a community should be used to demonise a whole community.

Personal, I like very butch women and Iíve had relationships with a few who have started to transition. Once they reach a certain point, their lack of dick doesnít keep me fancying them. No amount of anyone shouting Ďbiologyí at me, makes me find them sexually attractive. It doesnít feel like lesbian sex to me anymore but, you know, each to their own.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on Apr 22, 2018, 11:58:32 PM
Quote
The point to all this (apart from to remind you all that I am a catch) is that no one has ever respected my sexual integrity.

Thatís an excellent point, wife.

No one has ever respected my sexuality. No man has ever said, ďoh youíre a lesbian, I totally understand and will leave you to drink in peaceĒ, never. Not once. I found that aggressive sexual attention has been ramped up, not died away when Iíve said that Iím a dyke. Iíd like to be able to tell you that itís only men who are sexually pushy but thatís not the case either, some lesbians arenít great at accepting Ďno thanksí either.

Personally, Iíve had no aggressive sexual attention from trans women but Iím not going to claim that it couldnít happen, Iím sure that some of them behave just as badly as some lesbians. However, I donít the see anyone trying to make political capital out of sexually pushy lesbians anymore. I did see it back in the 80s when the press loved a gay panic story, so that they could convince the person in the street that we were so dangerous that Section 28 was called for, but not recently.

Any road up, if this is a problem (and I donít think it is) what would be the solution?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: [...] on Apr 23, 2018, 12:06:20 AM
Obviously, the solution is to leave the law as it stands in respect of trans people. Or make it even more difficult for them.

What else, expect the focus to be on prosecuting violent men?

A lot of this reminds me of the women only train carriages proposal.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Apr 23, 2018, 12:10:34 AM
 Is any of this self identification stuff actually under consultation, or is it just social media hysteria?  I hear and read a lot about it but Iím not aware of any legislation being considered.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on Apr 23, 2018, 12:12:56 AM
Obviously, the solution is to leave the law as it stands in respect of trans people. Or make it even more difficult for them

Thereís a law that stops trans women cracking on to lesbians? Are you sure, Iíve not heard of that?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 23, 2018, 12:14:32 AM
Youíre wrong, Top. There is shedloads of stuff by transactivists on social media arguing that itís discriminatory, transphobic and transmisogynist for lesbians to not consider sex with transwomen with penises. Just because some of it is on Twitter, doesnít mean it doesnít count.

I donít doubt for a second that you can find me examples of that. I can find you examples of people who think that Hitler is fantastic, Princess Di should be sainted and that salad cream is palatable. Like I say, people have some funny ideas. What I donít think those kinds of post show, is that these are normal ideas, typical of a whole community and I donít think the pushy behaviour of a few in a community should be used to demonise a whole community.

Personal, I like very butch women and Iíve had relationships with a few who have started to transition. Once they reach a certain point, their lack of dick doesnít keep me fancying them. No amount of anyone shouting Ďbiologyí at me, makes me find them sexually attractive. It doesnít feel like lesbian sex to me anymore but, you know, each to their own.

Here's a perfect example :

https://youtu.be/k5GYlZKfBmI (https://youtu.be/k5GYlZKfBmI)

Sure, you can find someone on the internet to advocate any bizarre belief. But I wouldn't say it was a fair characterisation of the current cotton ceiling debates to discount it in that way.  Its not just that that video by Riley J Dennis - has had 363,628 views on that one platform alone. Its also that she was presenting arguments (without any counter arguments) on Everyday Sexism which was marketing itself as a mainstream feminist tool for "woke" young feminists.

And I don't think its about demonizing a whole community at all. Or even suggesting that trans women are sexually pushy. Its more about the guilt trip, the transphobic name calling if you don't accept the argument whole sale. One of the strongest arguments against this all along has been that there are trans people against this type of thinking who's political voices are also been erased by it being assumed they are being spoken for. And who are becoming more vocal.

What is scary about it is the authoritarian way of dealing with the issue and the trans centring of it. "If you don't agree with me, you are a hater" - and you know what happens to haters, they get no platformed, they get socially ostracised, they get silenced. And we see time and time again that the press reporting makes no attempt to get to the bottom of the issues and is all too often willing to demonise gender criticism as bigotry and hatred without any investigation into what is being said. So Riley J Dennis says you're a cis-misogynist or a transphobe - nobody goes into the reasons behind that. Mud sticks and men like Owen Jones will thereafter refer to anyone with mud on them as an acceptible target.





Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: [...] on Apr 23, 2018, 12:20:24 AM
Obviously, the solution is to leave the law as it stands in respect of trans people. Or make it even more difficult for them

Thereís a law that stops trans women cracking on to lesbians? Are you sure, Iíve not heard of that?

I meant the solution to the problem of trans women using the same public lavatories, and all the rest of the safety concerns, or for that matter, the LP's women only shortlist, obviously, the answer is to leave well alone, instead of dealing with the root cause of the problem.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 23, 2018, 12:21:38 AM
Is any of this self identification stuff actually under consultation, or is it just social media hysteria?  I hear and read a lot about it but Iím not aware of any legislation being considered.

Yeah, the Tories have said they will make gender indentification a matter of self declaration by passing a new Gender Recognition Act and Jeremy Corbyn is agreeing to it on behalf of the unconsulted Labour members. The only barrier to it going through so far, is large numbers of posters on Mum's Net have vociferously opposed it and got labelled transphobic so Mums Net has had all its advertisers bullied by transactivists in an attempt to close it down for allowing debate on the subject.

But you know us hysterical women....wanting to have a say about something that effects us and all.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on Apr 23, 2018, 12:26:50 AM
Is any of this self identification stuff actually under consultation, or is it just social media hysteria?  I hear and read a lot about it but Iím not aware of any legislation being considered.

That depends of what you mean by Ďself identificationí. Since the Gender Recognition Act of 2004, trans people have, legally been able to change their gender. They can get a gender recognition certificate that allows them to be issued with a new birth certificate and did allow passport and driving licences to be changed. The rules around the latter have become a bit more relaxed in the intervening years.

To get a GRC, at the moment, you have to live in your aquired gender for two years, have a note from a doctor, fill in a very long form, send off  loads of money and the application then goes before a judicial panel. Itís a big faff and it takes ages.

Lots of trans people donít bother becasue, as youíll be aware, itís not really needed most of the time. No one ever checks ID going into a loo or a changing room and passports and driving licences can be changed without one now.

The proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act would make the process easier but itís not been decided quite how easy yet. Here in Ireland, a trans person make a statutory declaration in front of a solicitor, fills in a two page form and gets the GRC back two weeks later. The sky hasnít fallen in and, as far as Iím aware, lesbians are still free to sleep with who they like.

The other kind of Ďself IDí that some people seen annoyed at, is the 8 year old Equalities Act, which allows anyone to use the gendered facilities they like. Iíd, respectfully, suggest that if anyone hasnít been aware of these changes for the last 8 years, the impact hasnít been massive.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on Apr 23, 2018, 12:30:48 AM
I meant the solution to the problem of trans women using the same public lavatories, and all the rest of the safety concerns, or for that matter, the LP's women only shortlist, obviously, the answer is to leave well alone, instead of dealing with the root cause of the problem.

What problems are there with trans women using the ladies? Itís been going on for at least 14 years and Iíve had no problems, have you?

AWS have also been open to trans women for as long as they have been in existence, a trans women with a GRC is a legally women. However, there arenít any trans women elected MPs, are there?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on Apr 23, 2018, 12:34:27 AM
More evidence of widespread shaming and accusations against lesbians who say they are being accused of transphobia for their sexual preferences.
Arielle is a youtube lesbian with over 500,000 followers, and was the most trans inclusive youtuber and has now been harassed and called terf.
The trans woman on Blair is also very famous and agrees with her. She is also attacked by the trans activists.
https://youtu.be/f6ywxHAvAds

I have to go to bed but there's hours of evidence.
I will post more later.

It's totally disingenuous to pretend the transphobia accusations aren't widespread.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 23, 2018, 12:38:08 AM
Is any of this self identification stuff actually under consultation, or is it just social media hysteria?  I hear and read a lot about it but Iím not aware of any legislation being considered.

That depends of what you mean by Ďself identificationí. Since the Gender Recognition Act of 2004, trans people have, legally been able to change their gender. They can get a gender recognition certificate that allows them to be issued with a new birth certificate and did allow passport and driving licences to be changed. The rules around the latter have become a bit more relaxed in the intervening years.

To get a GRC, at the moment, you have to live in your aquired gender for two years, have a note from a doctor, fill in a very long form, send off  loads of money and the application then goes before a judicial panel. Itís a big faff and it takes ages.

Lots of trans people donít bother becasue, as youíll be aware, itís not really needed most of the time. No one ever checks ID going into a loo or a changing room and passports and driving licences can be changed without one now.

The proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act would make the process easier but itís not been decided quite how easy yet. Here in Ireland, a trans person make a statutory declaration in front of a solicitor, fills in a two page form and gets the GRC back two weeks later. The sky hasnít fallen in and, as far as Iím aware, lesbians are still free to sleep with who they like.

The other kind of Ďself IDí that some people seen annoyed at, is the 8 year old Equalities Act, which allows anyone to use the gendered facilities they like. Iíd, respectfully, suggest that if anyone hasnít been aware of these changes for the last 8 years, the impact hasnít been massive.

Then there should be no problem whatsover in letting women have consultation meetings to discuss how it effects them then without masked men blocking them or transactivists assaulting them.

Technically anyone can ID as anything. The question is in what circumstances is that id recognised legally and is it for all intents and purposes - say for instance Ian Huntley self id'ing as a women to move to a womens prison.

How it will be done has not been made clear. The fact that its done by way of stat dec in Ireland has obviously no automatic relevance to how it will be done here and the point is that gender and sex effects everyone not just trans people and sex is a protected category under Equality Law too.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: [...] on Apr 23, 2018, 12:38:55 AM
^^Did you miss that I said all this reminded me of the women only train carriages proposal? (Corbyn's I think).

That was vetoed on the grounds that it would normalise male violence, and the focus instead should be on making public transport safer. So, that's the way I see the concerns over what may happen if just anyone is allowed to go around calling themselves a woman, and use of the loos, always gets top billing on the list of concerns.

My own RL, as usual, bears no comparison to any of this. Last Summer, I accidentally blundered into the male only showers, with two equally short sighted friends, in a nude only Berlin sauna. The men trying to shower went off to fetch security to get us out of their space, we all met in a blurry gaze as we were coming out.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on Apr 23, 2018, 12:41:01 AM
Yeah, the Tories have said they will make gender indentification a matter of self declaration by passing a new Gender Recognition Act and Jeremy Corbyn is agreeing to it on behalf of the unconsulted Labour members. The only barrier to it going through so far, is large numbers of posters on Mum's Net have vociferously opposed it and got labelled transphobic so Mums Net has had all its advertisers bullied by transactivists in an attempt to close it down for allowing debate on the ]subject

Now, those people that you call transactivists, I call friends, they are mostly older dykes like ourselves and some trans people. What they want to see is the end of transphobia on Mumsnet, not the end of Mumsnet. To a woman, they think that MN is comedy gold and would hate to see anything happen to it.

Quote
But you know us hysterical women....wanting to have a say about something that effects us and all.

We both know that respectful debate is possible without disrespectful behaviour. Mumsnet themselves. have acknowledged that things have got out of hand and have made statements about their moderation policy. Pretending that there hasnít been some transphobic behaviour is a case of Nelson putting the telescope up to his blind eye and declaring Ďno Frenchí.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Apr 23, 2018, 12:50:58 AM
 BCFC, I wasnít calling you hysterical. These things get whipped up on social media so I never quite know whether itís actually a thing or just something that people like to argue about. To be honest, itís a topic Iíve learnt to stay away from, because you know, people can get quite upset with you if you say something they donít like. Iím not even sure what I think myself to be honest. On one hand Iím sure the sky isnít going to fall in and the universe collapse in on itself, but on the other hand things seem to be getting a bit dystopian, and if  someone confined a way to make  a few quid out of it somewhere down the line God knows what might happen. As for having sex with women with penises; well Women donít have penises, so thatís not going to happen. Iím one of those cis sexists or whatever weĎre called now.   
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 23, 2018, 12:51:54 AM
Yeah, the Tories have said they will make gender indentification a matter of self declaration by passing a new Gender Recognition Act and Jeremy Corbyn is agreeing to it on behalf of the unconsulted Labour members. The only barrier to it going through so far, is large numbers of posters on Mum's Net have vociferously opposed it and got labelled transphobic so Mums Net has had all its advertisers bullied by transactivists in an attempt to close it down for allowing debate on the ]subject

Now, those people that you call transactivists, I call friends, they are mostly older dykes like ourselves and some trans people. What they want to see is the end of transphobia on Mumsnet, not the end of Mumsnet. To a woman, they think that MN is comedy gold and would hate to see anything happen to it.

Quote
But you know us hysterical women....wanting to have a say about something that effects us and all.

We both know that respectful debate is possible without disrespectful behaviour. Mumsnet themselves. have acknowledged that things have got out of hand and have made statements about their moderation policy. Pretending that there hasnít been some transphobic behaviour is a case of Nelson putting the telescope up to his blind eye and declaring Ďno Frenchí.

I'm sure the people I'm referring to as transactivists aren't your friends - unless you are friends with people like Riley J Dennis and they do want Mumsnet closed down. I'm sure there has been some genuinely nasty things said about trans people as there have been some truely nasty things said about people described as "terfs". MumsNet has had to declare itself to the Information Commissioner because a paid intern collected information from the staff interface side of the site containing information re: posters she considered transphobic and disclosed their IP addresses elsewhere. She thought that morally she had the right to do that. So sometimes they moderated well and others times they will have got it wrong but the remarkable thing is they refused to be bullied into closing the debate. And there are transactivists posting all over social media who definately want them closed down for just that.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 23, 2018, 12:53:56 AM
BCFC, I wasnít calling you hysterical.   

I know, its all good  :)
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on Apr 23, 2018, 12:58:07 AM
Then there should be no problem whatsover in letting women have consultation meetings to discuss how it effects them then without masked men blocking them or transactivists assaulting them
.

Of course, some people can have meetings and other people can object to them, thatís the nature of democracy. I know that the Bristol branch/wing (?) who were protesting outside, also claim to have been assaulted but there was a police presence, so I can only assume that both sides are playing to the crown a bit as no arrests were made.


Quote
Technically anyone can ID as anything. The question is in what circumstances is that id recognised legally and is it for all intents and purposes - say for instance Ian Huntley self id'ing as a women to move to a womens prison.

I donít think that example is in good faith, Betty, I think you know a little better than that how the prison service works. For those of you that donít, each prisoner is assess for a prison place on a case by case basis. A GRC neither gives you a place in a womenís prison nor bars you from being given one. There is no suggestion that will change.

Quote
How it will be done has not been made clear. The fact that its done by way of stat dec in Ireland has obviously no automatic relevance to how it will be done here and the point is that gender and sex effects everyone not just trans people and sex is a protected category under Equality Law too.

The paperwork required (or not required) to change gender only has bearing on the person changing gender.

You could argue that the fact that trans people can legally change their gender Ďcouldí impact on the wider community but thatís been the case for 14 years now.  If you wanted to argue against the legal right to change gender, that bus left the station 14 years ago and no one noticed, the fact that you are coming at this 14 years too late, does show that itís had no desernable impact on your life or the life of any other woman.   

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on Apr 23, 2018, 01:04:45 AM
Quote
She thought that morally she had the right to do that. So sometimes they moderated well and others times they will have got it wrong but the remarkable thing is they refused to be bullied into closing the debate. And there are transactivists posting all over social media who definately want them closed down for just that.

Can I correct you there, I do know the woman involved there and youíve misrepresented what happened. Basically, she screwed up. She took information that was in the public domain and accidentally left some IP addresses on. That was a mistake, she acknowledged she was wrong and removed it immediately. She has since apologised and undertaken not to publish the information again.

The thread calling for a Section 28 for trans people is still being published by Mumsnet. That is transphobic. That does deserve publicity, it does deserve debate and it would have got an awful lot more if the whistleblower hadnít screwed up.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on Apr 23, 2018, 01:13:42 AM
^^Did you miss that I said all this reminded me of the women only train carriages proposal? (Corbyn's I think).

That was vetoed on the grounds that it would normalise male violence, and the focus instead should be on making public transport safer. So, that's the way I see the concerns over what may happen if just anyone is allowed to go around calling themselves a woman, and use of the loos, always gets top billing on the list of concerns.

The thing is, while you might be concerned and I donít want to dismiss how you feel, anyone has been able to self identify into any loo since the Equalities Act 2010. I could rock up to any gents in the UK, and have a wee, so could you but itís not something thatís actually being taken advantage of.

Personally, if I wanted to gain access to to a blokesí loo and look at the willies, I get a cleanersí uniform as it would draw less attention. Iím sure that any man wanting access to the ladies would do the same but it isnít a bit problem, is it?

The EA requires separate sex provision but it doesnít require that provision to be policed.

The awful thing is that men donít need to gain access to womenís loos to attack women, they do it with impunity on the street.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Apr 23, 2018, 01:21:54 AM
 As long as they donít piss on the toilet seat I donít care.  My objection to sharing toilet facilities isnít because of predatory men. If theyíre going to do that then theyíll do it anyway, I just donít want to paddle through their urine.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 23, 2018, 01:24:00 AM
Then there should be no problem whatsover in letting women have consultation meetings to discuss how it effects them then without masked men blocking them or transactivists assaulting them
.

Of course, some people can have meetings and other people can object to them, thatís the nature of democracy. I know that the Bristol branch/wing (?) who were protesting outside, also claim to have been assaulted but there was a police presence, so I can only assume that both sides are playing to the crown a bit as no arrests were made.


Quote
Technically anyone can ID as anything. The question is in what circumstances is that id recognised legally and is it for all intents and purposes - say for instance Ian Huntley self id'ing as a women to move to a womens prison.

I donít think that example is in good faith, Betty, I think you know a little better than that how the prison service works. For those of you that donít, each prisoner is assess for a prison place on a case by case basis. A GRC neither gives you a place in a womenís prison nor bars you from being given one. There is no suggestion that will change.

Quote
How it will be done has not been made clear. The fact that its done by way of stat dec in Ireland has obviously no automatic relevance to how it will be done here and the point is that gender and sex effects everyone not just trans people and sex is a protected category under Equality Law too.

The paperwork required (or not required) to change gender only has bearing on the person changing gender.

You could argue that the fact that trans people can legally change their gender Ďcouldí impact on the wider community but thatís been the case for 14 years now.  If you wanted to argue against the legal right to change gender, that bus left the station 14 years ago and no one noticed, the fact that you are coming at this 14 years too late, does show that itís had no desernable impact on your life or the life of any other woman.

There's lots of footage from Bristol showing men in masks blocking women from getting up the stair case to get the meeting. There's no plausable excuse for that. If there were no arrests it may well be because their identities are hard to ascertain given that they were masked and the police were inside the building and not on the stairs.

In regard to prisons GRC or birth certification is the current recognised criteria and then it goes to case by case based on risk if there is no GRC or birth certificate. But there is nothing to suggest that the new proposals of self-id won't include prisons. The proposals are expressed as being universally applicable. And Ian Huntley is reported to be transitioning so the case is very valid. I've seen trans activists raise and discuss his case in this context themselves. Its common ground to anyone used to reading about these issues not some bizarre example I've plucked out of the air to shock in bad faith.

What discernible impact you consider it has on your life is a matter for you. Saying that you are not arsed about it from another country is of little consequence to people who are arsed about and will be effected by it under the jurisdiction where it applies.

What discernible impact it has on mine and other womens lives is a matter for us. You're not in a position to make that assessment for us.

And nobody should be objecting to people meeting. That's the point.

No one has said that any paperwork at all will be required to change gender.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on Apr 23, 2018, 01:28:06 AM
...itís a topic Iíve learnt to stay away from, because you know, people can get quite upset with you if you say something they donít like. Iím not even sure what I think myself to be honest. On one hand Iím sure the sky isnít going to fall in and the universe collapse in on itself, but on the other hand things seem to be getting a bit dystopian, and if  someone confined a way to make  a few quid out of it somewhere down the line God knows what might happen...

I do hear you on your reluctance to discuss this, there is a lot of aggression. It would be loads better if a more measured and reasonable tone was adopted by the extreamist on both sides.

There are trans activists who are, frankly, loopy and I wouldnít defend them for a second but Iíve also seen ironic statements taken totally out of context and used as a stick to beat the whole community.

I follow a self declared TERF on Twitter, between making violent threats, her feminist rhetoric is so confused that it makes me laugh. I know that I shouldnít be laughing at the violence, especially not as she seems to have an understand of prison attack methods that can only have come from experience. I wonít repeat them, some knowledge shouldnít be shared.

The following video shows a woman who isnít calling for violence but she is calling trans people deluded, mentally ill and evil. Sheís not doing anything to improve the atmosphere but itís really worth watching becasue it also includes someone perfectly demonstrating how illogical her case is:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hp5sQRVwQM8 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hp5sQRVwQM8)
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 23, 2018, 01:28:22 AM
Quote
She thought that morally she had the right to do that. So sometimes they moderated well and others times they will have got it wrong but the remarkable thing is they refused to be bullied into closing the debate. And there are transactivists posting all over social media who definately want them closed down for just that.

Can I correct you there, I do know the woman involved there and youíve misrepresented what happened. Basically, she screwed up. She took information that was in the public domain and accidentally left some IP addresses on. That was a mistake, she acknowledged she was wrong and removed it immediately. She has since apologised and undertaken not to publish the information again.

The thread calling for a Section 28 for trans people is still being published by Mumsnet. That is transphobic. That does deserve publicity, it does deserve debate and it would have got an awful lot more if the whistleblower hadnít screwed up.

It doesn't make you right and me wrong because you accept her explanation and I'm reporting theirs.

The information she took, according to them included material only available to staff.

You can go on Mumsnet and challenge what you see is transphobia. The fact is they are not going to be bullied into accepting the dogma of the person who barks at them loudest.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: [...] on Apr 23, 2018, 01:34:06 AM
I'm agreeing with you. I was being ironic. To be absolutely clear, trans women are at the bottom of my list of people to worry about. I'm sympathetic to their problems having to jump through hoops but that's actually about as far as it goes. I don't understand gender dysphoria and I'm not even that interested. I once had loads of conversations with an elderly man who described himself as a cross dresser, about why his female persona would be just as real in less uncomfortable clothing than those he thought she should wear but really, we were both speaking foreign languages. It's not that I didn't try but it's hopeless, I have no empathy. And since then, I've been much more interested in classic socialist feminist concerns like equal pay than in whether a man wants to wear a dress. That's actually what I think the division is but on a phone, I'll have to summarize it as queer theory in the middle class camp and pay disparity in the working class one.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 23, 2018, 01:40:56 AM
I'm agreeing with you. I was being ironic. To be absolutely clear, trans women are at the bottom of my list of people to worry about. I'm sympathetic to their problems having to jump through hoops but that's actually about as far as it goes. I don't understand gender dysphoria and I'm not even that interested. I once had loads of conversations with an elderly man who described himself as a cross dresser, about why his female persona would be just as real in less uncomfortable clothing than those he thought she should wear but really, we were both speaking foreign languages. It's not that I didn't try but it's hopeless, I have no empathy. And since then, I've been much more interested in classic socialist feminist concerns like equal pay than in whether a man wants to wear a dress. That's actually what I think the division is but on a phone, I'll have to summarize it as queer theory in the middle class camp and pay disparity in the working class one.

I don't think the GRA thing is about trans women. Its about the deletion of sex as a protected characteristic, its about potential abuse of gender identity by others, its about womens' concerns being ignored, its about women being silenced, told their views don't matter.

The cotton ceiling thing which the thread was about is about the de-centering of women in terms of their own biology and sexuality.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on Apr 23, 2018, 01:42:53 AM
Quote
If there were no arrests it may well be because their identities are hard to ascertain given that they were masked and the police were inside the building and not on the stairs.

That the interesting bit about that vides, there were police outside, other vidoes show them. I find it really difficult to believe that anyone would walk past uniformed officers and then not call them over in that situation. Itís almost like, maybe, something else might be going on. Who can tell with some many agendas flying around?

Quote
In regard to prisons GRC or birth certification is the current recognised criteria and then it goes to case by case based on risk if there is no GRC or birth certificate. But there is nothing to suggest that the new proposals of self-id won't include prisons. The proposals are expressed as being universally applicable. And Ian Huntley is reported to be transitioning so the case is very valid. I've seen trans activists raise and discuss his case in this context themselves. Its common ground to anyone used to reading about these issues not some bizarre example I've plucked out of the air to shock in bad faith.

It is bad faith to suggest that if the law changes that Ďsomethingí might happen. If we followed that logic to itís natural conclusion, if the law changes we might all be required to change genders and be called Brian. If the law changes we might all have to hop on one leg.

Maria Millarís consultation document took evidence from the prison service and evidence from medics who treat prisoners. Both said that it was common for prisoner to fake conditions that they assumed would gain their privileges in prison. The government, the prison service and medics who work in prisons, are aware that the prison population arenít the most honest bunch in society. Iím happy to assume that this advice will be taken on board by sane people and the law will be drafted appropriately.

Then we have a couple of chambers of government that it needs to be passed by before it is made into law.

Quote
What discernible impact it has on mine and other womens lives is a matter for us. You're not in a position to make that assessment for us.

Someone elseís paperwork burden, has no impact on you. Do you have evidence that you have been impacted by the GRA in the last 14 years?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on Apr 23, 2018, 01:45:58 AM
Quote
You can go on Mumsnet and challenge what you see is transphobia. The fact is they are not going to be bullied into accepting the dogma of the person who barks at them loudest.

I canít actually, pro trans voices get kicked out of MN very quickly. Iíve made the same points on there as Iím making here and I was banned after three posts. No reason was given and no reply was made when I inquired. I know at least 20 other women itís happend to.

Their commitment to free speech doesnít include those who donít go along with the group think.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 23, 2018, 01:50:31 AM
Quote
You can go on Mumsnet and challenge what you see is transphobia. The fact is they are not going to be bullied into accepting the dogma of the person who barks at them loudest.

I canít actually, pro trans voices get kicked out of MN very quickly. Iíve made the same points on there as Iím making here and I was banned after three posts. No reason was given and no reply was made when I inquired. I know at least 20 other women itís happend to.

Their commitment to free speech doesnít include those who donít go along with the group think.

I wouldn't know. I've never been on there. I've always just assumed I wasn't entitled to because I'm not a Mum.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on Apr 23, 2018, 01:51:04 AM
And since then, I've been much more interested in classic socialist feminist concerns like equal pay than in whether a man wants to wear a dress. That's actually what I think the division is but on a phone, I'll have to summarize it as queer theory in the middle class camp and pay disparity in the working class one.

I love you.

Iím in Ireland, where weíre repealing the 8th amendment and chasing rapists that the British legal system allowed to walk free, to ground. Itís so fecking refreshing.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 23, 2018, 01:57:29 AM
Quote
If there were no arrests it may well be because their identities are hard to ascertain given that they were masked and the police were inside the building and not on the stairs.

That the interesting bit about that vides, there were police outside, other vidoes show them. I find it really difficult to believe that anyone would walk past uniformed officers and then not call them over in that situation. Itís almost like, maybe, something else might be going on. Who can tell with some many agendas flying around?

Quote
In regard to prisons GRC or birth certification is the current recognised criteria and then it goes to case by case based on risk if there is no GRC or birth certificate. But there is nothing to suggest that the new proposals of self-id won't include prisons. The proposals are expressed as being universally applicable. And Ian Huntley is reported to be transitioning so the case is very valid. I've seen trans activists raise and discuss his case in this context themselves. Its common ground to anyone used to reading about these issues not some bizarre example I've plucked out of the air to shock in bad faith.

It is bad faith to suggest that if the law changes that Ďsomethingí might happen. If we followed that logic to itís natural conclusion, if the law changes we might all be required to change genders and be called Brian. If the law changes we might all have to hop on one leg.

Maria Millarís consultation document took evidence from the prison service and evidence from medics who treat prisoners. Both said that it was common for prisoner to fake conditions that they assumed would gain their privileges in prison. The government, the prison service and medics who work in prisons, are aware that the prison population arenít the most honest bunch in society. Iím happy to assume that this advice will be taken on board by sane people and the law will be drafted appropriately.

Then we have a couple of chambers of government that it needs to be passed by before it is made into law.

Quote
What discernible impact it has on mine and other womens lives is a matter for us. You're not in a position to make that assessment for us.

Someone elseís paperwork burden, has no impact on you. Do you have evidence that you have been impacted by the GRA in the last 14 years?

Again, there is no suggestion that any paperwork will be required and that is concerning.

And of the two chambers the law has to pass through, in the House of Commons the opposition are committed to the legislation passing already and the other chamber does not have the right to veto it. If your argument is that Parliament never passes harmful laws - then I don't share your confidence.

And consultations exist to input how people feel they may be affected. They are legally obliged to consult women but so far their consultations have been transcentric and included some throughly odd, off the wall bodies.

The Bristol footage includes the woman filming going outside to try and find police and being told by the transactivists who are mocking her, that they are inside. The fact at some other stage they are outside just shows that people do move around in time and space.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 23, 2018, 02:00:22 AM
And since then, I've been much more interested in classic socialist feminist concerns like equal pay than in whether a man wants to wear a dress. That's actually what I think the division is but on a phone, I'll have to summarize it as queer theory in the middle class camp and pay disparity in the working class one.

I love you.

Iím in Ireland, where weíre repealing the 8th amendment and chasing rapists that the British legal system allowed to walk free, to ground. Itís so fecking refreshing.

And yet you have so much faith in it.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on Apr 23, 2018, 02:02:23 AM

I wouldn't know. I've never been on there. I've always just assumed I wasn't entitled to because I'm not a Mum.

Thereís nothing about being a mum in the terms and conditions. I think the name is a tiny bit ironic, they have men, non parents, all sorts. I was enjoying it no end until I ventured into the Feminist section and made a few posts. Iíd be the first to admit that my style of debate is robust but Iíve never been one for personal abuse of insults but that didnít cut it there.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on Apr 23, 2018, 02:21:56 AM


The consultation document doesnít say suggest that paperwork with be unnecessary but itís just illogical to claim that it could be. How will someone be able to change their birth certificate/passport/driverís licence without paperwork?

Quote
And of the two chambers the law has to pass through, in the House of Commons the opposition are committed to the legislation passing already and the other chamber does not have the right to veto it. If your argument is that Parliament never passes harmful laws - then I don't share your confidence.

Okay, well if you believe that youíve spotted some holes in the consultation document, isnít the normal way to address that, to write to your MP who will contact the relevant minister? Isnít that how democracy works?

Quote
And consultations exist to input how people feel they may be affected. They are legally obliged to consult women but so far their consultations have been transcentric and included some throughly odd, off the wall bodies.

Can you give me an example of how a trans person filling in a two page form as apposed to a 28 page form for will affect Ďwomení. We both know that people have been able to change their legal gender for 14 years, thatís not being consulted on, just the paperwork changes.


Quote
The Bristol footage includes the woman filming going outside to try and find police and being told by the transactivists who are mocking her, that they are inside. The fact at some other stage they are outside just shows that people do move around in time and space.

You really donít like the idea of a counter demonstration, do you? The right to free speech doesnít include the right not to be disagreed with or demonstrated against. The police were there, that the women went over to the demonstrator to ask where the police were, suggests that she didnít find them overly intimidating.

These meeting arenít women calming discussing legal changes. The one that took place in the Commons, hosted a woman who was under investigation by the police for malicious communication as a hate crime, another who was suspended from the Labour Party for harassment of a trans teenager  and a woman who claims that transgenderism is a sexual fetish. It was hosted by an MP who has said that no one wants a gay child and made some homophobic quip about gay marriage. He is now under investigation himself for hosting such people.

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/03/15/anti-trans-activists-hit-out-at-parasitic-trans-people-at-event-in-parliament/ (https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/03/15/anti-trans-activists-hit-out-at-parasitic-trans-people-at-event-in-parliament/)
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 23, 2018, 09:32:43 AM
To be a counter-demonstration there has to be an actual demonstration to counter. Women attending a meeting whether it be at the House of Commons, or in a library or community space, is not a demonstration.

Masked men blocking them from entering the meeting on the staircase is not freedom of speech. Its the opposite.

I had to snort at your attempt to undermine the participants as if the fact that you didn't agree with them or they didn't conform to some notion of serenity then they lose the right to speak or assemble unmolested. All of the examples you gave are transactivists attempts to silence anyone who disagrees with them. Whether its challenges by women in the Labour Party to get the Labour Party to use its existing policy for All Women Shortlists rather than make self-identification a basis for eligibility or for eligibility as a Women's Officer, labelling words they disagree with as "actual violence" and therefore malicious communictions or the elevation of someone being complained about for organising a meeting becoming a slur of being "under investigation".

"That the women went over to the demonstrator to ask where the police were, suggests that she didnít find them overly intimidating." No, she didn't go over to them to ask where the police were. They were standing above her on the stairs wearing masks blocking her from getting into the meeting. She was not trying to approach them to ask where the police were like they were helpfully doling out directions. She was trying to get past them to get into the meeting and they wouldn't let her. And in the course of that they informed her that the police were already inside. Anyone defending that behaviour is not someone merely defending free speech but justifying women being silenced and intimidated.

The original Gender Recognition Act and the proposed Gender Recognition Act are not Transgender Recognition Acts. So of course they effect women. They effect everyone.

The original Gender Recognition Act was not based on self-definition. There had to be objective evidence including medical evidence and a sense of permanence before a person could be recognised in that particular gender. The changes are not admin in terms of a page count. They change the basis on which gender is recognised not just the procedure.

The proposed Gender Recognition Act is based on pure self-definition. The person claiming that gender for whatever reason doesn't have to even identify as trans to qualify. It can be the bloke 4 doors down who is on the Sex Offenders Register. He may not even have to fill in a form whether it be 2 pages long or 148 pages long. It may just require a verbal self declaration for whatever individual purpose he is seeking to self identify. He may not want to change his driving licence, passport or birth certificate. He may not be obliged to do so. In fact, avoiding all of that admin seems to be the point of this legislation. The requirement of some level of objectivity, some medical evidence and some permanency was a protection for women which meant any old Twitter creep couldn't speak in our name or access our resources without question.

The Pink News article is a classic example of how the LGBT establishment has failed lesbians and bi women. This is the publication that demonised the victim and championed the violent teen who assaulted her at Speakers Corner yet failed to even report the conviction when the transwoman attacker was found guilty in Court. It has constantly maintained an anti-feminist rhetoric. Unless its writing about transwomen or Kylie its general approach to women is "euw!"
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Apr 23, 2018, 09:36:27 AM
Ok, so as I understand it, a new law would mean people could self-declared their gender, then fill out a form to receive the relevant documentation so they can change their birth certificate, passport etc, instead of the current system where they have to be living as that gender for two years and have some sort of psychiatric assessment.  Surely by changing oneís gender, under the law it would change their entitlement to certain services and provision,? Thing is, as a disabled person and a person with a psychiatric illness, I have to jump through all sorts of hoops in order to demonstrably prove my disability. Even though itís quite obvious that Iím blind, I canít just walk into the council and demand a bus pass without the relevant paperwork and medical evidence. I canít even continue to claim benefits without periodically having to prove that my eyes havenít magically got better. I know this is a slightly different analogy and Iím not suggesting that the level of bureaucracy I have to deal with it in any way acceptable or desirable for anyone, but surely there has to be checks and balances where provision and services are allocated? Also, what about if a trans-woman becomes ill with a disease that only affects men, prostate cancer for example? Presumably if they are female they wonít be entitled to treatment, as treatment for prostate cancer is specifically and only for men? Would they then have to jump through a lot of hoops to prove that actually, they are genetically and biologically male?     
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 23, 2018, 09:42:03 AM
Ok, so as I understand it, a new law would mean people could self-declared their gender, then fill out a form to receive the relevant documentation so they can change their birth certificate, passport etc, instead of the current system where they have to be living as that gender for two years and have some sort of psychiatric assessment.  Surely by changing oneís gender, under the law it would change their entitlement to certain services and provision,? Thing is, as a disabled person and a person with a psychiatric illness, I have to jump through all sorts of hoops in order to demonstrably prove my disability. Even though itís quite obvious that Iím blind, I canít just walk into the council and demand a bus pass without the relevant paperwork and medical evidence. I canít even continue to claim benefits without periodically having to prove that my eyes havenít magically got better. I know this is a slightly different analogy and Iím not suggesting that the level of bureaucracy I have to deal with it in any way acceptable or desirable for anyone, but surely there has to be checks and balances where provision and services are allocated? Also, what about if a trans-woman becomes ill with a disease that only affects men, prostate cancer for example? Presumably if they are female they wonít be entitled to treatment, as treatment for prostate cancer is specifically and only for men? Would they then have to jump through a lot of hoops to prove that actually, they are genetically and biologically male?     

You also need to medically prove you have mobility problems to get a disability parking badge but there need be no objective basis for gender recognition if the changes go through. Its going to be a mere self-declaration. I am whatever I say I am for whatever purpose. Whether or not you even have to change your driving licence, birth certificate etc is not apparent.

And anyone can see that potentially effects womens resources and spaces.

At the end of the day, the current requirements of the GRA may be too onerous or problematic. It doesn't mean the only option is to remove all hurdles and make it a matter of pure self-identification.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Apr 23, 2018, 10:14:22 AM
To be fair one doesnít have to prove mobility difficulties to get a blue badge. I could get one and I can walk fine, but I would certainly have to provide medical evidence of my disability.
 If this legislation does pass presumedly I could bring about legal action, saying that my having to prove my disability is discriminatory and I should be able to self declare.
 Also, having been given a gender recognition certificate, is it legally binding? Could somebody obtain one to say, move them self up the housing list on the basis of their need, then get a council house and resume their life as a mail?  It does seem like it would be rather easy to exploit, and not just for sexual predators. If an employer was operating a quota system, and a certain promotion was open to a female member of staff, would it not be possible for someone to change their gender, get the job, then resume being a man? I know it all sounds a bit far-fetched but if thereís a way to get money or advantage then some people will do it. There are plenty of aggrieved men out there, and Iím sure they would love a new way to further uphold the patriarchy, Plus I wouldnít trust this fucking government to pass any legislation based on balance or good sense, their minds just do not work that way. Normally when they want to abolish red tape there something in it for them.This whole thing is predicated on the idea that there is a level of honesty, equality and fair play involved, where there isnít, and not everybody is equal, and further blurring the lines will not make it so.       
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Rachael on Apr 23, 2018, 10:16:42 AM
Just going to throw this into the mix, as it is something that is actually happening and not a hypothetical:

The International Olympic Committee recently changed/implemented a rule that a transgender person is eligible to compete as their chosen gender if they test 'within limits' of that genders hormonal profile for 2 years.

So if Usain Bolt were to transition and 3 years later come back into competition as a woman, that would be totally fine and to disagree with it would be transphobic.

The women who were formerly at the top of their sport are not allowed to argue that they are now coming 2nd to Ms Bolt - that is transphobic.


Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 23, 2018, 10:19:58 AM
To be fair one doesnít have to prove mobility difficulties to get a blue badge. I could get one and I can walk fine, but I would certainly have to provide medical evidence of my disability.       

Yes because there is an automatic exemption for blind people. Generally, you do need to evidence mobility problems. But yeah, you would still need to evidence problems with your sight regardless.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Apr 23, 2018, 10:25:11 AM
 Indeed, itís not even one of these cuts both ways things, because it most certainly wouldnít work in the other direction.
 This is why Iím so conflicted, I donít want to be insensitive, I have plenty of empathy and I can see things from both sides, but a lot of it does still point to male advantage. One doesnít tend to hear so much from transmen, or certainly not that Iíve come across, it just seems to be a lot of biologically male people demanding concessions and wishing to centre the narrative on themselves. 
 This post was in response to Rachel by the way. Me and BCFC must have crossed posted.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 23, 2018, 10:32:05 AM
Also, having been given a gender recognition certificate, is it legally binding? Could somebody obtain one to say, move them self up the housing list on the basis of their need, then get a council house and resume their life as a mail?  It does seem like it would be rather easy to exploit, and not just for sexual predators. If an employer was operating a quota system, and a certain promotion was open to a female member of staff, would it not be possible for someone to change their gender, get the job, then resume being a man? I know it all sounds a bit far-fetched but if thereís a way to get money or advantage then some people will do it. There are plenty of aggrieved men out there, and Iím sure they would love a new way to further uphold the patriarchy, Plus I wouldnít trust this fucking government to pass any legislation based on balance or good sense, their minds just do not work that way. Normally when they want to abolish red tape there something in it for them.This whole thing is predicated on the idea that there is a level of honesty, equality and fair play involved, where there isnít, and not everybody is equal, and further blurring the lines will not make it so.       

I don't think that its even clear whether you would need to apply for a gender recognition certificate or whether everything will be a case of simply just declaring yourself whatever gender for whatever purpose - and that being determinative of the issue. "I am what I say I am. Tomorrow I might say I'm something else. You can't question that."

In terms of the potential for abuse, its amazing how we see "Me too" culture which is based on men systematically ignoring boundaries and taking advantage of power and situations to get sexual access to and abuse women yet anyone saying this self id system is open for abuse is liable to accusations of ridicule.

I was arguing with a gay man friend about All Women Shortlists in the Labour Party and why we sometimes needed them and how they weren't there to validate anyone's gender identity but to give women a voice in an arena that systematically speaks over them and I made some comment about maybe he'd be eligible to stand because he occassionally id's as gender non-binary and how ridiculous that was if he became the womens' voice of his constituency. He turned around and said actually, he wouldn't rule himself out from standing for an all women shortlist as he feels he has a "balanced male and female side". I've learnt never to underestimate the potential for men to trample all over womens boundaries and ask questions later.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on Apr 23, 2018, 10:37:01 AM
Quote
I had to snort at your attempt to undermine the participants as if the fact that you didn't agree with them or they didn't conform to some notion of serenity then they lose the right to speak or assemble unmolested. All of the examples you gave are transactivists attempts to silence anyone who disagrees with them. Whether its challenges by women in the Labour Party to get the Labour Party to use its existing policy for All Women Shortlists rather than make self-identification a basis for eligibility or for eligibility as a Women's Officer, labelling words they disagree with as "actual violence" and therefore malicious communictions or the elevation of someone being complained about for organising a meeting becoming a slur of being "under investigation".

Bring underinvesteigation, isnít a slur, itís a fact. When the police interview someone under caution and then refer the case to the CPS, I canít think of a better phrase than Ďunder investigationí, can you?

I see this claim of Ďbeing slicencedí thrown out a lot, I think that when members of a group regularly appear on TV, are interviewed in the Times almost every weekend and help with articles in the Daily Mail on what feels like an almost daily basis, are amazingly active on social media and hold meetings every couple of weeks, Ďbeing sliencedí is a very odd phrase I use about their activities.

I find their tactics to be very reminiscent of the alt right, usually when I make any sort of supportive comment about trans people on social media or share any factual information, Iím subject to a Ďpile oní. This starts with aggressive misgendering, Iím called a man, Iím then called misogynistic names, like Ďhandmaidení, Iím accused of having a limp dick, very few of them seem to be willing to play the ball and not the player. I found that intimidating to start with, I was slienced for a while but Iíve bounced back. Of course, I donít hold you personally responsible for these actions, Iím sure that you wouldnít do it yourself but I would like to see a bit more condemnation from the rest of the Ďgen crití community.

I think that the phrase Ďactual violenceí is so misunderstood that itís ill advised to keep using it but it is supposed to convey thr link between this kind of inflammatory action and actual violence. After meeting in Cardiff, nazi and transphobic graffiti appeared in the city, that is dangerous stuff and demonstrates how words leads to actions and that those actions are sometimes violent.

You seem a little misinformed about the objectives of A Womanís Place,they arenít looking to stop changes to the GRA, they are looking to roll back the protections to the GRA 2004, it says so on their posters and everything. Iíll pop up a link later, when Iím not on my phone.


Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on Apr 23, 2018, 10:52:04 AM
Quote
Thing is, as a disabled person and a person with a psychiatric illness, I have to jump through all sorts of hoops in order to demonstrably prove my disability. Even though itís quite obvious that Iím blind, I canít just walk into the council and demand a bus pass without the relevant paperwork and medical evidence.

There are rightly, assistances given to those with a disability that arenít given to people based on gender. While, by every conceivable measure itís easier to be a man than a women, I canít think of a single official break that gender gives a person. Therefore, Iíd suggest that sexuality rather than disability is a better comparison.

Iíve never had to Ďproveí to anyone that Iím a lesbian. Iíve never had to live in a lesbian role for a couple of years or provided paperwork or a doctorís note to prove my sexuality. The scant number of specialist services open to me, as a lesbian, have always been open on the basis of self ID. As far as Iím aware, those services are not being abused. Why would they, what would be the point?

I hate to drag feminism into this but we live donít live in a society where there is any advantage to being a woman or a lesbian, there is not tax break, no lower rate insurance, no aids are supplied by thr council, no financial incentive. I can think of a single situation in which being a woman advantages anyone, itís quite the opposite.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 23, 2018, 10:59:24 AM
Quote
I had to snort at your attempt to undermine the participants as if the fact that you didn't agree with them or they didn't conform to some notion of serenity then they lose the right to speak or assemble unmolested. All of the examples you gave are transactivists attempts to silence anyone who disagrees with them. Whether its challenges by women in the Labour Party to get the Labour Party to use its existing policy for All Women Shortlists rather than make self-identification a basis for eligibility or for eligibility as a Women's Officer, labelling words they disagree with as "actual violence" and therefore malicious communictions or the elevation of someone being complained about for organising a meeting becoming a slur of being "under investigation".

Bring underinvesteigation, isnít a slur, itís a fact. When the police interview someone under caution and then refer the case to the CPS, I canít think of a better phrase than Ďunder investigationí, can you?

I see this claim of Ďbeing sliencedí thrown out a lot, I think that when members of a group regularly appear on TV, are interviewed in the Times almost every weekend and help with articles in the Daily Mail on what feels like an almost daily basis, are amazingly active on social media and hold meetings every couple of weeks, Ďbeing sliencedí is a very odd phrase I use about their activities.

I find their tactics to be very reminiscent of the alt right, usually when I make any sort of supportive comment about trans people on social media or share any factual information, Iím subject to a Ďpile oní. This starts with aggressive misgendering, Iím called a man, Iím then called misogynistic names, like Ďhandmaidení, Iím accused of having a limp dick, very few of them seem to be willing to play the ball and not the player. I found that intimidating to start with, I was slienced for a while but Iíve bounced back. Of course, I donít hold you personally responsible for these actions, Iím sure that you wouldnít do it yourself but I would like to see a bit more condemnation from the rest of the Ďgen crití community.

I think that the phrase Ďactual violenceí is so misunderstood that itís ill advised to keep using it but it is supposed to convey thr link between this kind of inflammatory action and actual violence. After meeting in Cardiff, nazi and transphobic graffiti appeared in the city, that is dangerous stuff and demonstrates how words leads to actions and that those actions are sometimes violent.

You seem a little misinformed about the objectives of A Womanís Place,they arenít looking to stop changes to the GRA, they are looking to roll back the protections to the GRA 2004, it says so on their posters and everything. Iíll pop up a link later, when Iím not on my phone.

I think if someone is under investigation because they organised a meeting to speak about stuff that other people don't want people to talk about, it is a slur to suggest that is some reason to discount them. Referred to the CPS or not. And the police refer to the CPS not necessarily because they think its a crime and there's evidence to convict but to ascertain, in niche areas of law, whether its even capable of being treated as a crime. Especially where there is vocal complaint by an organised lobby.

When attempts are made to physically stop people from holding meetings, when trustees of charities are being threatened to cancel bookings for venues, when people's employers are contacted because of their views posted on social media about gender, that is silencing.

I'm not talking about whether any particular group can be accurately described as being silenced and whether attempts to shout them down in one place is compensated by their access to the media in others. I don't particularly care what A Women's Place's Agenda is. I'm not bound by anyone's agenda.

I'm talking about women in general who want to talk about this issue. Whose opinions can't be and shouldn't be pre-supposed and shut down before they are even aired. So I can't have a discussion with Slantryhme like the one I have just had because someone like Tara Wolf feels that would result in her actual "extermination" - and if we tried to talk she could picket the venue we were trying to meet at, tweet that she was going to attack us in the build up to the meeting and then turn up and assault us. Then tell the judge that she had a mental illness and that should be ample mitigation. And the LGBT and leftie press would applaud the poor lamb because for even wanting to discuss the issues we are presumed to be "terfs" and therefore open season.

I don't share the language or all the views of Maria Maclachlan. I particularly don't like goading or imflamatory speech or gratuitous insults or indeed the obsession that some transactivists and self described rad fems have with each other. I don't believe anyone deserves anything less than the human rights that we all share.

I don't think Tara Wolf or those masked men in Bristol make any distinction between me, Maria Maclachlan and Jenny Murray from Womens Hour If we centre women, we're fair game and thats just wrong.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 23, 2018, 11:02:18 AM
Quote
Thing is, as a disabled person and a person with a psychiatric illness, I have to jump through all sorts of hoops in order to demonstrably prove my disability. Even though itís quite obvious that Iím blind, I canít just walk into the council and demand a bus pass without the relevant paperwork and medical evidence.
Iíve never had to Ďproveí to anyone that Iím a lesbian. Iíve never had to live in a lesbian role for a couple of years or provided paperwork or a doctorís note to prove my sexuality. The scant number of specialist services open to me, as a lesbian, have always been open on the basis of self ID. As far as Iím aware, those services are not being abused. Why would they, what would be the point?

If you had a beard, a penis and a long term lover called Malcolm I think you'd find your self-id as a lesbian was called into question a great deal more. its when there is objective evidence to the contrary that self id alone becomes problematic.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on Apr 23, 2018, 11:03:30 AM

The International Olympic Committee recently changed/implemented a rule that a transgender person is eligible to compete as their chosen gender if they test 'within limits' of that genders hormonal profile for 2 years
.

This is obviously a difficult and contentious area, I donít envy the IOC their job of trying to sort it out but it doesnít have anything to do with the gender recognition act or the proposed changes to it, competitors in the Olympics are assessed on hormone levels, not paperwork.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 23, 2018, 11:08:07 AM
Just going to throw this into the mix, as it is something that is actually happening and not a hypothetical:

The International Olympic Committee recently changed/implemented a rule that a transgender person is eligible to compete as their chosen gender if they test 'within limits' of that genders hormonal profile for 2 years.

So if Usain Bolt were to transition and 3 years later come back into competition as a woman, that would be totally fine and to disagree with it would be transphobic.

The women who were formerly at the top of their sport are not allowed to argue that they are now coming 2nd to Ms Bolt - that is transphobic.

Indeed. It is another example of how womens' interests took second place in the determination of the criteria and trans women's needs were placed at the centre of the issue which lead to obvious unfairness.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on Apr 23, 2018, 11:25:30 AM
If you had a beard, a penis and a long term lover called Malcolm I think you'd find your self-id as a lesbian was called into question a great deal more. its when there is objective evidence to the contrary that self id alone becomes problematic.

You see, that just feels a bit Ďdog whistleí to me. As far as we know, there isnít anyone with a beard and penis and a lover called Malcolm, calling themselves a lesbian but even if there were, I donít see what they would be depriving me of, by having a streamlined paperwork process.

I remember the exclusionists arguing that having the Ďbí for bisexuals tagged into the end on Lesbians and Gay would cause all kinds of structural problems. That theyíd be coming round here, querying our oppression but nothing of the sort happend. The only damage done was by people attempting to police the borders of who was a lesbian. In exactly the same way as is happening now.

In this interview, the lovely former Beerie, Ruth Hunt, mentions her partner being challenged in the loo of the BM for not being woman enough. It really gave me pause for thought about those creating an atmosphere of who can and canít be Ďa womaní and who the eventual victims of this will be. They might be coming for the trans women first but Iím not convinced that they wonít be coming for the butch women next.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2018/apr/20/stonewalls-ruth-hunt-tells-owen-jones-my-heart-breaks-for-trans-communities-video-interview (https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2018/apr/20/stonewalls-ruth-hunt-tells-owen-jones-my-heart-breaks-for-trans-communities-video-interview)
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 23, 2018, 11:38:23 AM
If you had a beard, a penis and a long term lover called Malcolm I think you'd find your self-id as a lesbian was called into question a great deal more. its when there is objective evidence to the contrary that self id alone becomes problematic.

You see, that just feels a bit Ďdog whistleí to me. As far as we know, there isnít anyone with a beard and penis and a lover called Malcolm, calling themselves a lesbian but even if there were, I donít see what they would be depriving me of, by having a streamlined paperwork process.

I remember the exclusionists arguing that having the Ďbí for bisexuals tagged into the end on Lesbians and Gay would cause all kinds of structural problems. That theyíd be coming round here, querying our oppression but nothing of the sort happend. The only damage done was by people attempting to police the borders of who was a lesbian. In exactly the same way as is happening now.

In this interview, the lovely former Beerie, Ruth Hunt, mentions her partner being challenged in the loo of the BM for not being woman enough. It really gave me pause for thought about those creating an atmosphere of who can and canít be Ďa womaní and who the eventual victims of this will be. They might be coming for the trans women first but Iím not convinced that they wonít be coming for the butch women next.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2018/apr/20/stonewalls-ruth-hunt-tells-owen-jones-my-heart-breaks-for-trans-communities-video-interview (https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2018/apr/20/stonewalls-ruth-hunt-tells-owen-jones-my-heart-breaks-for-trans-communities-video-interview)

Which says that gender non-conformity is a not just a trans issue.

I've watched that interview which Owen Jones posted under the headline "Trans rights aren't an attack on womens rights" several times now. Still can't see where it deals with the issue of any conflict and reconciliation between womens rights and trans demands and how gender recognition by self determination constitutes an actual "right" rather than a self serving wish. Ruth appears to do nothing but retweet Paris Lees all day. There's a huge queue forming behind her of people willing to do that for over £100,000 per year. Another example of how the LGBT establishment pockets the cash and sticks to the narrative of the cockocracy.

Does objecting to being accused of transphobia if you reject cock constitute, "policing the boundaries of being a lesbian" now?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: [...] on Apr 23, 2018, 11:40:23 AM
It's early days but the potential for extra civil service jobs is huge. To protect us from an uncontrolled influx of bearded ladies, there should be an annual quota set at a percentage of the population. Trans people should apply to be added to the list of applicants and in the meanwhile, to prove their sincerity, register fortnightly with the police, like other law abiding aliens. There would be a fast track available to those with an annual income of over £100k. Tests in the form of 40 computer generated random questions could be completed online and successful results would be valid for two years. There'd be a separate verbal reasoning test conducted face to face with especially trained examiners conducting interviews designed to find out if the applicant had a well rounded understanding of life in the target gender. The range of industries that might spin off from this initiative could plug some of the gap created by Brexit. I can see the study packs now, Are You a Woman Level A1, A2, B1, B2 and B3. If a few years down the line they realised that the computer system they'd commissioned was impossible to maintain and should be scrapped, all the trans people whose records would be lost would have to begin the application again. And this might happen in the same year that the PM was meeting with trans representatives and making speeches about how much the country values the trans community's contribution.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 23, 2018, 11:48:13 AM
It's early days but the potential for extra civil service jobs is huge. To protect us from an uncontrolled influx of bearded ladies, there should be an annual quota set at a percentage of the population. Trans people should apply to be added to the list of applicants and in the meanwhile, to prove their sincerity, register fortnightly with the police, like other law abiding aliens. There would be a fast track available to those with an annual income of over £100k. Tests in the form of 40 computer generated random questions could be completed online and successful results would be valid for two years. There'd be a separate verbal reasoning test conducted face to face with especially trained examiners conducting interviews designed to find out if the applicant had a well rounded understanding of life in the target gender. The range of industries that might spin off from this initiative could plug some of the gap created by Brexit. I can see the study packs now, Are You a Woman Level A1, A2, B1, B2 and B3. If a few years down the line they realised that the computer system they'd commissioned was impossible to maintain and should be scrapped, all the trans people whose records would be lost would have to begin the application again. And this might happen in the same year that the PM was meeting with trans representatives and making speeches about how much the country values the trans community's contribution.

Yes , great analogy. We should just self declare nationality as well and that should also be legally binding. I've decided I'm Swedish today. I assume I now qualify for the bob sleigh team.

Still talking about this irrelevance aren't we? What about the gender pay gap, polar ice caps melting, whatabout, whatabout, whatabout.....
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on Apr 23, 2018, 11:48:41 AM
Quote
I think if someone is under investigation because they organised a meeting to speak about stuff that other people don't want people to talk about, it is a slur to suggest that is some reason to discount them.

Sorry but youíve got the wrong end of the stick here, she wasnít under investigation for organisation a meeting she was under investigation for sending malicious communications as a hate crime, direct, targeted harassment at a member to a member of a protected minority group.


Quote
I'm talking about women in general who want to talk about this issue. Whose opinions can't be and shouldn't be pre-supposed and shut down before they are even aired. So I can't have a discussion with Slantryhme like the one I have just had because someone like Tara Wolf feels that would result in her actual "extermination" - and if we tried to talk she could picket the venue we were trying to meet at, tweet that she was going to attack us in the build up to the meeting and then turn up and assault us. Then tell the judge that she had a mental illness and that should be ample mitigation. And the LGBT and leftie press would applaud the poor lamb because for even wanting to discuss the issues we are presumed to be "terfs" and therefore open season.

Again, thatís utterly disingenuous. These meetings are taking place every couple of weeks. They are being demonstrated against but thatís the nature of free speech or, more accuratly, freedom of expression. Iím not going to defend Tara Wolfe, she behaved appallingly, but, equally I donít think that itís fair that every demonstrator has to take on collective responsibility for her actions.

I donít think that itís unreasonable to make a venue aware that a meeting will be showing photos of trans women and mocking their physical appearance before discussing how their legal protections should be withdrawn or that, despite Royal College of Psychiatrists stating otherwise, that transgenderism is a paraphilia and using that to dehumanise people. Venues can then make the decision about hosting that kind of meeting. Except in Cardiff, obviously, where the keys to a primary school seem to have been misappropriated, leaving the school with no say in the matter.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 23, 2018, 12:04:46 PM
Quote
I think if someone is under investigation because they organised a meeting to speak about stuff that other people don't want people to talk about, it is a slur to suggest that is some reason to discount them.

Sorry but youíve got the wrong end of the stick here, she wasnít under investigation for organisation a meeting she was under investigation for sending malicious communications as a hate crime, direct, targeted harassment at a member to a member of a protected minority group.


Quote
I'm talking about women in general who want to talk about this issue. Whose opinions can't be and shouldn't be pre-supposed and shut down before they are even aired. So I can't have a discussion with Slantryhme like the one I have just had because someone like Tara Wolf feels that would result in her actual "extermination" - and if we tried to talk she could picket the venue we were trying to meet at, tweet that she was going to attack us in the build up to the meeting and then turn up and assault us. Then tell the judge that she had a mental illness and that should be ample mitigation. And the LGBT and leftie press would applaud the poor lamb because for even wanting to discuss the issues we are presumed to be "terfs" and therefore open season.

Again, thatís utterly disingenuous. These meetings are taking place every couple of weeks. They are being demonstrated against but thatís the nature of free speech or, more accuratly, freedom of expression. Iím not going to defend Tara Wolfe, she behaved appallingly, but, equally I donít think that itís fair that every demonstrator has to take on collective responsibility for her actions.

I donít think that itís unreasonable to make a venue aware that a meeting will be showing photos of trans women and mocking their physical appearance before discussing how their legal protections should be withdrawn or that, despite Royal College of Psychiatrists stating otherwise, that transgenderism is a paraphilia and using that to dehumanise people. Venues can then make the decision about hosting that kind of meeting. Except in Cardiff, obviously, where the keys to a primary school seem to have been misappropriated, leaving the school with no say in the matter.

I thought you were talking about David Davis being under investigation for holding a meeting on the GRA at the House of Commons, which was one of your other references.

I think describing masked men standing on the stairwell of the meeting room with their arms spread out touching the walls so women can't get to the meeting as "free speech" is disingenuous.

I think relaying paranoid premonitions of what will be said at a meeting that hasn't happened even happened yet to harrass venues shows a total disregard for free speech.

Somewhere, someone will always be saying something you potentially disagree with. But they won't be sending masked men to close down a meeting of ex paratroopers supportive of further military intervention in Iraq. They'll only do that when the people being bullied are women and not likely to give them a backhander. And Tara Wolf and Riley J Dennis are getting their cues that their behaviour and assertions are ok from the LGBT media, the more established transactivists and from the failure of people like Ruth Hunt and Stonewall to condemn them.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on Apr 23, 2018, 12:05:37 PM
Quote
Still can't see where it deals with the issue of any conflict and reconciliation between womens rights and trans demands and how gender recognition by self determination constitutes an actual "right" rather than a self serving wish. Ruth appears to do nothing but retweet Paris Lees all day. There's a huge queue forming behind her of people willing to do that for over £100,000 per year. Another example of how the LGBT establishment pockets the cash and sticks to the narrative of the cockocracy.

I thought you didnít like goading or inflammatory speech or gratuitous insults? I also thought that everyone loved Ruth but hereís Peter Tatchell saying the same thing, on a lower salary.

http://www.petertatchellfoundation.org/gender-recognition-act-time-for-reform/ (http://www.petertatchellfoundation.org/gender-recognition-act-time-for-reform/)

Putting that aside, how do you imagine that womenís intrests will conflict with this. Iíd really appreciate some concrete examples, not slippery slope arguments about nonexistent Mrs Malcolms becasue youíre claiming that this issue has made the gender paygap Ďwhatabouteryí to feminism.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 23, 2018, 12:23:47 PM
Quote
Still can't see where it deals with the issue of any conflict and reconciliation between womens rights and trans demands and how gender recognition by self determination constitutes an actual "right" rather than a self serving wish. Ruth appears to do nothing but retweet Paris Lees all day. There's a huge queue forming behind her of people willing to do that for over £100,000 per year. Another example of how the LGBT establishment pockets the cash and sticks to the narrative of the cockocracy.

I thought you didnít like goading or inflammatory speech or gratuitous insults? I also thought that everyone loved Ruth but hereís Peter Tatchell saying the same thing, on a lower salary.

http://www.petertatchellfoundation.org/gender-recognition-act-time-for-reform/ (http://www.petertatchellfoundation.org/gender-recognition-act-time-for-reform/)

Putting that aside, how do you imagine that womenís intrests will conflict with this. Iíd really appreciate some concrete examples, not slippery slope arguments about nonexistent Mrs Malcolms becasue youíre claiming that this issue has made the gender paygap Ďwhatabouteryí to feminism.

I was claiming the opposite actually. That was a reference to the "I'm more interested in the gender pay gap then men wearing skirts" line of whataboutery. You misunderstood the point of Mr. Malcolm too - which was negating the idea that self identification applies unproblematically to sexual orientation.

Yes, I found the Peter Tatchell article mansplaining to feminists why they are wrong about how women will be effected particularly priceless. I think women know a lot better than Peter Tatchell how their sex impacts on their daily interactions and what does and doesn't worry and concern them.

This is the risk adverse, insightful mind that wrote "not all sex involving children is unwanted, abusive and harmful', so yeah, I trust him as a great judge as to what will and will not effect women.

You've already had people give you several instances of how women can be disadvantaged by the abuse of self-identification in the arena of gender. Sports, prisons, womens facilities, not wanting to deal with male piss on the floor to name but a few. 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Apr 23, 2018, 12:27:33 PM
 But how in any way does this self ID benefit women?
 If a big company says they want to increase the amount of women in senior roles, and a bunch of men think, ok, well Iíll just become a woman and apply. Then get all the promotions and the company can say, look, 30% more women in senior positions, while not actually having anything of the sort. Itís not like men donít have a record of grabbing every advantage and opportunity for themselves, and of course corporations and government departments love a convenient way to cook their books to make them look more inclusive then they actually are.
Of course, for the sake of balance,  I could become a man if I chose, but I would still be subject to all the implicit bias that has already been constructed. I could already go into the menís toilet, but God forbid anything should happen to me while I was in there. I would have been asking for it, what did I expect would happen and all thatÖ? In what way does any of this advance womenís equality? Seems like we could be open to encountering all sorts of negative knock-on effects, while seeing no advantages whatsoever.
 By all means make gender recognition more accessible and less traumatic, but self declaration says nothing about the person or their motives. Just like anything else, there needs to be a demonstrable need and evidence to back it up. This whole self ID thing seems to be driven by a bunch of people who have been raised and socialised as male, are  biologically male, and have absolutely no notion of what it is to be or live as a biological female with all that that entails.         
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on Apr 23, 2018, 12:29:33 PM
I thought you were talking about David Davis being under investigation for holding a meeting on the GRA at the House of Commons, which was one of your other references
.

Davis, the homophobe isnít being investigated by the police, itís an internal investigation by the commons for misleading them over what he was booking the room for.


Quote
I think relaying paranoid premonitions of what will be said at a meeting that hasn't happened even happened yet to harrass venues shows a total disregard for free speech.

Well you can call me paranoid but when there is a series of meeting, in different parts of the country, organised by the same people, with the same format, itís not an unreasonable stretch to say that what happened at the last one is likely to happen at the next.

Quote
Somewhere, someone will always be saying something you potentially disagree with. But they won't be sending masked men to close down a meeting of ex paratroopers supportive of further military intervention in Iraq. They'll only do that when the people being bullied are women and not likely to give them a backhander. And Tara Wolf and Riley J Dennis are getting their cues that their behaviour and assertions are ok from the LGBT media, the more established transactivists and from the failure of people like Ruth Hunt and Stonewall to condemn them.

Firstly, most of the protesters outside the meeting in Bristol were women from Sisters Uncut, the assertions that this was men on women is just inaccurate and deliberately inflammatory. Many trans people cover their faces becasue they donít want to end up in Julia Longís selection of photos of trans women to mock at the start of these meeting. There are also a number of websites where those attending these meeting that share photos of trans people to take the piss out of them. A friend of mine recently put a photo of herself with a new hair do, up on Twitter, only to find her image on a website that Ďexposes child sex offendersí. Now you can think what you like about whatís Ďliteral violenceí but that woman is now at risk.

Ruth Hunt isnít responsible for the actions of Tara Wolfe and has no responsibility to distance herself from them, any more than youíre responsible for the actions of the person who took that image and defamed my friend in the worst possible way.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 23, 2018, 12:40:57 PM
They you go, Top. We disagree about pretty much all of that and nobody died.

Including the reasons for the masks. You want to hide your face, why not get a butterfly, Venician style eye mask?

Or white, neutral one? You can get 10 white dust masks from Amazon for £2.28 and free delivery.

Why do that when you can dress all in black or in combat gear with a black mask over your face and bring your mate with their pit bull?

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on Apr 23, 2018, 12:43:58 PM
Slanty, new legislation doesnít have to Ďbenefit womení, you canít look for the personal win in every bit of human rights legislation, for example, if we go back to the disability example you gave earlier, I could say that help for blind peolle is of no,use to me as a woman. Not all women are blind, not even a disproportional number of women are blind, therefore it doesnít benefit women to have legislation around blind people.

However, I and, I assume, most fully sighted people would acknowledge the benefits of living in a society where the blind and visually impaired people and given as much help as possible to even out the playing field. Thatís a personal win for you and society gets the advantage of you being able to engage more.

Quote
If a big company says they want to increase the amount of women in senior roles, and a bunch of men think, ok, well Iíll just become a woman and apply. Then get all the promotions and the company can say, look, 30% more women in senior positions...

We can assume thatís not going to happen because it hasnít happened in countries that already have self ID, like Canada, Norway, Ireland, Belgium, Malta, Mexico and Denmark. I havenít done the research on all of the countries but I know that there isnít a single known case of misuse of the legislation in Ireland in the almost three years itís been in place. Of course, I canít claim that it would never happen, it might but we have to weigh up the chances of someone misusing the legislation against the greater good it does for the many.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Apr 23, 2018, 01:04:00 PM
 Firstly, just because you can see at the moment, doesnít mean you might not lose your eyesight tomorrow. I take your point about something not having to be a win for everybody, but if there is potential for disadvantage for the many then I canít get on board. I also wouldnít say that trans-people are in any way the many.
 Secondly, just because it hasnít happened yet, doesnít mean it wonít. The UK, let us not forget, is a particularly murky cesspool of corruption, where money is king and neither the government or big business could give a flying fuck about actual people. It would only take one test case (and pretty soon we wonít have the European Court of human rights to protect us) and it is overturned on some technical point of law, weíve got ourselves in a right legislative not, and Iím sure there will be plenty of people all too ready and willing to take advantage.  Itís not like we can trust this government to thoroughly consult, weigh up and stress test any new legislation.     
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on Apr 23, 2018, 01:26:59 PM
They you go, Top. We disagree about pretty much all of that and nobody died.

Including the reasons for the masks. You want to hide your face, why not get a butterfly, Venician style eye mask?

Or white, neutral one?

Why do that when you can dress all in black or in combat gear with a mask over your face and bring your mate with their pit bull?

If weíve actually got down to ĎI donít like the way that some people dress on a demonstration, therefore their views are invalid and their right to protest should be removedí we do disagree on everything. If youíre seriously giving fashion tips to demonstrators, well I just donít know what to say, except that you should go on a demo or two, theirs isnít an unusual form of attire.

It wasnít a pit bull either.  ;)

However, I would like to acknowledge that youíve made a coherent and logical argument that hasnít been based around personal abuse or dehumanising a minority group and thatís refreshing.

With all of the sartorial advice, I almost missed your concerns.

Quote
You've already had people give you several instances of how women can be disadvantaged by the abuse of self-identification in the arena of gender. Sports, prisons, womens facilities, not wanting to deal with male piss on the floor to name but a few. 

Firstly you start by presupposing that here is going to be abuse. As Iíve stated there is no evidence of abuse in countries that have already adopted self ID.

Sport

I agree that sport is a difficult area, however, it has nothing to do with Self iD, sporting bodies test hormone levels, they donít check paperwork.

Prisons

As Iíve said, the  Prison Service has been consulted and there is no reason to assume that their recommendations wonít be taken on board. At the moment, no one is allocated a prison place based on a GRC and there is no reason to assume that situation will change.

Interestingly,  there have been no reported cases of a trans woman attacking another women in prison and itís not something that thr Howard Leage for Penal Reform weíre concerned about in their report. They maintain that the biggest risk to female prisoners is male prison guards but if I bring up the people who actually sexually abuse women in prison, Iím accused of whataboutery.

Hereís some further reading, with links to research:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/transgender-prisons-jessica-winfield-gender-recognition-act-a7940561.html

Womenís Facilities

No one needs a GRC to enter a gendered loo in the UK. The Equalities Act of 2010 made it legal for anyone to use the loo that they are most comfortable with. There has been no associated increase in violent crime since this legislation came into force.

Piss on the Floor

Have you been to a nightclub in the last 30 years? Pissing on the floor is an area in which women have achieved total gender equality. I really donít know what to say if it really is a case of finding genetically male piss more offensive than genetically female piss, piss is piss.

In summary, none of the concerns youíve mentioned actually have anything to do with the proposed legislation.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on Apr 23, 2018, 01:34:32 PM
Firstly, just because you can see at the moment, doesnít mean you might not lose your eyesight tomorrow. I take your point about something not having to be a win for everybody, but if there is potential for disadvantage for the many then I canít get on board. I also wouldnít say that trans-people are in any way the many

I agree, I could become blind tomorrow and, equally I could find out that a child I love is transgendered tomorrow. None of us know whatís around the corner.

I didnít say that trans people were Ďthe manyí, they are, obviously a tiny minority of the population. I was saying that the overwhelming majority of trans people, Ďthe manyí would be advantaged by a change in legislation and that majority shouldnít have their rights curtailed by a currently hypothetical, few.


Quote
Secondly, just because it hasnít happened yet, doesnít mean it wonít. The UK, let us not forget, is a particularly murky cesspool of corruption, where money is king and neither the government or big business could give a flying fuck about actual people. It would only take one test case (and pretty soon we wonít have the European Court of human rights to protect us) and it is overturned on some technical point of law, weíve got ourselves in a right legislative not, and Iím sure there will be plenty of people all too ready and willing to take advantage.  Itís not like we can trust this government to thoroughly consult, weigh up and stress test any new legislation.     

So, I case bad law is written, no law should be written at all? Iím glad no one suggested that fifty years ago.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 23, 2018, 01:35:15 PM
There were a few Irish women with or without an agenda of their own who signed a letter anecdotedly confirming on behalf of a nation that nobody has been effected by it over there and that has entered the left political psyche as concrete proof that no one has ever abused the legislation ever, ever, ever in Ireland.

The question of whether anyone is receiving funding streams to monitor or research that or to poll people to measure the effects is not taken into account. In contrast to the money that was flying around like confetti amongst the usual beneficiaries over here to purport to measure the needs of trans people to justify the legislation. Nor is the difficulties of measuring how women may detrimentally change their behaviour and stop doing things they used to do, whether medical, socially or politically, in response to the changes mentioned. How do you measure the effect on women of abuse of gender legislation where self definition is allowed? How exactly do you do that?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: [...] on Apr 23, 2018, 01:52:35 PM
It's early days but the potential for extra civil service jobs is huge. To protect us from an uncontrolled influx of bearded ladies, there should be an annual quota set at a percentage of the population. Trans people should apply to be added to the list of applicants and in the meanwhile, to prove their sincerity, register fortnightly with the police, like other law abiding aliens. There would be a fast track available to those with an annual income of over £100k. Tests in the form of 40 computer generated random questions could be completed online and successful results would be valid for two years. There'd be a separate verbal reasoning test conducted face to face with especially trained examiners conducting interviews designed to find out if the applicant had a well rounded understanding of life in the target gender. The range of industries that might spin off from this initiative could plug some of the gap created by Brexit. I can see the study packs now, Are You a Woman Level A1, A2, B1, B2 and B3. If a few years down the line they realised that the computer system they'd commissioned was impossible to maintain and should be scrapped, all the trans people whose records would be lost would have to begin the application again. And this might happen in the same year that the PM was meeting with trans representatives and making speeches about how much the country values the trans community's contribution.

Yes , great analogy. We should just self declare nationality as well and that should also be legally binding. I've decided I'm Swedish today. I assume I now qualify for the bob sleigh team.

Still talking about this irrelevance aren't we? What about the gender pay gap, polar ice caps melting, whatabout, whatabout, whatabout.....

This isn't a 'what about' analogy. I was making a serious point. Would greater stringency satisfy the concerns about self identification being 'too easy'? Like what orthodox rabbis do to wouldbe Jewish converts. It's a legal/halachic requirement to refuse them I think three times and if they keep on insisting (to paraphrase Joyce, that they want to swap one impossible system for another) they're accepted and told they have to study and obey all the laws for a year or maybe two, and then pass some sort of test. After all that rigmarole, they're 'welcomed' into the community as converts. Would something like that, devised by the Home Sec when she has a moment, be the answer to stem the tide of men insisting they're women? In short, should trans people be made to work harder for recognition of their gender ID?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 23, 2018, 01:56:19 PM
They you go, Top. We disagree about pretty much all of that and nobody died.

Including the reasons for the masks. You want to hide your face, why not get a butterfly, Venician style eye mask?

Or white, neutral one?

Why do that when you can dress all in black or in combat gear with a mask over your face and bring your mate with their pit bull?

If weíve actually got down to ĎI donít like the way that some people dress on a demonstration, therefore their views are invalid and their right to protest should be removedí we do disagree on everything. If youíre seriously giving fashion tips to demonstrators, well I just donít know what to say, except that you should go on a demo or two, theirs isnít an unusual form of attire.

It wasnít a pit bull either.  ;)

However, I would like to acknowledge that youíve made a coherent and logical argument that hasnít been based around personal abuse or dehumanising a minority group and thatís refreshing.

With all of the sartorial advice, I almost missed your concerns.

Quote
You've already had people give you several instances of how women can be disadvantaged by the abuse of self-identification in the arena of gender. Sports, prisons, womens facilities, not wanting to deal with male piss on the floor to name but a few. 

Firstly you start by presupposing that here is going to be abuse. As Iíve stated there is no evidence of abuse in countries that have already adopted self ID.

Sport

I agree that sport is a difficult area, however, it has nothing to do with Self iD, sporting bodies test hormone levels, they donít check paperwork.

Prisons

As Iíve said, the  Prison Service has been consulted and there is no reason to assume that their recommendations wonít be taken on board. At the moment, no one is allocated a prison place based on a GRC and there is no reason to assume that situation will change.

Interestingly,  there have been no reported cases of a trans woman attacking another women in prison and itís not something that thr Howard Leage for Penal Reform weíre concerned about in their report. They maintain that the biggest risk to female prisoners is male prison guards but if I bring up the people who actually sexually abuse women in prison, Iím accused of whataboutery.

Hereís some further reading, with links to research:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/transgender-prisons-jessica-winfield-gender-recognition-act-a7940561.html

Womenís Facilities

No one needs a GRC to enter a gendered loo in the UK. The Equalities Act of 2010 made it legal for anyone to use the loo that they are most comfortable with. There has been no associated increase in violent crime since this legislation came into force.

Piss on the Floor

Have you been to a nightclub in the last 30 years? Pissing on the floor is an area in which women have achieved total gender equality. I really donít know what to say if it really is a case of finding genetically male piss more offensive than genetically female piss, piss is piss.

In summary, none of the concerns youíve mentioned actually have anything to do with the proposed legislation.

I think everybody can clearly see I'm not making a point about fashion and masks. There is a reason to do with maximum intimidation in the choice of masks being worn.

I don't know why you keep saying no trans woman is allocated a female prison on the basis of having a GRC. GRC or birth certificates is the first criteria for a womens prison. If they don't have those they then assess on a case by case basis. There is no reason whatsoever that prisons and sports will automatically be exempt from self definition.

Where would you look to find a reported case of a trans women attacking a female prisoner given that intra-prison assaults are usually dealt with by the Independent Adjudicator and not reported in UK law? And you are asking us to look backwards at transgendered prisoners with GRC's  in place not forwards to the risks under a new regime of self identification with your Ian Huntley's and your Category A males who may abuse it.

The Howard Legal have specifically looked at the treatment of trans women in male establishments and the suicide rate. They have never been commissioned to look at the risks to women prisoners from male prisoners self identifying as women.

I'm grateful for the reassurances you're giving us about how the changes won't actually effect us. Of course, your views have as much weight as anyone who is living outside the legal jurisdiction of England and Wales where they will apply.

Most women don't think piss is piss, by the way. To most women there is a discernible difference between man piss and our piss. And that matters to us. And what matters to us, matters.

Oh and I'm logging off for about a week now to make up on lost time, I should be working.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on Apr 23, 2018, 02:48:39 PM
There were a few Irish women with or without an agenda of their own who signed a letter anecdotedly confirming on behalf of a nation that nobody has been effected by it over there and that has entered the left political psyche as concrete proof that no one has ever abused the legislation ever, ever, ever in Ireland
.

Sorry but thatís two inaccuracies married together and presented as something that isnít opionion. Weíre the Irish version of a judicial review at the moment, itís called a Commission. The structure of the Commission is such that the evidence is presented in advance. No one has been able to find any evidence of a GRC being applied for fraudulently.

The Letter, was sent to A Womanís Place. It explained that Ireland was no longer a part of the UK and hadnít been for a while now and that we didnít appreciate groups with an imperialistic attitude dictating what Irish feminism should be doing. It wasnít signed by Ďa fewí it was signed by just about every prominent feminist in the country. 

The question of whether anyone is receiving funding streams to monitor or research that or to poll people to measure the effects is not taken into account. In contrast to the money that was flying around like confetti amongst the usual beneficiaries over here to purport to measure the needs of trans people to justify the legislation. Nor is the difficulties of measuring how women may detrimentally change their behaviour and stop doing things they used to do, whether medical, socially or politically, in response to the changes mentioned. How do you measure the effect on women of abuse of gender legislation where self definition is allowed? How exactly do you do that?
[/quote]
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 23, 2018, 02:53:21 PM
So that measures whether there is evidence of a GRC being fraudulently applied for.

It doesn't measure whether there has been any detrimental effect on women.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Apr 23, 2018, 02:57:17 PM
Firstly, just because you can see at the moment, doesnít mean you might not lose your eyesight tomorrow. I take your point about something not having to be a win for everybody, but if there is potential for disadvantage for the many then I canít get on board. I also wouldnít say that trans-people are in any way the many

I agree, I could become blind tomorrow and, equally I could find out that a child I love is transgendered tomorrow. None of us know whatís around the corner.

I didnít say that trans people were Ďthe manyí, they are, obviously a tiny minority of the population. I was saying that the overwhelming majority of trans people, Ďthe manyí would be advantaged by a change in legislation and that majority shouldnít have their rights curtailed by a currently hypothetical, few.


Quote
Secondly, just because it hasnít happened yet, doesnít mean it wonít. The UK, let us not forget, is a particularly murky cesspool of corruption, where money is king and neither the government or big business could give a flying fuck about actual people. It would only take one test case (and pretty soon we wonít have the European Court of human rights to protect us) and it is overturned on some technical point of law, weíve got ourselves in a right legislative not, and Iím sure there will be plenty of people all too ready and willing to take advantage.  Itís not like we can trust this government to thoroughly consult, weigh up and stress test any new legislation.     

So, I case bad law is written, no law should be written at all? Iím glad no one suggested that fifty years ago.
  Nobody is curtailing the rights of transgender people, they have the same amount of rights as me or you or anyone else. Also yes, Iíd rather have no law than bad law, especially when it could affect the safety and well-being of women. Iím afraid thereís not much about this world to convince me that people do the right thing. Iím sure 10 years ago if youíd said sick and disabled people are being driven to destitution, immigrants who have lived and worked in this country for half a century are being deported without recourse, or Donald Trump was in the White House it wouldíve been scoffed at.  It either has to be good, properly considered, properly consulted and stress tested law for me or not at all.     
 Sorry, stray smily. Not quite sure where that came from. Maybe that I was typing while eating a sandwich.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on Apr 23, 2018, 03:22:56 PM
Quote
I think everybody can clearly see I'm not making a point about fashion and masks. There is a reason to do with maximum intimidation in the choice of masks being worn.

Iíve clearly and repeatedly explained why some people were wearing masks. You obviously canít sympathise with what it would be like to have your face on a Ďknown child sex offenderí website or the impact that would have on someoneís life. Youíre claiming that they should have more approachable masks, especially bought so that they donít intimidate the people going into a venue to mock their appearance, in order to undermine their human rights.

Quote
I don't know why you keep saying no trans woman is allocated a female prison on the basis of having a GRC. GRC or birth certificates is the first criteria for a womens prison. If they don't have those they then assess on a case by case basis. There is no reason whatsoever that prisons and sports will automatically be exempt from self definition.

Youíre misrepresenting what Iíve said, which was that a GRC isnít the only criteria for allocation of a prison place. Some trans women with GRCs  are in female prisons, some in male prisons.

Have you heard of Hitchenís Razor, at all? It states that, that without evidence a claim can be dismissed without evidence. Iíve told you that this is unlikely to happen because the prison service and medics treating transgender prisoners, have been consulted and their concerns noted. You keep saying that it might happen because it might happen, without offering proof or even a theory of evidence. I think you need to shit or get off the pot.

Quote
Where would you look to find a reported case of a trans women attacking a female prisoner given that intra-prison assaults are usually dealt with by the Independent Adjudicator and not reported in UK law? And you are asking us to look backwards at transgendered prisoners with GRC's  in place not forwards to the risks under a new regime of self identification with your Ian Huntley's and your Category A males who may abuse it.

So you have no evidence that it has happened, Iím glad thatís on the table. Iím offering that, if it had happened the Maria Millarís consultation would have been a perfect place to bring it up but it wasnít.


Quote
I'm grateful for the reassurances you're giving us about how the changes won't actually effect us. Of course, your views have as much weight as anyone who is living outside the legal jurisdiction of England and Wales where they will apply.

Do you have any evidence that thr British jurisdiction is so different from the diverse list of countries that Iíve listed that their experiences canít be extrapolated? 

Quote
Most women don't think piss is piss, by the way. To most women there is a discernible difference between man piss and our piss. And that matters to us. And what matters to us, matters.

Most women, eh? Are you going to point me in the direction of evidence for that claim or shall we just let it slide? Most women, share domestic bathrooms with men, they arenít as lucky as us. Some even share bathrooms with male children, who, I understand usually have a worse aim than adults.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on Apr 23, 2018, 03:58:23 PM
  Nobody is curtailing the rights of transgender people, they have the same amount of rights as me or you or anyone else. Also yes, Iíd rather have no law than bad law, especially when it could affect the safety and well-being of women. Iím afraid thereís not much about this world to convince me that people do the right thing. Iím sure 10 years ago if youíd said sick and disabled people are being driven to destitution, immigrants who have lived and worked in this country for half a century are being deported without recourse, or Donald Trump was in the White House it wouldíve been scoffed at.  It either has to be good, properly considered, properly consulted and stress tested law for me or not at all
.     

Curtailing the rights of transgender people is exactly what the groups weíve been discussing at trying to do. They are calling for the roll back of the 14 year old gender recognition act. Thatís the point of dehumanising trans people at their meetings.

As Iím sure you will have experienced, the same rights doesnít always mean equal right, to go back to your anology, if you and I pitched up at the library and were both handed the same book, that we be treating us the same but it wouldnít be treating us equally because your book reading needs are different to mine. Before we can be treated equally our individual needs have to be taken into consideration.

Saying that youíd rather have no new law, on the offf chance that it might affect you, in an unspecified way in the future because no one saw Donald Trump coming, is, I guess, a stab at the law of unintended consequences. So Iíll remind you, that the social scientists tell us that the law of unintended consequences is a two way street, sometimes we get an unforeseen good but both the good and bad outcomes can usually be dismissed because people are good at working out real problems.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Apr 23, 2018, 05:26:52 PM
 But is anybody at government level actually considering repealing the gender recognition act?
 Also, what extra rights would self ID confer on a trans-person that arenít already covered by the gender recognition act, apart from cutting down on admin?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Lyco on Apr 23, 2018, 06:09:37 PM
There were a few Irish women with or without an agenda of their own who signed a letter anecdotedly confirming on behalf of a nation that nobody has been effected by it over there and that has entered the left political psyche as concrete proof that no one has ever abused the legislation ever, ever, ever in Ireland.

I'm not an expert but there's 5 million people here in Ireland. The slightest controversial thing is known almost immediately by the entire country. It genuinely is a place where if you meet someone from Dublin down here in the furthest and most remote corner of West Cork you can ask if they know so-and-so and they probably will. It takes me aback all the time.

But I also know that means if anyone had ever abused the legislation everyone would know about it. There's plenty of people who get air and media time who argued until they were blue in the face that equal marriage would lead to the breakdown of society and I very much doubt they'd be keeping quiet if a single predatory man had abused the system.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on Apr 23, 2018, 06:27:14 PM
But is anybody at government level actually considering repealing the gender recognition act?
 Also, what extra rights would self ID confer on a trans-person that arenít already covered by the gender recognition act, apart from cutting down on admin?

The information is in the link I supplied from the Peter Thatchell Foundation, here it is again:

http://www.petertatchellfoundation.org/gender-recognition-act-time-for-reform/ (http://www.petertatchellfoundation.org/gender-recognition-act-time-for-reform/)

Of course, no one in government is taking those fuckwits seriously but, like the BNP, they donít have to be taken seriously at a governmental level to cause harm. Dehumanising trans people by call them parasitic and putting their photos up on screen to be mocked, creates a hostile environment. We saw transphobic and Nazi graffiti in Cardiff, after their meeting. That leads to trans people feeling and being less safe. Weíve also seen examples of cis women being challenged in public loos for not looking Ďwoman enoughí.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on Apr 23, 2018, 07:56:40 PM
Quote
She thought that morally she had the right to do that. So sometimes they moderated well and others times they will have got it wrong but the remarkable thing is they refused to be bullied into closing the debate. And there are transactivists posting all over social media who definately want them closed down for just that.

Can I correct you there, I do know the woman involved there and youíve misrepresented what happened. Basically, she screwed up. She took information that was in the public domain and accidentally left some IP addresses on. That was a mistake, she acknowledged she was wrong and removed it immediately. She has since apologised and undertaken not to publish the information again.

The thread calling for a Section 28 for trans people is still being published by Mumsnet. That is transphobic. That does deserve publicity, it does deserve debate and it would have got an awful lot more if the whistleblower hadnít screwed up.

Mumsnet have had an influx of newbies starting provocative threads such as the section 28 one in the last fortnight and delete them but not before the newbie / trans activist screenshots the thread name and then posted that on twitter as proof that Mumsnet is transphobic.
Here is someone admitting the trolling in order to shut debate down!
file:///storage/sdcard0/Download/Dbd0E9BXcAMIbK9.jpeg

That's not democracy. Its hounding spaces to shut down any discussion of women's rights.

Not since GB have I seen such reasoned and eloquent posts about things that matter. Targeting MN is bizarre and disgraceful. The insider was abusing her position and rightly admitted it and has taken a break from social media.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Plus One on Apr 23, 2018, 07:59:38 PM
I'm just going to talk about piss as I feel more of an expert of this than anything else. It's somewhat off topic but it is part of this move towards the disregard of women's feelings towards anything that has to do with gender - in particular keeping our gender as something real and not an imagined identity we should just get over.

I'm going for personal experience here rather than anything else.

Firstly, I think familial piss is rather more tolerable than a complete stranger's piss. I don't want to have to deal with anyone's piss generally, but I don't have the same reaction to my partner's piss as I do if I inadvertently sit on a sit some that a stranger's managed to spray on the seat. I don't like it when it's other women, but I particularly don't like it if it's men - it's a different level of disgust.

Secondly, having to stand a foot away from three men pissing whilst I waited for the single cubicle, in what passes for a lesbian bar but has decided to have non binary toilets, was pretty vile for me. One man turned to tell me not to be bothered because pissing is natural. Can't argue with that. But standing next to a man whilst he's pissing is most certainly not natural for me. Neither is talking to a man whilst he's holding his penis for that matter. I don't think it's much of a stretch to imagine many women felt uncomfortable with it, particularly in a bar supposedly for women, perhaps especially so.

It doesn't matter to me whether the man is straight, gay, somewhere in the middle of transitioning, or that holding their penis is not remotely sexual. I didn't feel comfortable with it. I never will. And it pisses me off that l was expected to be okay with that just because I'm part of the LBGTQI umbrella. A space, supposedly for me, as a women and person of differing sexuality, is now not for me, because even in the place I most want segregation, the wishes of people promoting a non-binary view have trumped mine.

It's a small thing that will be dismissed no doubt. But if this is the way the alphabet umbrella 'movement' is going, it's no longer a movement that is concerned about the L or the female Bs (i.e the women). After all, it is the L spaces that accommodate without question, we are the first port of call, the first places to say 'yes', the safest spaces to be in no matter who you are. And I get that, and that's fine, but when it starts to be at our expense, when the primary reason these places were created, i.e a safe space for lesbians and bisexual women, are forgotten or ignored because a 'woman' is no longer an indicator of anything important, I have an issue.

And that's just me in a gay bar, not a very risky place to be, not the most important place being a woman surrounded by women is better for women... not a public toilet, or a prison, or a rape crisis centre, or a safehouse for battered women... not anywhere where a predator might make an effort to have easy access to vulnerable people. Just a pub where being with other women was, I thought, the point of the place.

There are places where I want only women to be. I can't have legislation to protect every environment, but I damned well don't want legislation to make it easier for predators to be in them. So there needs to be discussion about this way beyond just "it'll be alright", nothing's happened here so nothing will there. Nothing happens until people report it happening. I haven't reported men wanking on trains in front of me but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Some people don't report stuff for years and then we all cry "How could that happen?".

It happens because we don't try hard enough to stop it happening, we just put past abuses down to the decade they were perpetrated in and conveniently think that somehow we're all more wise now. Paedophiles get jobs working with children, serial killers become Drs and nurses, abusers work in care homes for the elderly, rapists are everywhere. To just dismiss the concerns of women about problematic areas where being a woman is key to the safety of other women, and how to answer the question of "what is a woman?" is something it seems irresponsible to ignore.

Piss is the thin end of a wedge.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Apr 23, 2018, 08:01:30 PM
 Good post Plus One


But is anybody at government level actually considering repealing the gender recognition act?
 Also, what extra rights would self ID confer on a trans-person that arenít already covered by the gender recognition act, apart from cutting down on admin?

The information is in the link I supplied from the Peter Thatchell Foundation, here it is again:

http://www.petertatchellfoundation.org/gender-recognition-act-time-for-reform/ (http://www.petertatchellfoundation.org/gender-recognition-act-time-for-reform/)

Of course, no one in government is taking those fuckwits seriously but, like the BNP, they donít have to be taken seriously at a governmental level to cause harm. Dehumanising trans people by call them parasitic and putting their photos up on screen to be mocked, creates a hostile environment. We saw transphobic and Nazi graffiti in Cardiff, after their meeting. That leads to trans people feeling and being less safe. Weíve also seen examples of cis women being challenged in public loos for not looking Ďwoman enoughí.
But I was talking about the self ID thing, which wouldnít in fact curtail anybodyís existing rights.  People are allowed to debate and disagree with self definition.  There are people spouting all sorts of hateful nonsense on both sides but I was specifically talking about the law, and the proposed changes.
   
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Lyco on Apr 23, 2018, 08:28:10 PM
I think anyone saying that Mumsnet isnít transphobic is being dishonest.

Yes, thereís some newbies causing trouble but thereís also plenty of long standing posters starting threads and posting in threads. If you go to the feminism chat boards nearly every single single thread is about transwomen. And their traffic is huge, 20 or 30 active threads a day huge. But what bothers me is the constant use of phrases like TIM as opposed to transwomen, verbes like Ďtransingí and almost everyone saying that transwomen are men.

These posts are not taken down, they arenít moderated. They are part of the accepted vernacular on there. Anyone at odds with this type of language and opinion is blocked or edited. Literally hundreds of posts every day calling transwomen men, taking about genitals, calling transwomen TIM. This is the narrative on Mumsnet and it really saddens me to see it here.

I remember plenty of trans wars on here. Plenty of posts about transmen being men and therefore not being right for this space. Why on earth do we treat transwomen differently? It seems massively hypocritical to me. The same people (broadly, not GB specifically btw) who want transmen out of our spaces, also are crying biology and not letting transwomen in. We canít have it both ways and still claim to have principles.

And yes, there are complete arseholes on both sides. But I genuinely think that the contents of someone elseís pants is absolutely none of my business. Unless you are someones doctor or lover, they shouldnít be yours either.


Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 23, 2018, 08:42:34 PM
Good post Plus One


But is anybody at government level actually considering repealing the gender recognition act?
 Also, what extra rights would self ID confer on a trans-person that arenít already covered by the gender recognition act, apart from cutting down on admin?

The information is in the link I supplied from the Peter Thatchell Foundation, here it is again:

http://www.petertatchellfoundation.org/gender-recognition-act-time-for-reform/ (http://www.petertatchellfoundation.org/gender-recognition-act-time-for-reform/)

Of course, no one in government is taking those fuckwits seriously but, like the BNP, they donít have to be taken seriously at a governmental level to cause harm.
But I was talking about the self ID thing, which wouldnít in fact curtail anybodyís existing rights.  People are allowed to debate and disagree with self definition.  There are people spouting all sorts of hateful nonsense on both sides but I was specifically talking about the law, and the proposed changes.
 

Both Labour and Tory parties are committed to simplifying not repealing the gender recognition process so essentially they are just going down to those meetings all masked up for a ruck.

If you read the ďPeter Thatchell linkĒ youíll find its one of those "written for Facebook" pieces of click bait. Like the one saying ďWhy you should never eat a banana that looks like thisĒ and six pages in to it, you still have no idea why.

Its not actually written by Peter Tatchell and its headed :

ďSome feminists are critical of proposals to reform the UKís Gender Recognition Act. They are mistaken and their fears misplaced. This article by GIRES UK explains why.
Ē But it doesnít.

Who are Gires UK?

According to their website :

ďGires UK are UK wide organisation whose purpose is to improve the lives of trans and gender non-conforming people of all agesĒ

Do they have a constitutional purpose or responsibility to improve the lives of women? No, absolutely not.

What do they do? They monitor gender non-comformity and they sponsor scientific and human rights research based exclusively on trans people. No doubt enjoying the Government / LGBT charity consultations funding streams that have been opened up to focus on trans issues.

Do they monitor the quality of life of  women in the UK? No. Absolutely not.

Do they monitor the quality of life of  women in Ireland, Malta, Denmark, Belgium, Argentina, Mexico City or Argentina? No. Absolutely not.

So how does the article ďproveĒ that feminists are mistaken and their fears misplaced about the effect GRA will have on women? It doesn't.

There are very few sentences in the article which actually deal with the issue :

Gires UK says feminists think that ďthe current gender recognition process provides certain protections, such as preventing men behaving badly in womenís spaces which, in fact, it does notĒ

Does any feminist anywhere really think that a Gender Recognition Certificate stops men behaving badly in womensí space? No.

But once self declaration determines gender, women will not be able to challenge men in womensí spaces when they are claiming to be trans or not. They may even be penalised for challenging them as some sort of hate crime. How does this prove feminists are wrong to be concerned about the changes? Its meaningless.

They argue again that ďwith the advent of self-determination, rape crisis centres and refuges would become unsafe for women; and men dressed as women, intent on sexual assault would enter womenís lavatories, with the apparent protection of a GRC.Ē

Same argument as above. All they are saying is that a GRC wouldnít protect a woman against this. But self determination would make it more difficult to challenge men who are there on false pretences. In fact, there would be no way of challenging them because they could just claim to be women.
Then they argue we havenít noticed transgender women using the womenís loos already (really?) and they havenít caused us any problems. Well, self declaration will allow men as well as transwomen to use any hitherto female space they want and they canít be challenged. Itís the same argument with no resolution.

ďRape crisis centres and refuges have an obligation to ensure that those accepted into them are not perpetrators.Ē  How do they discharge that duty if a person can change their identity at will?Ē

ďÖbut these protections already exist in these facilities.Ē Protections which wonít be equipped to deal with abusive men who take advantage of there being no right to challenge their reasons for being there.

ďPrisons also, will continue to do risk assessments that take account of previous and instant offences against women when deciding whether or not a person assigned male at birth will be accommodated in the female estate.Ē Will they? Who says? Where is that guaranteed? Its complacent assumption not a fact.

ďThe risks associated with trans people and the loss of women only space isnít amplified by simplifying the process of transitioningĒ. Sure but the risks from abuse of self-definition, do.

It then lists a lot of information about how trans people are disadvantaged by the current system but it says nothing about how that impacts women. Its transcentric in its analysis throughout even though itís a piece supposed to be geared towards reassuring women.

Then we have the clincher. Based on 7 countries who have adopted simpler process which may look nothing like the one we end up with, ďthere is no evidence that society as we know it is headed for chaotic declineĒ. Because thatís what it would take for disadvantages to women to register with Gires UK or the Peter Tatchell Foundation. Two bodies of which have been known to say ďWe canít do that. What about its effect on lesbians? Precisely NO TIME EVER.

They then mis-characterise, as Ruth Hunt does, the changes as purely administrative. They are not. A switch from evidenced based to self determination as a basis for whether the law must treat you as Arthur or Martha is more than admin.

ďYet the evidence that we have, is that the dire outcomes predicted have not materialised in the growing number of countriesĒ (7 out of 195) where self-determination is in place.Ē

But where is the evidence? How did Gire UK measure it? They didnít. They simply concluded that in the absence of any obvious chaotic decline there mustnít have been any detrimental effect.

If you are still reading this there never is any answer given as to why you shouldnít eat that stupid banana.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: two monkeys on Apr 23, 2018, 08:44:07 PM
I've just had a quick read of that Peter Tatchell link. It's poorly written and obtuse and contains some inconsistencies which I can't be bothered to copy and paste.

In regards to assertion that there is no evidence of abuse of women by transwomen  therefore the fears being expressed are groundless I would argue that there is in fact ample evidence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAFcYTwn33A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAFcYTwn33A)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=348&v=uzwMJAFWLtQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=348&v=uzwMJAFWLtQ)

As we're all aware only a very small and very brave minority of women who've been raped, sexually abused or experienced domestic violence ever make reports. What percentage of those reports lead to charges and convictions I have no idea-quite small I imagine.

If 100 men were convicted of rape last year does that mean that only 100 women were raped?




Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on Apr 23, 2018, 08:47:44 PM
The key for transphobes is to keep trans lives debateable. Frame it as a debate and they can continue saying the most heinous shit imaginable. Then any attempt at consequences is met with accusations of "shutting down debate".

The truth is that trans people have been talking for decades ó most often in courts, which have no truck with dishonesty and cherry picking of evidence. The courts supported truth and justice.The opposition was heard and always found wanting. This current crowd are no different.

If these folks are so keen on ďdiscussionĒ then where were they in the 1980s when Mark Rees took his case to the European Court? Where were they in the 90ís when trans people won protection from discrimination in employment? Or 2004 with the GRA? They are the Ďfadí, not trans people.

Wanting to repeatedly go back over matters that were heard, considered and decided decades ago ó and with nothing new to say,  is not the pursuit of debate. Itís a form of harassment by a mob thinking they might be able to hoodwink a new generation and win this time. They wonít win but they cause harm.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on Apr 23, 2018, 09:03:52 PM
The reason women are suddenly speaking about this now is because they've started to realise the implications.
A couple of the things that anger me but more than that are concerning are how statistics will change after or if self id goes through.
Transwomen who commit violent crimes whilst living as men, and and by the time it comes to court start identifying as women then have their crimes recorded as crimes committed by women.
I simply don't believe that is fair or won't skew data and stats about crime and patterns of crime.

Also I am really angry that a woman at a local hospital here in London was called transphobic by numerous newspapers including Pink News because she refused a smear from a nurse who was a trans woman. The hospital apologised but she was pilloried for complaining.

Lyco, can you tell me why TIM is offensive as a descriptor?

 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on Apr 23, 2018, 09:07:10 PM
Just to add the woman had requested a female nurse for the smear. That is allowed but there was a mix up and the trans woman nurse arrived and the patient apologised but said she had asked for a female nurse, the nurse said she identified as a woman but the patient declined the smear.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: two monkeys on Apr 23, 2018, 09:12:53 PM
The key for transphobes is to keep trans lives debateable. Frame it as a debate and they can continue saying the most heinous shit imaginable. Then any attempt at consequences is met with accusations of "shutting down debate".

The truth is that trans people have been talking for decades ó most often in courts, which have no truck with dishonesty and cherry picking of evidence. The courts supported truth and justice.The opposition was heard and always found wanting. This current crowd are no different.

If these folks are so keen on ďdiscussionĒ then where were they in the 1980s when Mark Rees took his case to the European Court? Where were they in the 90ís when trans people won protection from discrimination in employment? Or 2004 with the GRA? They are the Ďfadí, not trans people.

Wanting to repeatedly go back over matters that were heard, considered and decided decades ago ó and with nothing new to say,  is not the pursuit of debate. Itís a form of harassment by a mob thinking they might be able to hoodwink a new generation and win this time. They wonít win but they cause harm.


Jesus, you have taken disingenuous to a new level.

" most often in courts, which have no truck with dishonesty and cherry picking of evidence. The courts supported truth and justice"

Really? I mean, do you truly believe that?

There has been no genuine debate. A debate would imply that both sides had a chance to express their concerns and were respectfully listened to.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 23, 2018, 09:21:15 PM
Yep, its another variation on the slur that we're only feminists or pretending to be concerned about women because we enjoy making trans people's lives difficult.

Nothwithstanding that some trans people think the same as us, we couldn't possibly be concerned about women just because women are worth our concern.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Lyco on Apr 23, 2018, 09:48:59 PM
Lyco, can you tell me why TIM is offensive as a descriptor?

Well, the main premise of it is that transwomen are men. Trans Identified Male. It would be the same as someone calling you a female oriented heterosexual. Or something similar.  So someone who was opposed to your sexuality would simply dismiss it and describe you in their frame of reference.

Just on Gires. Terry and Bernard Reed are possibly two of the most unlikely, on the face of it, LGBT allies you could meet. They are both academics having met in Oxford during the 50s. Terry has more letters after her name than I have in my address. If you met Bernard on the street you would think him a nice, avuncular gentle pensioner. They set up Gires when their daughter was sacked for transitioning in the 90s and they helped her fight her case. Their love for, and acceptances of their daughter is an astonishing thing. And even the most hardened of you would possibly be moved by it. These two people have dedicated their life to improving outcomes for transpeople backed up by research and evidence.

Terry is particularly well regarded within the medical profession and sits on the NHS England CRG. GIRES stands for Gender Identity Research and Education Society. The clue there is in the name. Research. I make all these points because there is an idea that a lot of trans groups are peddling in anecdotal or inaccurate fake news non facts. That isnít the case here. If GIRES are saying something, itís worth reading.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 23, 2018, 10:07:19 PM
Gires do research on trans people to help trans people. No research on women.

However cuddly.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: two monkeys on Apr 23, 2018, 10:17:47 PM
Here's an example of their research..

http://home.netcom.com/~docx2/AGF.htm (http://home.netcom.com/~docx2/AGF.htm)

So many things wrong with this I can't even  ::)
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on Apr 23, 2018, 11:00:52 PM
I think another reason lots of people have only just started talking about self id and gender recognition is because the subject appeared on the radar precisely because women were being no platformed in universities.. That made headlines and then people found out that possibly their women's status rights were at stake.

This article about Linda Bellos being no platformed sets out the terrain very well.

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/06/feminist-linda-bellos-women-trans-male-violence?CMP=share_btn_tw&__twitter_impression=true

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: PushingThru on Apr 25, 2018, 01:29:14 AM
Two things I've noticed:

1. Why do controversies only seems to involve MtF. To my (very scant) knowledge FtM doesn't seem to cause the same problems. (why is that?)

2. Noone ever seems to talk about how the experience of being raised and socialised as a female (regardless of XY/XX chromosomes, biology etc), differs from being raised and socialised as a male and transitioning later in life. And vice versa. (why is that?)
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 25, 2018, 11:56:34 AM
Two things I've noticed:

1. Why do controversies only seems to involve MtF. To my (very scant) knowledge FtM doesn't seem to cause the same problems. (why is that?)

2. Noone ever seems to talk about how the experience of being raised and socialised as a female (regardless of XY/XX chromosomes, biology etc), differs from being raised and socialised as a male and transitioning later in life. And vice versa. (why is that?)

I suppose it depends who is talking about it in what context, especially regarding number 2. I imagine it might be talked about a lot in Ftm circles but I'm guessing. I think a lot turns on what is meant by "being raised and socialised as a female" - whether that means Shirley Templesque performing the stereotype of femininity or it means, as raised as a girl with a consciousness of how that interacted with our biological sex. For instance, my brother was allowed to camp out in the fields half a mile away. I wasn't because it wasn't regarded as "safe" for a girl to do that because of the risk of sexual predators. A lot of socialising rules around being a girl are connected with biology - either ours or how biological males conventionally might have interacted with ours.

In respect of FTM's there is controversy sometimes - in relation to whether or not its appropriate for them to remain in space allocated for women if they want to, for instance transitioned female to male college student refused to give up what was very limited bed space in a womens' college because he didn't feel safe in the wider world. His girlfriend argued vociferously that it was every feminists duty to protect anyone at risk of male violence and therefore he should keep the space which was meant for a woman. Others disagreed for obvious reasons of "can't have your cake and eat it" and what are very limited resources for women which are set aside to correct institutionalised sexism shouldn't be being used resourcing both male to female and female to male trans people.

Also in the context of the GRA, men are obviously not concerned to the point of protest about the prospect of women fraudulently attempting to pass themselves off as men, sneaking into places where they feel vulnerable and sexually assaulting them. That is probably because sexual violence is predominantly although not exclusively committed by men.

Then you get some quite wacky internet debates about "stealth" especially from the USA. Example - real case of US trans man convicted of sexual assault of a female on the basis that they developed a relationship over the internet, he didn't disclose his transness. They eventually had sex. He used something replicating a penis but which wasn't a biological penis. Her consent to sex was deemed to be vitiated by fraud and he was convicted. Trans posters than argue about whether they should have to disclose. Some say yes. Some argue that the victim is transphobic and ought to be penalised for that because she is not accepting his maleness and "she wanted a man and she got a man".

But I guess people talk about what they are most concerned about and different groups are often more effected by and concerned about some issues rather than others.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Apr 25, 2018, 12:10:01 PM
 If you listen to people like Riley J Dennis there is no difference, and male privilege isnít actually a thing.
 There seems to be a deliberate tactic amongst some Prominent trans-activists to ignore certain widely excepted truths, and deliberately conflate,  miss represent or change the meaning of language for  other things. For example, they conflate  sexual preference with sexual orientation, and randomly interchange sex and gender as if they were the same thing. For people who claim to be as right on and clued up as they are, I canít for one minute believe that this is anything other than a cynical attempt to mislead.
 They also do the victimising while claiming victimisation trick. Riley J Dennis says that if lesbians really really try, we can learn to be attracted to women who have penises, and if we donít we have implicit bias and weíre being cis sexist. Iíve heard that you can learn to like penises argument before, and every single time it has been homophobic.  To your first point, Iím not seeing any condemnation of gay men for not loving fanny.
 In short its misogyny, and as an extension to that, homophobia. Plain and simple.           
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 25, 2018, 01:04:16 PM
If you listen to people like Riley J Dennis there is no difference, and male privilege isnít actually a thing.
 There seems to be a deliberate tactic amongst some Prominent trans-activists to ignore certain widely excepted truths, and deliberately conflate,  miss represent or change the meaning of language for  other things. For example, they conflate  sexual preference with sexual orientation, and randomly interchange sex and gender as if they were the same thing. For people who claim to be as right on and clued up as they are, I canít for one minute believe that this is anything other than a cynical attempt to mislead.
 They also do the victimising while claiming victimisation trick. Riley J Dennis says that if lesbians really really try, we can learn to be attracted to women who have penises, and if we donít we have implicit bias and weíre being cis sexist. Iíve heard that you can learn to like penises argument before, and every single time it has been homophobic.  To your first point, Iím not seeing any condemnation of gay men for not loving fanny.
 In short its misogyny, and as an extension to that, homophobia. Plain and simple.         

Yes. It doesn't acknowledge that sole female attraction to females is genuine and that is homophobic.

Its the ideological love-child of the myth that "we're all bisexual really" and sexual entitlement thinking.

The latter is on the rise with the Incel ("involuntary celebacy") movement which was apparently behind the Toronto terrorist attacks. The Incel movement is based on the premise that men need sex and they think women as a class have a duty to provide them with it. If they don't they entitled to revenge attack them. So men and boys who can't get sexual partners are bonding together to "punish" women for "rejecting them". "Rejecting them" can amount to sleeping with someone who isn't them or just not sleeping with anyone at all.

The idea that our sexual choices are our own needs fighting for all over again.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Plus One on Apr 25, 2018, 01:17:23 PM
Two things I've noticed:

1. Why do controversies only seems to involve MtF. To my (very scant) knowledge FtM doesn't seem to cause the same problems. (why is that?)

2. Noone ever seems to talk about how the experience of being raised and socialised as a female (regardless of XY/XX chromosomes, biology etc), differs from being raised and socialised as a male and transitioning later in life. And vice versa. (why is that?)

I think you've answered your own question with another. 1 is because of 2.



Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Apr 25, 2018, 02:07:57 PM
If you listen to people like Riley J Dennis there is no difference, and male privilege isnít actually a thing.
 There seems to be a deliberate tactic amongst some Prominent trans-activists to ignore certain widely excepted truths, and deliberately conflate,  miss represent or change the meaning of language for  other things. For example, they conflate  sexual preference with sexual orientation, and randomly interchange sex and gender as if they were the same thing. For people who claim to be as right on and clued up as they are, I canít for one minute believe that this is anything other than a cynical attempt to mislead.
 They also do the victimising while claiming victimisation trick. Riley J Dennis says that if lesbians really really try, we can learn to be attracted to women who have penises, and if we donít we have implicit bias and weíre being cis sexist. Iíve heard that you can learn to like penises argument before, and every single time it has been homophobic.  To your first point, Iím not seeing any condemnation of gay men for not loving fanny.
 In short its misogyny, and as an extension to that, homophobia. Plain and simple.         

Yes. It doesn't acknowledge that sole female attraction to females is genuine and that is homophobic.

Its the ideological love-child of the myth that "we're all bisexual really" and sexual entitlement thinking.

The latter is on the rise with the Incel ("involuntary celebacy") movement which was apparently behind the Toronto terrorist attacks. The Incel movement is based on the premise that men need sex and they think women as a class have a duty to provide them with it. If they don't they entitled to revenge attack them. So men and boys who can't get sexual partners are bonding together to "punish" women for "rejecting them". "Rejecting them" can amount to sleeping with someone who isn't them or just not sleeping with anyone at all.

The idea that our sexual choices are our own needs fighting for all over again.


I was also somewhat confused and dismayed to read that third wave feminism is not actually woman centred, and is in fact a movement to fight all oppression against all people.  Does this mean that as vagina owning, female presenting people, we have to go and find a sad rejected man and sleep with him? Honestly, what a load of shit.  Actually spending some time online looking at this stuff is quite frightening. So much manipulation and doublethink, and being normalised on such platforms as EveryDay Sexism. It does make one feel like women are under attack.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Plus One on Apr 25, 2018, 02:30:38 PM
Two things I've noticed:

1. Why do controversies only seems to involve MtF. To my (very scant) knowledge FtM doesn't seem to cause the same problems. (why is that?)

2. Noone ever seems to talk about how the experience of being raised and socialised as a female (regardless of XY/XX chromosomes, biology etc), differs from being raised and socialised as a male and transitioning later in life. And vice versa. (why is that?)

I think you've answered your own question with another. 1 is because of 2.


Just to add a point about question 1.

For the vast majority of men, manhood = penis. No penis, no man.
Any group of F2Ms would be simply laughed at or kicked out of any arena where they tried to impose the kind of nonsense these radical transactivists are trying to impose on women. It just wouldn't fly. Not even in the gay man's world. F2Ms know this. Any privilege they have comes as a consequence of transitioning not a default attitude towards the world.

But in the nice, safe, acquiescing, lesbian world... we're told to comply, change, accommodate, and we do...even the straight women will rail against this sort of stuff (see Mumsnet for details)... but we're sooooooo progressive and accepting, and doormatty, that a man with a penis who has no intention of chopping it off can tell us he IDs as woman ....and we say "Welcome Sandra, there's no question that you are indeed one of us!!"    Erm.. Duh!!!

The men in the gay world are not being asked to change their identities, no-one is questioning their maleness, their spaces are not devolving into something else, no-one telling them they shouldn't talk about their balls or erectile dysfunction, they are the least affected. They are either blissfully unaware or they simply don't care because of the joys of privilege, just ignore it... of the men in the LGBT world who are directing the movement... they are fighting on behalf of "default" men, people whose concerns they will listen to (unlike the lip service they pay women). They get to glory in how they are fighting prejudice without having any consequences that bother them.

There will be a backlash eventually, and those affected by that will be the genuine transpeople. These extreme transactivists are not helping anyone they claim to be, they are even trying to shut up any transpeople who want to speak out against their views.

(I was told about Incel last night.. it was started by a woman apparently.)

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Apr 25, 2018, 03:11:10 PM
 Indeed, and coercing, bullying,   manipulating and blackmailing  women into having sex that they donít want is  oppressive.  The idea that a lesbian who doesnít want to sleep with someone who has a penis is trans-phobic, is emotional blackmail. Yes you can choose to sleep with whoever you like, but if you choose not to sleep with me youíre a bigot, and an oppressor. Really? Because that argument sounds pretty oppressive to me.  I always thought that most of the oppression related to sexual intercourse was created by sex through force and coercion. This brings me onto my next bugbear, which really makes me angry. I keep seeing and hearing rape culture being used as a stick to beat women. We arenít allowed to have concerns about being raped or sexually assaulted because itís trans-phobic.  This is possibly the most vile piece of manipulation Iíve ever come across. Here it is again, letís make the victim the victimiser.
 The theme throughout, letís invalidate womenís experiences, deny their biology, deny their right to sexual freedom, silence their voices and hijack discourse in order to centre it on our own sexual and moral entitlement.
 And these people actually think they are helping the trans-community?         
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 25, 2018, 05:03:30 PM
Yep, the "trans rights are human rights" slogan basically boils down to one thing, (given that trans people have all the rights and protections that everyone else has and no one is arguing that they shouldn't have them) -

If they want a place to pee and undress in that is appropriate to their gender, that's a human right
If we want a place to pee and undress in that is appropriate for our sex, that's a selfish demand

Please explain this in any terms other than women are not valued and don't adequately value ourselves, that you can think of.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Apr 25, 2018, 05:41:25 PM
^ without using the terms sex and gender incorrectly, interchangeably, inconsistently, or pretending they are the same.
 We see you. 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Trifle on Apr 25, 2018, 07:54:21 PM
Itís all very worrying.

There are women who have been sexually assaulted who physically canít be in the same room as trans women because they still trigger a panic attack as a man would. And their feelings arenít even considered important.

What I donít understand is that Iím being asked to negate a biological fact. It is a biological fact that trans people were born as a certain sex. It is also a fact that even after transitioning they will still be someone who was born as a certain sex, and that is what makes a trans woman different to me.   Yet iím being asked to deny that and it feels like insanity. A trans woman I spoke with the other day agreed with me but, as has been said,  the voices of the more sane and reasonable trans people just donít get heard.

Men murder several women a week in the U.K. And itís considered unreasonable, and transphobic,  that women question whether someone who was born of the male sex should be given automatic access to womenís safe spaces. Iím just speechless with it all really.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on Apr 25, 2018, 08:12:55 PM
If you listen to people like Riley J Dennis there is no difference, and male privilege isnít actually a thing.
 There seems to be a deliberate tactic amongst some Prominent trans-activists to ignore certain widely excepted truths, and deliberately conflate,  miss represent or change the meaning of language for  other things. For example, they conflate  sexual preference with sexual orientation, and randomly interchange sex and gender as if they were the same thing. For people who claim to be as right on and clued up as they are, I canít for one minute believe that this is anything other than a cynical attempt to mislead.
 They also do the victimising while claiming victimisation trick. Riley J Dennis says that if lesbians really really try, we can learn to be attracted to women who have penises, and if we donít we have implicit bias and weíre being cis sexist. Iíve heard that you can learn to like penises argument before, and every single time it has been homophobic.  To your first point, Iím not seeing any condemnation of gay men for not loving fanny.
 In short its misogyny, and as an extension to that, homophobia. Plain and simple.         

Yes. It doesn't acknowledge that sole female attraction to females is genuine and that is homophobic.

Its the ideological love-child of the myth that "we're all bisexual really" and sexual entitlement thinking.

The latter is on the rise with the Incel ("involuntary celebacy") movement which was apparently behind the Toronto terrorist attacks. The Incel movement is based on the premise that men need sex and they think women as a class have a duty to provide them with it. If they don't they entitled to revenge attack them. So men and boys who can't get sexual partners are bonding together to "punish" women for "rejecting them". "Rejecting them" can amount to sleeping with someone who isn't them or just not sleeping with anyone at all.

The idea that our sexual choices are our own needs fighting for all over again.


I was also somewhat confused and dismayed to read that third wave feminism is not actually woman centred, and is in fact a movement to fight all oppression against all people.  Does this mean that as vagina owning, female presenting people, we have to go and find a sad rejected man and sleep with him? Honestly, what a load of shit.  Actually spending some time online looking at this stuff is quite frightening. So much manipulation and doublethink, and being normalised on such platforms as EveryDay Sexism. It does make one feel like women are under attack.

It's because we are.
Everyday feminism now actually pushes Riley Davis homophobia wrapped up as relearning our preferences.

A couple of evenings on the Internet looking at this stuff will bring most people to your conclusion. We are fighting for our boundaries all over again.

In Canada teachers, primary teachers have been instructed to read a book to their classes by Laverne Cox. The first paragraph states that we girl brains and boy brains.
This is not even proven Science. And it's fucking brainwashing of children.
To be honest the impact on children is a whole other thread and the reason Mumsnet were on to the trans issue years before most of us caught up. Women have been asleep.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Apr 25, 2018, 11:21:41 PM
 This is unreal, such bullshit and lies and hate.
https://youtu.be/rnQbgShb6r8 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: hellohowareyoutoday on Apr 25, 2018, 11:33:38 PM
Are you agreeing or disagreeing with Blaire White's sentiments? Do you really see Blaire White as nothing more than a man in women's clothing?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: hellohowareyoutoday on Apr 25, 2018, 11:34:36 PM
P.S. whatever gender you ascribe them, Blaire White's an ultra conservative Trump supporter, notorious for various bigoted views.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Apr 26, 2018, 12:12:00 AM
 I disagree, and I see Blaire white as a pedlar of hate and lies, obviously.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 26, 2018, 12:35:15 AM
Looks like another one with the narcissistic co-morbidity for sure.

The ďabsolutely convinced iím right about everything even when Iím saying totally crazy stuff for which there is no factual foundationĒ. All delivered at high speed, managing to offend everyone else whilst asserting her particular uniqueness. Can you imagine her and Riley J Dennis locked in one room together?

She tweeted today ďThere is a distinct place in hell for women who falsely accuse men of rape.Ē

Someone tweeted back ďThere is a distinct  place in hell for women who donít suppport their sisters.Ē
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: hellohowareyoutoday on Apr 26, 2018, 01:05:07 AM
I think trans people are great and valid members of society and should have their chosen identities respected to the fullest extent. Choosing not to date a trans person is perfectly reasonable too. I haven't seen any widespread movement forcing anyone to date someone outside their preferences. This might be more of an idea within a niche SJW tumblr-type milieu where people use the clapping emoji between words. There are definitely more radical trans ideas out there, e.g. "Trans people have no obligation to tell their love interests they are trans - ever" or "Cishet scum, do not talk to me", but it's certainly not the norm just yet. I think a lot of trans people are 'normal', and just want to live peacefully in a more authentic identity without malicious intentions.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Trifle on Apr 26, 2018, 08:34:06 AM
^ Iím sure a lot of them donít have malicious intent because they are people just like the rest of us. So some will have malicious intent and some wonít. A pertinent issue I see is that as trans women are born of the male sex, a sex that kills and sexually assaults women every week, I want to see some consideration for that if the prospect of them being given open access to womenís safe spaces is on the table. It doesnít matter if a lot donít have malicious intent - laws are there to protect us from the ones who do. Itís like the old argument that not all men are rapists. Thatís not the point because there are still a lot who are that women need protecting from.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Lust for Life on Apr 26, 2018, 08:39:05 AM
^^ (hhayt) Your first line spells out to me what the problem is. The current debate is so polarising and we are being asked to make blanket decisions about all trans people, and in turn any attempt to discuss the nuances, the potential fallout, gets us lumped together as one group of haters.

The reality is of course that most of us have no problem at all with people who 'just want to live peacefully in a more authentic identity without malicious intentions'. I have yet to personally meet a trans person whom I dislike, but there are clearly transpeople contributing to this debate (not on GB, I mean in a wider context) who I would not like to be stuck in a lift with.

And you know what, through no fault of my own, I was born in the wrong country. In order to get paperwork which more closely matched how and where I choose to live, I had to live in that country for several years, then fill in long and complicated forms declaring my intention to live in my new nationality, and wait several months for an official body to review and approve my claim. There were also significant costs involved. When my papers came through I applied for a new ID card with my new nationality on it immediately, and celebrated with family and friends.


I know it is not the same, in the sense that the level of shame or embarrassment is perhaps different, but I do know that saying 'I am in the process of getting a new passport' is a step towards being able to say, 'I belong here, it's on my papers'.


So, I am very glad that GRCs exist, but do not agree that it is terrible that the application process exists, or that a government body gets to decide who to give one to. Genuine cases will never be denied. Appeals processes exist for if someone fills in the form badly.

And, to continue the analogy, I currently have dual (actually triple) nationality. There are some places, however, where my original nationality remains binding. For example, I cannot ask the embassy of my new nationality to help get me out of the original country, and if I want to actually get involved in government as a politician, I may be required to take further steps to distance myself from my nationality of birth. This has nothing to do with my personal feelings or intentions and everything to do with how the outside world might perceive me, based on my background.

In the same way, it seems reasonable to deny transpeople the 'right' to work in, for example, women's refuges. Again, this is to do with how the outside world (namely the vulnerable women in the refuge) might perceive the transgender person, not about them personally.



Edited for typos.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 26, 2018, 09:35:17 AM
Good post, LFL. Very valid points.

I was thinking about GRC's and I remember them being discussed in different terms nearer to the time they were issued. I remembered that some trans people felt reassured by the fact that there was some substance to someone's transition and it wasn't done "willy-nilly" for want of a better expression. It wasn't a transient fashion statement or some trivial appropriation of someone else's life struggle.

You don't have to go far on social media to find examples of trans people questioning the authenticity of other people who identify as trans as to whether they are actually trans or not. Which shows the pure self-definition route doesn't necessarily work for trans people either and its perfectly possible that this debate is about the limits of self-definition and not hatred or desired discrimination.

I found this post by Marylin which is not dissimilar at all to what a lot of women say here or are saying in those meetings. Yet if they say it they are shouted down as transphobic or terfs. This is a trans woman in 2009 saying much the same thing if not requiring more be demonstrated before a GRC be issued. Why aren't trans people who feel like this being acknowledged as part of this debate? Why isn't it being recognised, for instance, that it was anti-feminist men leading the chants to silence women on this issue outside the womens' meeting in Oxford whilst claiming to be speaking for trans people who don't even agree with them?

Transwomen are being used as trojan horses here for men to kill off feminism and to discredit the status "feminist" generally. Because feminism asks uncomfortable questions about power relationships that they don't want to have to deal with.

reading this thread with interest...

this whole story has got me pretty confused. while i would stand by the right of a person to be any gender they so wish, i am uncomfortable with the idea of a convicted rapist who, despite identifying as a woman, has a penis, being transferred to a women's prison. i wonder what the female inmates would feel about having a rapist in their midst?

i am also surprised that you can get gender re-assignment surgery whilst serving time, although as someone else pointed out as this could be a long sentence it is possible that it is absolutely essential to this person's survival.

However, this case raises a very valid point on the contentious issue of at what point is it appropriate to approve a Gender Recognition Certificate for a transsexual woman.   By itís very nature transsexualism involves Ďtransitioní to help make a trans person be able to neatly fit into the box they feel they belong to, either female or male.   As far as the law is concerned it only recognises those two sexes and each one has itís own full set of responsibilities and protections associated with it.   Therefore, the question is at what point should the full weight of the law be thrown behind going from recognising a person legally as having all the appropriate protection of one sex to then flicking the switch to recognise them as the opposite sex.

This case highlights the fact that some trans women who have the ability to undergo sex reassignment surgery are being granted GRCís without having done so.   My own personal view is that, when it comes to transwomen, the idea of a trans woman being completely recognised in law in every respect without having undergone sex reassignment surgery is one that makes me very uncomfortable except where a suitably qualified doctor agrees that there is a significant medical reason beyond someoneís control why it isnít possible to perform the operation.   Iím not making any comment about transmen because the issue for them is very different as the surgical procedures are far more complex and risky.

I do know a trans woman who is in this position.   She is severely disabled and has a number of serious health issues so her doctors will never approve the operation for her because it would pose too high a risk to put her under anaesthetic and perform major surgery on her.   She transitioned over 10 years ago and 2 years ago she was granted a GRC and a new birth certificate which I felt, in her case, was the right decision.   However, in my own case I satisfied the legal criteria to get a GRC well before I had surgery but chose not to apply until the operation had been done because I didnít feel it was right.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Apr 26, 2018, 10:04:33 AM
 I canít comment on the operative status thing because I donít know enough about it, but I can completely understand that one might feel that they should prove their right to be granted a GRC. Playing devilĎs advocate here, and I know everybody hates a devils advocate, but what if we do move to a system of self-definition, and some of the scenarios people have been concerned about come true? Wouldnít that invalidate and diminish the status of trans-women who have gone through the current process? Checks and balances lend credibility, and a system that is open to be abused reflects negatively on those who are genuine, rather like lazy scrounger rhetoric has stigmatised all benefit claimants.
 I know itís one of these down the track might happen things, but if Iíd spent a lot of time and effort achieving the body and status that made me feel more authentic, and trying to break down prejudices along the way,  I might reasonably be concerned.         

 Edited to change an incorrect word
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: [...] on Apr 26, 2018, 12:06:06 PM
If nationality is taken to be an approximate analogy for gender reassignment, and implementing a lengthy application process is regarded as a sensible approach, does that mean that May's creation of a "hostile environment" within the Home Office is regarded equally positively? If it isn't and instead the system she set up is seen as punitive and discriminatory, then why the difference?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 26, 2018, 12:29:46 PM
If nationality is taken to be an approximate analogy for gender reassignment, and implementing a lengthy application process is regarded as a sensible approach, does that mean that May's creation of a "hostile environment" within the Home Office is regarded equally positively? If it isn't and instead the system she set up is seen as punitive and discriminatory, then why the difference?

Well, you answer the question yourself. Do you think people should be able to simply choose a country and by self-identification be entitled to be a citizen of that country with all its benefits and legal rights without any further bureaucracy? "I declare myself a citizen of Sweden therefore I am entitled to all the benefits of being a Swedish citizen free of charge just because I say I am. Book me in for a free operation on my ingrowing toenail and sort my housing out". The fact that I have never been to Sweden and have no connection to it whatsover is irrelevant if only self-identification matters. Its loopy.

There are degrees of regulation. Just because the current system of GRC is considered too cumbersome it doesn't follow that you have to completely get rid of it and replace it with self-declaration. It can be simplified whilst still requiring a level of objective assessment. I doubt any genuine applicant has ever been refused one, unlike the Nationality system which is being run with an entirely different agenda but its ridiculous to suggest it should be scrapped and people should merely self ID.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Apr 26, 2018, 12:52:08 PM
^^ That is a strawman.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 26, 2018, 01:11:08 PM
Yeah but it does helpfully show the limits of self-id in both cases and the potential for abuse.

Why do we have passports and why do we have male or female on them, after all?

Passports are to show which legal jurisdiction for travel we come under so we have different privileges in different countries based on what passports we hold.

The "M" or "F" on the passport always specifically donated sex not gender because it was for confirmation of identification.

If the plane crashes into a mountain, they want to be looking for 17 biological males or 16 females not 12 non binary genderqueers, six a-genders and a merman.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: [...] on Apr 26, 2018, 01:15:43 PM
I'm opposed to nation states, national borders and bureaucratic systems for establishing nationality as well as bureaucratic systems to establish gender identification. Governments implement many 'light touch' systems to promote various industries. Similarly, there are 'light touch' approaches for the movement of capital or the establishment of head offices in countries with 'light touch' tax regimes. We accept all these 'light touches' and are 'surprised' when businesses make full use of the laws that privilege their interests. We, as a society, think that to some degree bureaucracy is an onerous burden for 'getting things done' and to some degree this burden should be reduced. If that laissez faire approach is the accepted norm for one aspect of how a society governs itself, then it should logically follow that people, and their decisions for how to live their lives, should be treated no differently. I'd accept a strict serious of hoops for people to jump through provided there were a similar series of strict hoops for industry but as there isn't, then yes, I do think that if you or I decided we were Swedish, without having any previous connection to Sweden, then we should be allowed to claim Swedish nationality.

Re finding people after a plane crash: they'd be looking for people, not cats or dogs. That's all they'd need to know.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 26, 2018, 01:31:56 PM
I'm opposed to nation states, national borders and bureaucratic systems for establishing nationality as well as bureaucratic systems to establish gender identification. Governments implement many 'light touch' systems to promote various industries. Similarly, there are 'light touch' approaches for the movement of capital or the establishment of head offices in countries with 'light touch' tax regimes. We accept all these 'light touches' and are 'surprised' when businesses make full use of the laws that privilege their interests. We, as a society, think that to some degree bureaucracy is an onerous burden for 'getting things done' and to some degree this burden should be reduced. If that laissez faire approach is the accepted norm for one aspect of how a society governs itself, then it should logically follow that people, and their decisions for how to live their lives, should be treated no differently. I'd accept a strict serious of hoops for people to jump through provided there were a similar series of strict hoops for industry but as there isn't, then yes, I do think that if you or I decided we were Swedish, without having any previous connection to Sweden, then we should be allowed to claim Swedish nationality.

Re finding people after a plane crash: they'd be looking for people, not cats or dogs. That's all they'd need to know.

Well, I think the people of Sweden are more entitled to a view than we are on who can acquire their nationality but they have been discounted by you in consideration of what happens to their country as much as women have been discounted in the GRA discussions and that's telling.

Btw, that idea to me is as mad as a bottle of frogs, my friend but I'm reluctant to further sideline the main issue on Alice in Wonderland type rabbit holes as the topic lends itself enough to that already.

Oh and the relatives of the people in the plane won't be reassured to hear 32 people of indiscriminate identity have been found. 16 alive and 16 dead. We are not sure which ones are yours. We didn't look for identifiers. We reassured ourselves that they are people not cats and dogs and that's all that matters.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Apr 26, 2018, 01:57:16 PM
Re plane crash: I see where youíre coming from, but is it not the case that not all people who have obtained a GRC have also had the full extent of reassignment surgery?  In which case the M or F on a passport would be meaningless.
 
 This is my understanding but I havenít looked it up, so I could be wrong.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 26, 2018, 02:02:18 PM
Re plane crash: I see where youíre coming from, but is it not the case that not all people who have obtained a GRC have also had the full extent of reassignment surgery?  In which case the M or F on a passport would be meaningless.

Well, not meaningless because in most cases it would be relevant and accurate. But yes, flawed by that. Having gender on the passport would be relatively meaningless especially since it includes non binary identities.

Like Womens' Officer and All Women Shortlists, passports have become wrongly regarded by transctivisits as validators of their gender rather than as being for the purpose they came into existence.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: [...] on Apr 26, 2018, 04:09:54 PM
I'm opposed to nation states, national borders and bureaucratic systems for establishing nationality as well as bureaucratic systems to establish gender identification. Governments implement many 'light touch' systems to promote various industries. Similarly, there are 'light touch' approaches for the movement of capital or the establishment of head offices in countries with 'light touch' tax regimes. We accept all these 'light touches' and are 'surprised' when businesses make full use of the laws that privilege their interests. We, as a society, think that to some degree bureaucracy is an onerous burden for 'getting things done' and to some degree this burden should be reduced. If that laissez faire approach is the accepted norm for one aspect of how a society governs itself, then it should logically follow that people, and their decisions for how to live their lives, should be treated no differently. I'd accept a strict serious of hoops for people to jump through provided there were a similar series of strict hoops for industry but as there isn't, then yes, I do think that if you or I decided we were Swedish, without having any previous connection to Sweden, then we should be allowed to claim Swedish nationality.

Re finding people after a plane crash: they'd be looking for people, not cats or dogs. That's all they'd need to know.

Well, I think the people of Sweden are more entitled to a view than we are on who can acquire their nationality but they have been discounted by you in consideration of what happens to their country as much as women have been discounted in the GRA discussions and that's telling.

Btw, that idea to me is as mad as a bottle of frogs, my friend but I'm reluctant to further sideline the main issue on Alice in Wonderland type rabbit holes as the topic lends itself enough to that already.

Oh and the relatives of the people in the plane won't be reassured to hear 32 people of indiscriminate identity have been found. 16 alive and 16 dead. We are not sure which ones are yours. We didn't look for identifiers. We reassured ourselves that they are people not cats and dogs and that's all that matters.

A little less of the Alice in Wonderland remarks would be appreciated.

There's a reason you and I think so differently about nationality. In contrast, I assume to you, I have spent my entire life being asked by white people in England where I am from. I doubt you have had your nationality questioned on such a regular basis, or so frequently with an implied question of entitlement to be here. There is some justification to the questions. My origins in this country are based on my family's accidental arrival in this country after being lied to about the ships' destination and the effect of bombing in the East End. I grew up with a background refrain of the importance of having the right papers to leave. I'd guess that certainly in my generation, there are fewer UK Jews who ever let their passport lapse than in other communities. I also think that my family will never recover from arbitrary disruption caused by requirement to register with the police, refusal of visas for political reasons and quotas imposed by the British. There are gaps everywhere and a very wide geographic scattering. You know those questions like "is there a history of diabetes in your family?" I can't answer that question clearly, and others I expect that I can't bring to mind but I know when I immediately think a complicated tale is not what's expected. People who can say things like "one of my forefathers was imprisoned in the Tower of London" I used to find (still do really) surprisingly exotic and that complacency and assumption that the way things are is more or less for the best, that the British have if they have a long British history, I have always liked, and wanted to get a bit closer to, to try to hang out with those sorts of people, as if their easy going relationship with authority would rub off on me. (It counts as a sexual taste as far as I'm concerned. Do you want to take all your own anxieties to bed in the form of another equally anxious person or try relaxing for a change with someone who doesn't have a passport and border obsession and can answer a question from the police with perfect equanimity. In the main, my long term relationships have been with people who share my automatic suspicions. There should be an RN for Reasonably Neurotic in the alphabet soup of LGBTQ).

Recently, I'm having to deal with a heightened questioning of whether I am really English (quite aside from having a perfectly identifiable Essex accent), every time I teach an English lesson to immigrants. To get in the building, I usually have to press the buzzer for someone on the ground floor to open the door. They open the door and tell me where I can find the EEENG-LIIISSSH lesson. They have been doing this for nearly five months. I know they mean it kindly. I know they can't remember one foreign looking person from another, I know they are not trying to make me feel like a fvcking alien or test my patience every single damned time. I know that when I say thank you, and good morning, or what nice weather, or some other thing, they do not hear that I am as English as them. To compound the problem I now have a noticeable tan from last weekend which is only going to get darker and hanging around with the black Africans seems to equal double trouble. It provokes a range of unreportable chilliness, a begrudging unwillingness, an assumption that whatever it is we say (asking to borrow a stapler in the Post Office) is going to be difficult. It's the 2018 version of being sacked from a Saturday job for being 'one of those people' which when I was 14, I didn't understand and had to ask for it to be spelled out.

So, that's the long form for why I am opposed to nation states. When nationality is used as analogous to gender, they both come out the same in the political wash. I don't want a fortress around either, not for entirely selfless reasons but because wherever there is a fence, I assume I will somehow be on the wrong side of it.


Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 26, 2018, 04:35:18 PM
Fair enough. I'm sorry things are so fraught for you.

I'm against Nation States as it happens. Should the world exist as a huge blueprint being drawn up afresh and I was asked my opinion I'd say they were a thoroughly bad idea. They evolved historically for reasons and will no doubt evolve again.

But as we're in the here and now with them as a cultural and political reality, there's as much point railing against them as far as I'm concerned as there is pretending rain or snow aren't real. They are realities that have to be negotiated practically and with a sense of fairness. The economies of countries that base themselves on high taxation for high welfare provision would be f*cked with no incentives to make that level of public investment without stable populations. In world population terms it would be like every passenger of the Titanic trying to sail away in one life boat. It would be capsized in minutes.

I also think there is a general underlying issue that feeling like one may be on the wrong side of the border is not morally sufficient to justify bringing down a border that someone else is dependent on. Some people need their boundaries for good reason like an epidemic of male sexual and other violence that shows no signs of letting up any time soon and their needs should not be ignored.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Apr 26, 2018, 04:57:14 PM
If anything it feels like violent misogyny is on the rise. Take for instance the attack in Toronto and the as yet unsubstantiated, but highly probable,  link to the Incel movement.  All this malignant hatred and brainwashing is bubbling up under the surface and there will be some men who want to act on it. Also itís not like society gives out the message that this is unacceptable. Look at what those four rugby players in Northern Ireland got away with. Itís no wonder women are feeling guarded and defensive. 
 Nobody is saying we want to make the fortress higher, just that there has to be some protection afforded to us when we are at our most vulnerable.   
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: [...] on Apr 26, 2018, 05:24:28 PM
I also think there is a general underlying issue that feeling like one may be on the wrong side of the border is not morally sufficient to justify bringing down a border that someone else is dependent on. Some people need their boundaries for good reason like an epidemic of male sexual and other violence that shows no signs of letting up any time soon and their needs should not be ignored.

I agree but I said earlier that this reminded me of the women only train carriages proposal, ultimately dismissed as a normalization of male violence toward women. I don't know if the status of being female needs to be defended from would-be interlopers wishing to become female. I do know for a fact that violence towards women by men needs to be prosecuted and that is what I think should be prioritised rather than sandbag attempts to preserve the status of what constitutes femaleness. I couldn't care less about a man wearing a dress but I bitterly resent not being able to go for a walk whenever and wherever I feel like. I've unexpectedly found that when I cycle using my bike with a cross bar and dropped handlebars, the ride is blissfully easy by comparison with the amount of grief I get if I use the one with a step through fame. In the dark, I've been Sir'd, despite having almost waist length hair.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 26, 2018, 05:52:31 PM
I also think there is a general underlying issue that feeling like one may be on the wrong side of the border is not morally sufficient to justify bringing down a border that someone else is dependent on. Some people need their boundaries for good reason like an epidemic of male sexual and other violence that shows no signs of letting up any time soon and their needs should not be ignored.

I agree but I said earlier that this reminded me of the women only train carriages proposal, ultimately dismissed as a normalization of male violence toward women. I don't know if the status of being female needs to be defended from would-be interlopers wishing to become female. I do know for a fact that violence towards women by men needs to be prosecuted and that is what I think should be prioritised rather than sandbag attempts to preserve the status of what constitutes femaleness. I couldn't care less about a man wearing a dress but I bitterly resent not being able to go for a walk whenever and wherever I feel like. I've unexpectedly found that when I cycle using my bike with a cross bar and dropped handlebars, the ride is blissfully easy by comparison with the amount of grief I get if I use the one with a step through fame. In the dark, I've been Sir'd, despite having almost waist length hair.

They are not necessarily going to be would-be interlopers who wish to become female though. That's the point. They might not be trans at all and just exploiting the fact that they can't be challenged when the basis is self-id.

There are people who need boundaries, people who fear boundaries and people who invade other people's boundaries.

I'm the first, you are the second, they are the third.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Apr 26, 2018, 06:07:12 PM
 Female only train carriages would be an extra layer of segregation that we donít have already so the two examples arenít comparable.  Again itís another strawman. Nobody is calling for a rollback of current trans-peoplesĎ rights. Saying that we donít want to allow just any man who wants to identify as female into protected womensí spaces is not normalising violence against women, itís a pragmatic response to what we see happening already. .
 And again, everybody agrees that more should be done to prosecute men who commit sexual and violent offences against women, or anybody for that matter.  Itís not an argument, itís a fact. 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on Apr 26, 2018, 09:54:47 PM
Hear hear.

Other things that make me mad,
Calling transexual women who dont support self id truscum.
Disgusting.

Reverse rape -  this is what transactivists call the occurrence of a trans person being refused sex because the other person isn't into it. Basically having someone say no to you is reverse rape.

FGM -  transphobic because of the female word. It's exclusionary.

I follow a black feminist on twitter who has suffered FGM and she is horribly verbally abused because she won't accept its exclusionary.

It's this kind of attack on women's issues that's making women less and less willing to give any ground in the debate.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Trifle on Apr 27, 2018, 07:31:14 PM
^ Awful. That sounds like something from an Atwood novel.

Yes I was thinking the same - no wonder words like TIM are being used if people claiming to be women are demanding access to womenís spaces and behaving like entitled, abusive men. Thatís what I struggle with. Iím being told I need to accept on faith something that Iíve never experienced myself, that contradicts biological facts and my own perception of the world; as Iíve said I donít identify with gender so I donít understand Ďcisí - itís never a term I would willingly apply to myself. Added to that there are instances of people saying they are women who are acting out the patriarchy on other women in ways I usually only observe men doing.  No wonder biological women perceive these people as male.

I wouldnít really care much if it was a group of people I didnít understand who were getting on with their lives without adversely affecting anyone else. But thereís a lot of evidence that isnít whatís happening. And that this could be a trojan horse for men to attack feminism is also pretty terrifying.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Trifle on Apr 27, 2018, 07:48:02 PM
Iíve also just got around to watching this that someone posted earlier. Does anyone know how to verify if this is definitely factually accurate? Itís pretty horrifying.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XAFcYTwn33A
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on Apr 27, 2018, 08:31:16 PM
I'm not sure I can sit through that half hour of rapists on a Friday night.

But thanks for the link.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Grey on Apr 27, 2018, 08:37:08 PM
I'm not fond of the word "cis" no one asks if I mind that being used....it sounds like I've developed  a slow leak

Back in the day when butches and femmes were having a time of it being accepted into lesbian venues/orgs I don't remember us doing everything we could to shut it all down
It wasn't pretty but for the most part we waited it out
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: two monkeys on Apr 27, 2018, 10:14:13 PM
Iíve also just got around to watching this that someone posted earlier. Does anyone know how to verify if this is definitely factually accurate? Itís pretty horrifying.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XAFcYTwn33A

The names of the men mentioned in the video are listed in the description below. A quick qoogle search of a name brings up results.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on Apr 27, 2018, 10:22:47 PM
I'm not fond of the word "cis" no one asks if I mind that being used....it sounds like I've developed  a slow leak

Back in the day when butches and femmes were having a time of it being accepted into lesbian venues/orgs I don't remember us doing everything we could to shut it all down
It wasn't pretty but for the most part we waited it out
Grey, are you saying women should just wait it out and it will all calm down?
Re self id I mean..
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 27, 2018, 10:39:35 PM
I thought she meant they were patient rather than destructive in the face of feelings of non-acceptance.

It was the other way around when I was growing up - all butch and femme with no other scene. I had to move to London before that changed.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Lust for Life on Apr 27, 2018, 11:37:20 PM
I'm not fond of the word "cis" no one asks if I mind that being used....it sounds like I've developed  a slow leak

Back in the day when butches and femmes were having a time of it being accepted into lesbian venues/orgs I don't remember us doing everything we could to shut it all down
It wasn't pretty but for the most part we waited it out
Grey, are you saying women should just wait it out and it will all calm down?
Re self id I mean..

I thought she meant that sitting and waiting was better than forcing the issue (and that transpeople might try that approach?)
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on Apr 27, 2018, 11:48:24 PM
Ok, thanks. That sounds right. I'm so tired I can't think straight.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Trifle on Apr 28, 2018, 10:23:28 AM
Iíve also just got around to watching this that someone posted earlier. Does anyone know how to verify if this is definitely factually accurate? Itís pretty horrifying.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XAFcYTwn33A

The names of the men mentioned in the video are listed in the description below. A quick qoogle search of a name brings up results.

Ok, thanks. I hadnít seen that before. This makes me feel very angry.  I can see where ĎParasitically occupying the bodies of the oppressedí came from.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on Apr 29, 2018, 01:16:42 PM
Good article in the Graun.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/29/violent-misogyny-not-confined-to-internet-incels?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
 It echos a lot that we have been speaking about on this thread.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on Apr 29, 2018, 03:40:40 PM
Yes the Guardian is catching up with us!


Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Plus One on Apr 30, 2018, 03:49:17 PM
I posted that this issue was primarily about male privilege, but I've been having a think.

I have experienced numerous times when straight man have become angry at me because I won't even consider them as a sexual partner. Sometimes that anger led to me feeling unsafe and concerned about what might happen if I didn't manage to get myself out of that situation. I'm sure a lot of us have experienced that.

I also remember being told in no uncertain terms on GB that I should consider bisexual partners and this came with rather a lot of anger and an implicit idea that not even considering them made me biphobic. The feeling I got was that there was an assumption of prejudice to begin with, and anything I said, regardless of reasons important to me, was going to be taken as a slight on the whole bisexual population rather than what it was, a desire to find the most suitable partner *for me* given who I am.

And now I'm being told I must consider transexuals, or female IDing males, as sexual partners otherwise I'm transphobic.

I also remember, not without shame, that in my youth I have felt anger at the odd straight woman for not considering me as a sexual partner. I never told any woman that she *should* consider me but if I'm brutally honest with myself, that anger was present in my mind if not my actions.

The truth that we all recognise is that we don't *have* to consider *anyone* as sexual partners for *any* reason.  But it's a bitter pill sometimes.

I imagine a transperson must get a lot of rejection from men and women and this is being equating as non-acceptance in the wider world and non-acceptance as their gender ID. In a sense that is exactly what it is. I won't consider a transwoman as a sexual partner, fully transitioned or otherwise, regardless of how accepting I might be of them on a non-sexual level.  You might be a woman, you might ID as a woman, I might treat you completely as a woman because you've transitioned or simply because I'm respecting your choices, but I won't sleep with you, or consider it, because when it comes down to it, you are not a woman in the same way that I am a woman and that's a bottom line for me. That's *my reality* regardless of how you might feel about it or whether you feel that's unfair, or unequal, or just plain wrong, choice of partner is mine alone. My reality can only be changed by me, your reality cannot be imposed on me, regardless of semantics, pronouns, hormones or operations. 

If that transperson refuses to accept *my reality* of the social and biological differences between us, then it's clear to them that I'm transphobic. Just like to some men, I'm a man-hater, and to some bisexuals, I'm biphobic.

But in reality, all that's really happened is that I've rejected you in the same way that I might reject a female born lesbian for whatever reason, or they might reject me. It's no different to me rejecting someone on the basis of height, weight, mental health, physical disability, a port wine birthmark, a club foot, a history of substance abuse, bingo wings, class, educational level, eye colour, ginger hair, face shape, tit size, femininity, masculinity. It's just the way it is, the way I am. Partner choice is too subjective a choice to base any blanket condemnation from any group of people. We all rule out great swathes of the population on the flimsiest of reasons and the most profound. And what's flimsy to you might be profound to me. The pool of "yes" people is tiny in proportion to the pool of "I'd rather poke my eye out with a rusty nail" people. None of it is fair, it's not 'equal opportunity' for any of us.

Not accepting someone as a sexual partner is not a rejection of them as a human. It's not a hate message. You might not like my reasons, or agree with them but unless you are going to forcefully make me sleep with someone I don't want to, you have to live with them. And we do. We wouldn't even be having this discussion if there wasn't a history of violence towards women by men and a much bigger problem accepting "no".

Then I think about the Incels.. is the anger in proportion to the possibilities of future acceptance/rejection?  I might get rejected by a woman, but the chances are I will find a woman who will want me at some point, I can rationalise, I can attempt not to take it so personally, I can argue with myself that I just wasn't her type, I can compare to the times I have rejected an advance and know that it doesn't mean I'm hated by all women... for a transsexual the future may not look so bright.

Anyway, given that this isn't the first time I've been told who I should consider as a partner, and that the last time was by women in this forum, and my own shortcomings in my life, I wanted to just give it a bit more thought..  and of course I recognise that our issue with this is predominantly about violence towards women from men, so I know it's not the same, but I was thinking about the equation between acceptance of sexual partners and acceptance as a whole.

Sorry it's such a ramble...organising my thoughts as I went along...not really sure what my point is, if any.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Plus One on Apr 30, 2018, 05:29:24 PM
I suppose I'm wondering why any group of people would expect an objective response to something which is entirely subjective.
Why the disconnect between reality and some imagined utopia? Thinking it, or arguing for it, won't make it happen.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Musette on Apr 30, 2018, 05:51:59 PM
Great post, Plus One.
I agree that one's choice of partner is entirely subjective and personal. It seems a no-brainer really.
I can accept or reject whoever I like for any reason I like. There is no legislation (as far as I'm aware) that makes choosing a partner an equal opportunities affair.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on Apr 30, 2018, 08:05:59 PM
Yes, thank you, Plus One, finally this thread might graduate out of being a Mumsnet proxy. 

That GRC/self-ID aggro is arising in feminism now instead of 2004 makes it seem awfully like it's part of the same reactionary angst zeitgeist of Brexit and Trump but in lefty clothing.  I don't even know whether my own doubts are reasonable or prejudices*.  I don't have any trans friends of my own to provide a touchstone of sanity on this though I listen to friends of friends on FB.

* Though the "We have as much legal right to stop you coming in as you do to come in here" at 3:58 in the Bindel video is surely bollocks. And possibly a paradox.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 01, 2018, 12:34:14 AM
Yes, thank you, Plus One, finally this thread might graduate out of being a Mumsnet proxy. 

That GRC/self-ID aggro is arising in feminism now instead of 2004 makes it seem awfully like it's part of the same reactionary angst zeitgeist of Brexit and Trump but in lefty clothing.  I don't even know whether my own doubts are reasonable or prejudices*.  I don't have any trans friends of my own to provide a touchstone of sanity on this though I listen to friends of friends on FB.

* Though the "We have as much legal right to stop you coming in as you do to come in here" at 3:58 in the Bindel video is surely bollocks. And possibly a paradox.

I agree its a good post but the rest of that sentence sounds like you're sneering at everyone who posted previously, Wolfie..

I think in 2004 there was quite a lot of browbeating and bullying going on and maybe that was enough to shut women up when we thought we were debating human rights and GRA's that were based on objective and medical evidence. So as recently as 2009 a regular trans woman poster  didn't feel it was odd to state on here that:

"the idea of a trans woman being completely recognised in law in every respect without having undergone sex reassignment surgery is one that makes me very uncomfortable except where a suitably qualified doctor agrees that there is a significant medical reason beyond someoneís control why it isnít possible to perform the operation."   

She would be wrongly labelled a TERF for saying that now. But such reservations and similar ones gave an impression of the scope of what was envisaged at the time and that scope was much narrower and less invasive than the current rhetoric of transactivism.

I don't think most people envisaged the hijacking of language we'd be subject to, the lesbian erasure, the suggestion that its transphobic to not want to sleep with someone with a penis, the self-id as a premise for GRA which was not the basis of the debates around access in 2004, the level of no platforming for anyone who demurs and the lack of protection for lesbians from pork barrelling LGBT organisations who just like to follow the income streams.

 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 01, 2018, 02:39:41 AM
I agree its a good post but the rest of that sentence sounds like you're sneering at everyone who posted previously, Wolfie..

Yes you're right and I apologise bc there is plenty of honest doubt and discussion here as opposed to the instant shutdowns and downright ugliness that happens on MN. 

I could give you 10 examples of my ignorance and hypocrisies and metahypocrisies on this topic, but actually I don't see the point in discussing it without a diverse sprinkling of trans people present and feeling equal unlike poor sploatee a couple of years ago.

I've seen messageboards get out of kilter with their stated ethos before.  If GB isn't going to welcome trans people as equals we should at least own it by changing the registration terms which say we do.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 01, 2018, 07:13:45 AM
Suggesting there is ďno point in discussing itĒ unless there is a sprinkling of trans people actively declaring themselves a so in the debate IS an attempted shut down of the debate.

The two main issues on this thread have been 1) is it transphobic as alleged by some, to not consider people with penises as potential sexual partners, 2) Should self identification alone suffice as a legal means to change from male to female or vice versa.

Neither of those are arguments that tran people should not be able to participate in this message board as equals.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 01, 2018, 09:36:35 AM
 If it was a string of vicious  slurs then Iíd agree with you Wolfy, but itís hardly been an echo chamber. This is a womensí forum, and more over, a lesbian and bisexual forum, so it would seem incredibly relevant. There are precious few spaces for us to speak and be heard nowadays, especially on this particular subject. The majority of people on here didnít begrudge the women of colour theit own section on the boards, and neither should they.  I wouldnít dare write some of the posts Iíve written here on my Facebook page. Iíd be jumped on and attacked, and by people who know me quite well. I could definitely think of a couple of people who would be quite happy to release the hounds on me, which seems to be the standard response when discussing this issue. Iíve never been afraid to open my mouth about something if I donít agree with, but I donít want a target on my head, or to be made to feel even more vulnerable. This is a university town and there is a lot of activism that goes on, and I also donít want to be ostracised from the local LGBT community. I think itís easy to understand why I might feel unsafe.    Surely the extreme levels of vicious opprobrium being whipped up would further emphasise, rather than delegitimise spaces such as Ginger Beer.       
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 01, 2018, 09:58:27 AM
Its a two pronged attack isn't it? Its in any order necessary - either rely on "the unleash the dogs" and if that doesn't work invoke some contortion involving the constitution of the forum or establishment -

"You can't say that because the rules forbid it."
"No they don't?. How?"

And then you get verbal gymnastics that amount to an assertion that an aging feminist or tv presenter with gender critical views can't talk at a university about medieval paintings of pot plants because trans people who are not even attending the event will be too frightened of "actual violence" to go to their classes and therefore are being denied an education.

They wheeled that one out to stop Julie Bindel giving a lecture at the Working Class Movement Library on growing up as working class lesbian. They said it would cause sex workers and trans people who was present fear of actual violence and they threatened the Trustees with legal action if they allowed the talk to go ahead. Ignoring the fact that the only event at the Working Class Movement Library that night was Julie Bindel talking about growing up as a working class lesbian. So any person suffering "actual violence" from hearing anecdotes of her formative years in a mining community were people who actually chose to trot along and listen to them.

Which reminds me of the double silencing in the Riley J Dennis video further up. We're told that we can't indicate that we are not into penis sex by using the word lesbian, as some trans women id as lesbian and have penises but we are also told by Riley that we can't explicitly say we are not into penis sex because that hurts the feelings of  those who have penises.

So we can neither implicitly nor explicitly signal that we are not into penises. We must always give the impression that we are open to dick sex whether we are or we aren't. And this is a progressive world for us how exactly?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 01, 2018, 04:36:25 PM
I wasn't clear - Iím saying but actually it doesn't help *me*, personally, clear up in my head what is ultimately going to need to be a compromise.

I was nostalgically on gaydargirls the other day and received an obviously copypaste message from a crossdresser whose "About" is "I love getting dressed in glamorous lingerie and clothes and looking as sexy as I can ... have spent quite a fortune on outfits!" and my immediate instinct was "GTFO this is not your space" ŗ la Jenni Murray https://theguardian.com/society/2017/mar/05/jenni-murray-transgender-not-real-women-sunday-times-magazine.  OTOH i do remember years ago chatting on there to lesbian transsexual transwomen who were very sweet and I didn't bridle at their being there at all. 

So has the world changed or have I changed?  I have no idea on my own "transsexuals who agree with us are fine but modern 'transgenders' are frequently entitled wankers" misgivings - it's one of my ignorant spots and I'm still annoyed that Lily Madigan blocked me.

Nobody has explicitly argued that trans people should not be able to participate on this messageboard as equals, but in practice they don't. 

(ETA My attitude to penises is a lot more receptive than most people here and I did take people's feelings too lightly in my 1st post.)
 
Out again
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 01, 2018, 05:16:01 PM
 I thought we already had a compromise?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: hellohowareyoutoday on May 01, 2018, 05:37:18 PM
Nobody has explicitly said trans women can't use this messageboard (at least not in this thread), but if we use the main premises in this thread and simple deductive reasoning, it's very clearly the only logical conclusion. This is a messageboard for women, and most people in this thread are rejecting the idea that MtF individuals are women. Thus, how do they logically qualify for participation here?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 01, 2018, 06:11:31 PM
I donít think thatís a logical conclusion to draw never mind the only logical conclusion that can be drawn.

I donít think women complaining about attacks on their sexual autonomy by those labelling penis rejection transphobic or debating whether self id is enough for a GRA, subjects on which trans women are divided too, implies anything about transwomensí right to use GB. The user agreement explicitly  says they are entitled to use it and no one has argued to the contrary.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: [...] on May 01, 2018, 07:04:34 PM
I think it's fair to say that they don't qualify as potential sexual partners by virtue of being trans which does constitute a different degree of rejection than the other types of reasons. I put myself in the category of having no wish be in a relationship with a transwomam, regardless of any other characteristics. If that makes me transphobic which it probably does, there's nothing I can do about it.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Plus One on May 01, 2018, 07:53:56 PM
and most people in this thread are rejecting the idea that MtF individuals are women.

That's a leap, and not one I'm subscribing to. It's not what the thread is about.
I wouldn't want a relationship with anyone but a female-born lesbian who labels as such. That would exclude transwomen and a load of other labels, some of which I have no idea what they even mean.
Regardless, a transwoman (by that I mean fully transitioned) would not be getting a "you're a man!" finger pointed at them from me.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 01, 2018, 08:05:26 PM
 I think the crux is nobody has the right to question your sexual preferences. Your reasoning is your own business and itís nothing to do with anyone else. Not having sex with someone is not violent, itís not phobic, and itís not harming anybody else above and beyond the normal levels of human rejection that we all experience from time to time. I donít doubt that trans-people have it harder than others trying to find partners, but I am an ugly goblin faced little fucker and I also have a disability, so have been bounced on many occasions. Yep it sucks but thatís life. Bullying threatening and blackmailing people into giving you a shag is the first step on a road that I really donít want to go down.  If anything I found that the most successful way to get someone to sleep with me is to be nice to them, and I mean genuinely nice, not just Iíll buy you a drink, say complimentary things, then take advantage once youíre  pissed. Being an arse doesnít generally yield good results. I guess itís down to what kind of sex you want, and the power dynamic you want to achieve, but itís not the way I roll. Iíve been coerced bullied into sexual activity that I didnít want, and it was a horrible experience.         
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 01, 2018, 08:45:37 PM
I donít think that itís at all transphobic to fancy who you fancy, no one owns anyone else a fuck. However, I think that the premise of threads like this is transphobic.

There are women of some races that I find more attractive than others but starting a thread to announce the fact would be racist. Sitting around, chewing the fat over which types of lesbians are attractive is really dodgy ground.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 01, 2018, 09:07:17 PM
Nah. She didnít start the thread to discuss what sort of lesbians she fancied. She started the thread to question the political pathologisation of women who donít like dick. Very different.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Plus One on May 01, 2018, 09:23:40 PM
If someone's telling me I should like dicks, then the door is open for me to say I don't. We didn't light the fire.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 01, 2018, 09:37:11 PM
If someone's telling me I should like dicks, then the door is open for me to say I don't. We didn't light the fire.

Did someone tell you that you should like dick or is that part of the way in which trans women are being presented as predators?

Itís like the mural that Jezza liked, with the hook nosed financiers playing games on the back of the working poor. We all know that itís anti Semitic, at the same time as knowing that some Jewish people work in finance. Itís a trope thatís used to demonise Jewish people, in the same way that the cotton ceiling is a trope used to demonise trans women.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 01, 2018, 09:43:04 PM
Nah. She didnít start the thread to discuss what sort of lesbians she fancied. She started the thread to question the political pathologisation of women who donít like dick. Very different.

Hereís a quote, Betty, she seems to be as authoritative as anyone else announcing who the rest of us should be fucking.

Quote
We have a sexuality not a genderality and that means we are sexually attracted to women. Women have vaginas.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 01, 2018, 09:45:32 PM
I thought we were discussing our response to some prominent trans-activists, whose videos have had hundreds of thousands of views, Who are using incredibly aggressive, inflammatory, and quite frankly threatening language about lesbians who do not choose to have sex with them.
 Why do you not condemn them for their behaviour?
Would you be quite so dismissive if it was heterosexual men?
 Also I donít see any discussion about which lesbians we do and donít fancy. Iím sure there are some threats like that on these boards but this isnít one of them.     
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 01, 2018, 10:00:55 PM
Why would I want condone every bit of nonsense that someone says on twitter, who has time for that? You have a male child, have you checked that heís not in favour in the Incel group that mad bastard in Canada is a member of?

Iím equally dismissive of heterosexual men who tell me that I owe them sex and lesbians who behave in the same manner. What I donít try and do is generalise that behaviour onto whole groups becasue thatís prejudice.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 01, 2018, 11:34:12 PM
 
I hardly think that my ten y o sonís opinion of something heís never heard of is relevant to this thread.
 This shit is being touted on Everyday Feminism ffs. As a woman, and a feminist, and a lesbian, I find this rather disturbing. Kids spend a lot of time on YouTube and itís where they get a lot of their information. I know this because I have my own child to monitor.  Are you really comfortable with young girls clicking on this garbage and thinking that itís what feminism is about? 
This is a message board for lesbian and bisexual women, and while it is public, itís not being viewed by hundreds of thousands of people, and it certainly isnít claiming to be representative. Everybody is entitled to an opinion, even if itís one that you donít agree with. This is a space where women feel comfortable to discuss our views and concerns, Spaces such as these, especially for discussing such divisive topics as this one, are rare enough. 
 Also I donít see any evidence of people generalising or calling all trans-people rapists. If you can post up an example that would be helpful.
   
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 02, 2018, 12:12:05 AM
Of course your child opionion of incels isnít relevant, in exactly the same way that something some nutter said on Twitter isnít relevant to me or any one else who didnít say it, trans or not. Suggesting that trans people, should be collectively responsible for anything another trans personís says, is prejudice.

If you donít think that there is transphobia on this thread, go and take a look at the dog whistle posts that two monkeys put up, they are hateful, prejudice, unevidenced bile, designed to make people fearful of trans people.

There is no safe space for prejudice and bigotry. It shouldnít be tolerated anywhere. Trans peopleís lives arenít up for debate anymore than black lives, lesbian lives or your life is.

People are indeed entitled to opionions I donít agree with, however, they are not entitled to voice those opionions in a public space and expect them to go unchallenged, thatís what free speech is about.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 02, 2018, 12:31:39 AM
Hereís some more unevidenced transphobic bullshit:

Quote
Many butch or even boyish teenage lesbians are being funnelled down the transitioning route. The figures have risen by 1000% in five years.

Quote
Everyone needs to wake up and see that women's rights matter and are under serious threat.

Along with biologicalís entire post on page two, which has more in common with a distopian horror novel than any basis in fact.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Earl on May 02, 2018, 12:37:18 AM
Women's 'rights' are perhaps, under threat?
https://mobile.twitter.com/HadleyFreeman/status/991202369848401920
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 02, 2018, 01:02:46 AM
Oh fuck it.

Quote
There are women of some races that I find more attractive than others but starting a thread to announce the fact would be racist. Sitting around, chewing the fat over which types of lesbians are attractive is really dodgy ground.

I'm really glad someone mentioned this.  Riley J Dennis could probably turn me against kittens by posting in favour of them, but re the infamous https://youtu.be/2X-PgHSZh6U, I do think that if I find myself consistently swiping left on a particular subset of people I should sit and have a little think - just think - about why that might be.

When C4 broadcast a documentary about how people generally prefer to date within their own ethnic backgrounds there were lots of mutterings about "Yep people are racist arseholes."  Maybe, but there's also the fact that many people tend generally to be attracted to people they have backgrounds in common with and can relate to.  I imagine it's one of the reasons why vaginas evoke a depth of feeling in me that penises do not.

Now, I know there are extremely good reasons why many women want nothing to do with penises.  I also cannot deny that ten years ago, when someone I was meeting off the aforementioned Gaydar (she didn't have photos on her profile) told me "by the way I'm not caucasian" I felt sad she felt the need to declare it up front, whereas if she'd turned up with a penis she hadn't mentioned I would have felt at the very least nonplussed.

But I'm not entirely sure why not considering fancying trans people is necessarily less othering than not considering fancying people of different ethnic backgrounds. I'm not suggesting anyone here is saying it is.  But when I made a race comparison on Mumsnet I got accused of whataboutery and told "now perhaps we could talk about male rapists housed in womenís prisons?".
And I was hoping on GB we might get into more nuanced discussions of sexuality and identity because that's what makes Gingerbeer a more interesting place to me.  It may be, as Slanty says, a lot of people just feel too inhibited because the debate is so accusatory.

(Edited to juggle paragraphs)
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 02, 2018, 02:05:53 AM
Oh fuck it.

Now, I know there are extremely good reasons why many women want nothing to do with penises.

Yeah, its called sexuality. Its a real, actual thing. Some people are gay. Get over it.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 02, 2018, 03:51:32 AM
I meant that as an apology to abuse survivors if I've been crass.  But I've also agreed from the start that just not liking penises is as valid a reason for not liking penises as anything else.  So has everyone else on this thread.  That is a strawman.

There are also some lesbians who insist that they can still be lesbians while sleeping with or being in monogamous relationships with cis men.  To me that stretches definitions to the same extent as lady dick, but we're not fretting about it as a major issue. 

And you all know that in debates I am liable (usually unintentionally, for the record) to take unworldly positions based on abstract concerns of mine, but I've been seeing Top ask this for about two months now and I'm beginning to see her point. Has anybody here actually been personally cotton ceilinged or known anyone who has?  Or are the biggest threats to women and girls' rights the same miserable oppressions and horrors as they always have been, of which misogynistic trans people are a tiny part?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 02, 2018, 04:30:03 AM
(And "Oh fuck it" wasn't meant as a pun :-[ )
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 02, 2018, 07:49:20 AM
Iíve been cotton ceilinged here many times by bisexuals and queers hand wringing that my homosexuality is wrong and speculating that not being attracted to dick is as prejudiced as being racist and why canít I just be like them. It doesnít have to happen in a one on one situation for it to be real or oppressive. Topís line was that it is a thing made up by transphobes to cause moral panic and itís not genuine - which doesnít stack up if you set foot on social media and see it being argued by transactivists left right and centre on now fairly mainstream locations. In fact, being argued by you right now.

Oh and the suggestion you made that its ok not to like dick if you've been sexually abused but otherwise its just unfair prejudice. That's right there in the Riley J Dennis lecture. Telling the world that homosexuality is akin to racism. This shit again!
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 02, 2018, 09:33:35 AM
 It has been proposed that any member of male sex should be able to fill out a two page form, obtain a GRC and gain access to womensĎ spaces. This is any member of the male sex, not just trans-women. How can this not be perceived as a threat to womensí rights and safety? Iíve always been very clear that itís not the trans-people who worry me, itís any man who sees this as a convenient and legal way to get access to women. What is it about the entirety of human existence that reassures you that no member of the male sex would use this as an opportunity to rape and sexually assault women? Why is it unreasonable for me and other women to be concerned about this? If Iíve never noticed any violent misogyny anywhere then I wouldnít be worrying, but when I can hardly switch on my telly or click on my Internet browser without seeing it iím going to think that itís a problem.         
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Lust for Life on May 02, 2018, 09:55:09 AM
It has been proposed that any member of male sex should be able to fill out a two page form, obtain a GRC and gain access to womensĎ spaces. This is any member of the male sex, not just trans-women. How can this not be perceived as a threat to womensí rights and safety? Iíve always been very clear that itís not the trans-people who worry me, itís any man who sees this as a convenient and legal way to get access to women. What is it about the entirety of human existence that reassures you that no member of the male sex would use this as an opportunity to rape and sexually assault women? Why is it unreasonable for me and other women to be concerned about this? If Iíve never noticed any violent misogyny anywhere then I wouldnít be worrying, but when I can hardly switch on my telly or click on my Internet browser without seeing it iím going to think that itís a problem.       

This is the point, for me.

In fact, I would say that trans activists pushing for a simple form filling job are - knowingly or not, that remains the question - actually siding with weirdo sick men rather than with their trans sisters.




Plus, it's really only just dawning on me, having to go to all that trouble to be recognised as a woman is no guarantee of any feeling of sisterhood towards other women :-\

The fact that the only transsexuals (I am using this term historically) I ever met in the uk were absolutely in the feminist corner did colour my perception in a very positive way.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: [...] on May 02, 2018, 10:36:48 AM
One of the problems with this thread and topic is that no clear distinction is being made between what happens online and what happens in real life, and the pity of it is that now we've lost the gay women only spaces of the 80s and 90s, there's no practical way to measure the danger represented by allowing trans people to self ID.

A lot of the tone of this debate reminds me uncomfortably of the bar talk in the 80s/90s focussing on demonising S&M, berating anyone perceived to be propping up the patriarchy and generally scrutinising behaviour according to a set of theories quite some distance from actual lived experience. Back then it was for the purposes of asserting lesbian identity (which is why I felt I'd fail the test despite being out since my teens) and why now I feel on the wrong or at least minority side.

I want actual real experience and measurable examples of either aggressive transwomen or figures proving that murderous minded men are monitoring the progress of the law in order to put on a skirt the better to carry out their plans. Neither of these is likely which makes the whole thing no more than speculation.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 02, 2018, 10:51:01 AM
It's not made up, Betty, but it is possibly exaggerated and certainly exploited. I think Lyco said most of what I'd want to say at the top of page 3. 

Quote
Oh and the suggestion you made that its ok not to like dick if you've been sexually abused but otherwise its just unfair prejudice. That's right there in the Riley J Dennis lecture. Telling the world that homosexuality is akin to racism. This shit again!

If you got that from "just not liking penises is as valid a reason for not liking penises as anything else" I don't know what else to say. 

I'm the only person on this thread who has gone near the possibility that anyone who doesn't like dick might think twice about why they don't like dick and I didn't actually land on it.  It certainly wasn't a criticism of anybody else.  It's a reflection on me.

It was also wishing that it was possible to talk about the reality of sexual preferences without getting called a bigot, which is what you want too. Society is, in general, handling that badly.  But society is, in general, handling everything badly.  I'm fed up of it.  If there is no room for me to muse indecisively without people mistaking it for certainty and condemnation there's really no point in my saying anything.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 02, 2018, 11:28:55 AM
That was the disclaimer you issued but then landed on it, anyway. Will say more when I get out of work.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: સરસ on May 02, 2018, 01:03:22 PM
This is just a random post..

There are over 320 million Twitter users. Half of them uses Twitter everyday.  Most companies uses Twitter. All political parties uses Twitter, campaigning for politics, charity, social causes and everything else happen on Twitter. (other social platforms as well just in case someone gets all anal)

Young kids and young people get their opinions formed by bloggers and vloggers and goodness knows what else.. all on social media.. Most of them do not go and read the high brow books written by "intellectuals" to get their education from.

My random point is.. Anyone who dismiss what happens on Twitter (Social Media) as just a few bad idiots opinions is just a bit silly.. Or just really ignorant...







Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 02, 2018, 01:20:32 PM
^ yes, I think this is a very important point. I said it further up, but being a parent I noticed this more than others who perhaps arenít. I am 36 years old, so not particularly old fart, yet there is a massive gulf in my life experience and how I have gained my knowledge and information from that of somebody 20 years younger. Being in the position of having to to moderate the Internet usage of a child, I am painfully aware of how alien his experience growing up seems to me. Kids nowadays communicate in a completely different way to how we did, even still do. Heís not quite old enough for social media yet but I dread the day that he is, because itís an absolute minefield.
 What happens on Twitter and YouTube and other platforms does matter, because people read it, especially our youngest members of society. To dismiss it as nonsense would be incredibly neglectful of them.     
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 02, 2018, 03:19:07 PM
It's not made up, Betty, but it is possibly exaggerated and certainly exploited. I think Lyco said most of what I'd want to say at the top of page 3. 

Quote
Oh and the suggestion you made that its ok not to like dick if you've been sexually abused but otherwise its just unfair prejudice. That's right there in the Riley J Dennis lecture. Telling the world that homosexuality is akin to racism. This shit again!

If you got that from "just not liking penises is as valid a reason for not liking penises as anything else" I don't know what else to say. 

I'm the only person on this thread who has gone near the possibility that anyone who doesn't like dick might think twice about why they don't like dick and I didn't actually land on it.  It certainly wasn't a criticism of anybody else.  It's a reflection on me.

It was also wishing that it was possible to talk about the reality of sexual preferences without getting called a bigot, which is what you want too. Society is, in general, handling that badly.  But society is, in general, handling everything badly.  I'm fed up of it.  If there is no room for me to muse indecisively without people mistaking it for certainty and condemnation there's really no point in my saying anything.

I think you did land on it. There's no point having a disclaimer like that only to go on and say "But I'm not entirely sure why not considering fancying trans people is necessarily less othering than not considering fancying people of different ethnic backgrounds. I'm not suggesting anyone here is saying it is.  But when I made a race comparison on Mumsnet I got accused of whataboutery and told "now perhaps we could talk about male rapists housed in womenís prisons?".

I'm not surprised it went down like a ton of bricks on Mumsnet. I appreciate there is a difference between us in that you are are not hostile to having penis sex and I am. So when you talk about not wanting to have sex with a trans person and the reasons behind that is not necessarily about not wanting to have sex with a someone with a penis. Whereas with me it is and the penis is shorthand for all the other aspects of male bodiedness with or without the penis. But if you are saying to people who don't want to have sex with someone with a biological male form, "isn't that tantamount to racism?" you are making a very offensive analogy. Sexual orientation in adulthood, which I think is different from mere sexual preference, is not about unexamined prejudice. You can't think yourself straight. And I think the problem is very much down to people assuming that because they have an understanding of how their sexual orientation works that they understand how everyone's sexual orientation works. They think they can extrapolate and project onto other people and in reality, all they understand is their own. Never everyone else's.

So I don't agree that I share your wish to talk about the reality of sexual preferences without getting called a bigot. I'm not at all interested in discussing other people's sexual preferences other than the people I sleep with because they are their preferences and I have got nothing to contribute to their understanding. What we should never have is Riley fucking Dennis telling homosexual women that they need to get into dick or they are transphobic. Not least but not only because Riley Dennis has no way of understanding the sexual orientation of natal homosexual females and how our sexuality works and its none of her business or anyone else's what we do with our bodies.

And when a woman is p*ssed off about something, unless she's advocating violence, she's got every right to sound off about it on the internet, without being silenced or required to be suitably interesting or entertaining or to have to validate anyone's flaky sense of self. I am also more and more  glad of the Mum's army for not taking of any this naval gazing, nuance sucking madness on board and telling the identity obsessed, zombies from the 80's to do one.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 02, 2018, 07:31:44 PM
I think you did land on it. There's no point having a disclaimer like that only to go on and say "But I'm not entirely sure why not considering fancying trans people is necessarily less othering than not considering fancying people of different ethnic backgrounds.

When I said  "I'm not entirely sure why" it was closer to confusion than condemnation.  I was assuming people did have reasons that I didn't understand.   So I appreciate you explaining.

I'm not surprised it went down like a ton of bricks on Mumsnet.
Actually on MN I was talking about demonised minorities, not sex. Someone said "Name a fear that someone has stated here that you deem to be excessive and I am fairly sure that there is evidence of it happening either in the UK or elsewhere."  I've used gays and Muslims as comparisons too.

I appreciate there is a difference between us in that you are are not hostile to having penis sex and I am. So when you talk about not wanting to have sex with a trans person and the reasons behind that is not necessarily about not wanting to have sex with a someone with a penis.
Whereas with me it is and the penis is shorthand for all the other aspects of male bodiedness with or without the penis..


Fair enough, I didn't fully understand this.

But if you are saying to people who don't want to have sex with someone with a biological male form, "isn't that tantamount to racism?" you are making a very offensive analogy..

But I didn't even say that not fancying people of whatever ethnic background is racism.  I said I would consider the possibility, just as I've considered the possibility that I'm transphobic based on my being irritated when transwomen started matching to me on OKC.

Sexual orientation in adulthood, which I think is different from mere sexual preference, is not about unexamined prejudice. You can't think yourself straight..

Granted, but personally Iím not sure where to draw the distinction.   I don't think RJD does either.
 
And I think the problem is very much down to people assuming that because they have an understanding of how their sexual orientation works that they understand how everyone's sexual orientation works. They think they can extrapolate and project onto other people and in reality, all they understand is their own. Never everyone else's.

I've don't think I've ever thought any of that but I'll have a think about it. I might need to explain my first post better.

So I don't agree that I share your wish to talk about the reality of sexual preferences without getting called a bigot. I'm not at all interested in discussing other people's sexual preferences other than the people I sleep with because they are their preferences and I have got nothing to contribute to their understanding.

I entirely get that my musings on the theoretical genitalia of theoretical people might be in bad taste, but it only serves to make me more uncomfortable about the premise of this thread. If it's nobody's business why doesn't it stop at "Nobody has to fuck anyone and nobody can expect anyone to fuck them"?  Why does it zero in on trans people and their crotches?  That's the othering bit.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 02, 2018, 08:33:47 PM
The point about twitter and social media is crucial. There are friends of my offspring that only watch YouTube and Netflix. They never open a newspaper or watch a news report. I find that really worrying what with all the manipulation of facts...
But when it comes to the cotton ceiling, it IS all over twitter. The very phrase is upsetting. The analogy with the glass ceiling and how women needed to smash through it... The fact that it's about one's pants feels really uncomfortable.

No trans person has personally asked me to have sex with them, but I have been castigated and called transphobic on twitter for stating I'm a lesbian and not interested in penises. I'm offended by that response when sexual preferences should be accepted without comment.

I certainly don't think lesbians or radical feminists have ratcheted up the debate, I think they (we) are responding.

Incidentally I've received examples from gb people in direct messages to post on here, I can only assume they don't wish to state their opinion because of the easy allegation of being transphobic for giving their opinion.
That proves to me that debate is almost shut down.
I will continue to discuss these issues and if you call me transphobic, you are entitled to that opinion, it doesn't mean its true or that I'm perturbed by it.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: સરસ on May 02, 2018, 08:37:25 PM


So I don't agree that I share your wish to talk about the reality of sexual preferences without getting called a bigot. I'm not at all interested in discussing other people's sexual preferences other than the people I sleep with because they are their preferences and I have got nothing to contribute to their understanding.

I entirely get that my musings on the theoretical genitalia of theoretical people might be in bad taste, but it only serves to make me more uncomfortable about the premise of this thread. If it's nobody's business why doesn't it stop at "Nobody has to fuck anyone and nobody can expect anyone to fuck them"? Why does it zero in on trans people and their crotches?  That's the othering bit.

Because us lesbians have been told that NOT wanting to have sex with a transwoman who clings onto her dick is pure transphobia and therefore we are bigots and hateful and should die like the rest of the cis scum ..

Personally I have met loads of trans women my whole life and every last one could not wait to get the penis part of their bodies chopped off even if the medical procedure way back in the 80's were a bit iffy.. I don't get or understand the whole penis is now the new vagina thing when it comes to some trans women.. and those one seems to me as the most vocal about us lesbians having lesbian sex with them. 

And once again we should all be ashamed to bleed like slaughtered pigs once a month because it is a vile cis thing and it is transphobic to even mention it because you play on your privilege if you stuck a tampon in your cis hole..

Just another random post..
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 02, 2018, 10:38:11 PM
I entirely get that my musings on the theoretical genitalia of theoretical people might be in bad taste, but it only serves to make me more uncomfortable about the premise of this thread. If it's nobody's business why doesn't it stop at "Nobody has to fuck anyone and nobody can expect anyone to fuck them"?  Why does it zero in on trans people and their crotches?  That's the othering bit.

I donít know any more ways to say that this is nothing to do with trans ness and everything to do with them being male sexed. They could think of themselves as straight cis male and my reaction or lack of would be the same.

Iíve been out since 1984 but still having to justify why I am not attracted to penises on a lesbian message board in 2018.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 03, 2018, 12:54:09 AM
Oh, this is a brilliant example of how the cotton ceiling has led directly to an attempted take over of a campus LGBT group.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/30093/university-albany-students-protest-local-pride-emily-zanotti?amp&__twitter_impression=true

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 03, 2018, 01:12:43 AM
Oh, this is a brilliant example of how the cotton ceiling has led directly to an attempted take over of a campus LGBT group.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/30093/university-albany-students-protest-local-pride-emily-zanotti?amp&__twitter_impression=true

Its so not just some weirdos in a small corner of Twitter.

Transactivists managed to not only get an article pulled from a psychotherapy journal recently but to get the editor to do the most grovelling apology for including a paper that looked at other explanations than trans for gender non-conformity. It had met all academic standards and criteria for publication. There was no hate speech or violence in it.

The reason it was pulled was because transctivists argued that it transgressed professional guidelines on conversion therapy. Guidelines that were hard fought for and won by gays and lesbians. Now we are having transactivists saying that gays, lesbians and heterosexuals (but with all their energies targetted specifically at lesbians) should be subject to what is effectively conversion therapy so we don't "unfairly restrict" our sexual partners.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 03, 2018, 01:14:39 AM
 I would laugh at its patheticness, if it wasnít so bloody worrying. Youngsters are being brainwashed by this nonsense. What ever happened to a bit of critical thinking? 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 03, 2018, 01:36:57 AM
I donít know any more ways to say that this is nothing to do with trans ness and everything to do with them being male sexed. They could think of themselves as straight cis male and my reaction or lack of would be the same.

You don't have to.  I'm not addressing you in that case.  This thread is asking about transwomen and if it were asking the same question about straight cis males it wouldn't get beyond two posts.  It's a proxy for transwomen's inclusion.


The main distinction for me between women and men is whether I can fall in love with them, and that's not unheard of in gay people, I think, that it's the capacity for emotional connection that defines how someone identifies more than sexual attraction alone, and of course it's not a choice or a trainable capacity.

So let's say I do, as per my first post, believe trans women are women, yet in practice I never have any more feelings for a transwoman than I do for a man and I resent being expected to.  In that case of course the part of my identity that is a fallacy is the "I believe transwomen are women" bit.  It would mean that I don't believe that after all; it would not mean that I'm obliged to have feelings for transwomen because of my political belief.  You can substitute love or sex into that equation and get the same outcome provided you are a person not interested in that with a man.  I don't see the need for any substantive disagreement between us there.

And while I'm here, Betty, im sorry if ive ever done anything, ever, that would make you think that I think you have to justify your sexuality, of course I don't and of course you don't need me to tell you that and so on.  I'm more inclined not to take it personally but attribute it to this whole fucking shit storm of acrimony and misunderstanding around this issue.


Blythe, I think the last thing this situation needs is extra accusations of transphobia, you won't be getting them from me.  I'm seeing a mutually reinforced animosity and radicalisation of two sides with the worst examples of both being seen as representative.  Last year I was rolling my eyes at Riley and people insisting that sexual dimorphism was a social construct; this year I'm shocked at some really nasty, petty tweets Iím seeing from the leading lights of the GC movement, and we all know Twitter is ecumenical, it is a mine of almost any sort of human ugliness you want to find. 

It's impossible to come to any balanced decision based upon those politics and as you know,  I don't generally trust the psychiatric profession and in fact the whole medical establishment either having seen them at work.  It's very sad because there's only mistrust and blame around.  I see no light in this, it's got depressing as fuck to me even though it's probably never going to be a concrete problem in my life.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: [...] on May 03, 2018, 02:21:30 AM
This is what I said about online space:

"One of the problems with this thread and topic is that no clear distinction is being made between what happens online and what happens in real life, and the pity of it is that now we've lost the gay women only spaces of the 80s and 90s, there's no practical way to measure the danger represented by allowing trans people to self ID".

The relationship between online space and physical space remains an ongoing debate. The fact that there are thousands of posts and thousands of people reading posts is not necessarily representative of anything but that thousands of people write and read online. If I believed the virtual world was a mirror of the physical world I'd not set a foot outside.

It's been asked repeatedly on this thread, what examples are there of face to face meetings with aggressive transwomen, as opposed to repeating something read somewhere on the internet? Moreover, many posters have topped or tailed their concerns about transwomen with anecdotes of their actual experience of meeting transwomen who have all been perfectly cordial. So far on this thread, actual meetings with transwomen have a 100% perfectly fine rating. Is there anyone who even knows someone who's actually met a transwoman who's said "some women have penises"? If there are no examples of any such thing, then this is speculation fuelled by things people have read on the internet, things we can all find on the internet, and don't need any more help identifying. This is tabloid press territory.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 03, 2018, 09:30:34 AM
How to discredit every argument you donít agree with without effort - label it the MSM.

Lesbians on GB compared to the mass media spreading fake news. Yes Ďcos we are such a powerful dominant group in society with all the resources and influence. Gak.

There is reference on the thread to actual violence in the real world from the attack and conviction of trans woman and trans activist, Tara Woolf on Maria Maclachlan to the masked trans activist allies/men in Bristol and other stuff - I havenít gone through it with a fine tooth comb because itís not what the thread is specifically about. So by all means shove your fingers in your ears and say ďuntil I see evidence of x, Iím not listening.Ē But it donít carry any weight if thatís not the point under discussion and there is evidence of x there that you are ignoring.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 03, 2018, 09:54:39 AM
 I think one of the reasons that few people if any on here can give examples of violence aimed at them is because they know better than to open their mouth. Iíve been called turf to my face a few times by people I know and have been friends with. One of them is a person who now identifies as male, but until a year ago in their mid 20s didnít display any signs of transness. The other week he got proper nasty with the organiser of our book club for accidentally missgendering him while thanking him for book suggestions on Facebook.  The other is a trans-woman who I was at uni with, and who is known to be quite aggressive about trans-issues. You know, one of these people that if you utter one word they donít agree with, you know what youíre going to get.
 Not examples of physical violence, but by the standards of violence defined in this debate I expect it counts, or it would count if I wasnít a woman and a lesbian.
 There is violence, and thereís being made to feel like you cannot express an opinion because you might become the victim of violence. Theyíre the same thing in my book, and lead the same outcome.         
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: [...] on May 03, 2018, 10:24:06 AM
So when they said 'some of my best friends are transwomen' they didn't really mean it; I should have guessed.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 03, 2018, 10:29:06 AM
Its not even the point of the thread though is it, Slanty?

Being annoyed at being labelled a transphobe and all of the potential consequences of that, in terms of reputation, no platforming etc - just because you don't consider transwomen who have had no surgery as potential sexual partners, does not require evidence of transwomen physically attacking anyone. Its not even trans women per se who are saying those things. Its vocal transactivists. Some trans women do not agree (in fact, disagree very strongly) and that has been repeated throughout the thread like the pattern through a stick of rock.

And the proposition that changing the law so that legal gender can be determined by self id by everyone including creepy, self serving men who ignore women's boundaries will make women less safe as a whole  - doesn't require evidence of violent transwomen acting under current laws either.   
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Sorted. on May 03, 2018, 10:31:04 AM
I have been asked, by a trans woman, if I would Ďsuck lady-dickí.
I said ĎNo I wouldntí  She said I was Ďa fuckingn  transphobic!í   I was out with a trans friend and having a blast.

Granted she was pissed and had clearly not had a great night - but still.  Iím not a bigot.  I donít wish to deny anyone any rights. .  I live in Brighton.  The discourse in Brighton around gender very much reflects social media. Itís vile and there is an expectation for everyone to follow a certain line lest they get labelled phobic.  No one in Brighton likes to be cursed with that.    I personally know lots of lesbian women (particularly my age and above) who wonít use the lesbian spaces because they feel hostility.
I can see why.  Interestingly (or maybe not) the biggest, angriest, misogynistic noise  comes from genderqueer/gender neutral/male feminist (brocialist) groups not trans women themselves - In my direct experience. In Brighton.

#notallpeople





 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 03, 2018, 10:50:25 AM
^ ^^  The last line of my previous post. 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 03, 2018, 11:08:06 AM
I've seen the Brocialists as being one of the main prime movers in this sort of transactivism too, Sorted.

I do think trans women are being used as mens trojan horse to silence and attack feminism. And its a way of doing so without feeling as vulnerable to being labelled sexist or misogynist because they hide behind the pretence of fighting transmisogyny or "cis-sexism" which is a made up load of codswallop. They have never shown any stomach for fighting sexism or misogyny against women in general. Unless its a shield to hide behind to fire bullets at Owen Smith for using a tennis expression.

But I do think its easier for men to see trans women as women in all respects because they see being a man as something that has to be won and claimed and fought day in and say out. You can't be a man by being a male child who just grew up. To them you must be a man by performing masculinity and that's a constant effort. So someone not engaging with that fight to claim manhood falls into the sphere of "the other" - the sphere where they put women.

And it was interesting when one of the leading established transwomen spokespeople was defending Lily Madigan running as women's officer - she said something like "This poor teenager who has bravely relinquished her masculinity" - and that was somehow relevant - that she WAS a woman in all respects because she had relinquished her masculinity.

And we know that a woman isn't simply a human being of either sex who relinquishes masculinity. And there are profound social and political consequences to rebranding women as anyone who relinquishes stereotypical masculinity or performs stereotypical femininity - consequences that we above everyone else have a right to an opinion on. But there is no respect for our voices. Partly because we've never fully respected our own or each other's voices and partly because there is a huge external interest invested in silencing and marginalising us.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 03, 2018, 11:37:25 AM
I have to say as well, before I bomb off in the car to Suffolk - there seems to a massive contradiction on this thread.

On the one hand our concerns are dismissed as irrelevent because nothing said on-line has meaning or relevance or currency or reflects reality because words without materialisation have no power. That's what we are being told.

And yet women can't speak to each other in a private meeting because words equal hate crime and actual violence. And us even having this discussion on-line is characterised as transphobic and hurtful.

Which is it? Is it the case that chatting bubbles doesn't hurt anyone or that it is so frightening it has to be shut down and silenced?

Can't have it both ways.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Grey on May 03, 2018, 07:43:49 PM
I'm not fond of the word "cis" no one asks if I mind that being used....it sounds like I've developed  a slow leak

Back in the day when butches and femmes were having a time of it being accepted into lesbian venues/orgs I don't remember us doing everything we could to shut it all down
It wasn't pretty but for the most part we waited it out
Grey, are you saying women should just wait it out and it will all calm down?
Re self id I mean..

I thought she meant that sitting and waiting was better than forcing the issue (and that transpeople might try that approach?)

Yes-it's the forcing I object to strongly-not the self IDing-I fully respect that
It's the demolishing of lesbian/womyn's spaces-so many years of lesbian culture

Incel is about absolute ownership of women's attention and the price they pay if it's "refused"
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 03, 2018, 08:54:19 PM
It's not that it doesn't count because it's online, it's that it's there on both sides.  There's unpersoning and "unless I punch them it's not hatred" on both sides and this far along I don't think it does matter who started it.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 04, 2018, 10:24:29 AM
It's not that it doesn't count because it's online, it's that it's there on both sides.  There's unpersoning and "unless I punch them it's not hatred" on both sides and this far along I don't think it does matter who started it.

The position that it doesn't count because its online is what was said in the above post and thats what I was responding to.

As for "its there on both sides and I can't work out who started it" - nobody is asking you to umpire and score an exchange of gratuitous insults. The fact that some people of all persuasions get locked in to doing that doesn't mean that criticisms of certain political positions can't be objectively discussed or that women can't attend meetings without being blocked by blokes in masks.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 04, 2018, 10:42:02 AM
 It kind of does matter who started it though doesnít it? Lesbians arenít the ones telling people who they should and shouldnít be prepared to have sex with, and attacking themselves for disagreeing.
 Why is it only lesbians who are being targeted in this way? You might want to ask yourself that question. 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: hellohowareyoutoday on May 05, 2018, 05:52:41 AM
Ha, came across this anecdote on reddit. So in the Trans Hell of the future, in addition to the predatory male midwife, the speedy athlete chasing medals at any cost, the intimidating masculine dementia ward caregiver, men will also be changing gender for insurance savings.

(http://i64.tinypic.com/axh0qx.jpg)
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 05, 2018, 10:42:10 AM
I think theyíve already equalised  The cost of insurance in the UK so there is no longer any difference between men and women.  Unfair on women you might say, who are on the whole safer drivers, but thatís a different thread. 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 05, 2018, 10:46:34 AM
Yeah. It was a rare case of discrimination going in womens favour based on women as a class costing less in insurance payouts. So they managed to shut it down obviously.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Trifle on May 05, 2018, 11:01:42 AM
What I donít understand is that given history why itís so hard for a lot of women to believe other women are being silenced over this and that it could affect women as a group and harm them. Women have been silenced and abused a huge amount through history in very complex and subtle ways and they still are now.  Feminists have been abused throughout history and the suffragettes used to be seen as terrible by a lot of other women. And I canít think off the top of my head of an example where a group of women who thought women were being oppressed by something, including a lot of academic women, had no point in what they were arguing and they were simply being duped by something they had misunderstood or imagined.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 05, 2018, 11:15:37 AM
I think in some cases itís political tribalism. Theyíve made past decisions on different subjects and aligned themselves to what they see as their political tribe. So every issue that comes up after that, they just ask what take their existing tribe has on the subject. In which case their role is to shout along with their tribe and chant their slogans without much examination of whether they stack up.

It can also be that they just genuinely donít want what is being said to be true so they will deny until the cows come home that it is.

And basically there are those who cannot handle the complex balancing and acknowledged trading-off that has to be done when there is a genuine conflict of interest between two victimised minorities. They have to portray one as the demon group and one as the innocent victim so the solution becomes ďpick your side, bash one and excuse the otherĒ. The picking of sides is usually done on the basis of whoís benefits will align more with or aid their own interests. Itís dressed up as victim protection so has a supposedly moral purpose but it creates more injustice.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Lust for Life on May 05, 2018, 11:21:22 AM
I think theyíve already equalised  The cost of insurance in the UK so there is no longer any difference between men and women.  Unfair on women you might say, who are on the whole safer drivers, but thatís a different thread.

It's not a different thread though, is it? One of the major points of this discussion is that statistics about gender differences will become worthless.  The insurance companies aren't waiting for that. And upping women's premiums is gender politics gone mad ::) :-*
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Trifle on May 05, 2018, 11:36:56 AM
^^ OK, yes that makes sense, good points.

I just wish I could see more of an attitude of Ďiím going to make damn sure there isnít anything in what the feminists are sayingí first. Rather than one of Ďoh thatís just the terfsí, which I have heard proclaimed by women in several different and worrying contexts. Iím not sure where I got this expectation from because itís probably pretty unrealistic given history and all that...
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 05, 2018, 11:58:10 AM
Yes. I think itís because they feel that have to start from the premise that there is nothing to see here. This is just transphobic trickery because they cannot deal with the arguments or the facts. In the same way that any criticism of Jeremy Corbyn however well founded must be a ďBlairite plotĒ.

But itís amazing how they discount the voices of trans women who share gender critical positions or just think whatís been advocated on their behalf is bay shít crazy. And how they are willing to deem women liars or suggest their opinions donít matter or tell them effectively to shut up.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 05, 2018, 12:09:31 PM
 The Guardian published a letter from transsexuals yesterday asking for self identification to be properly discussed as they felt it was a threat to women's rights and spaces and invalidated their journey..
Very brave given the current climate.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 05, 2018, 12:28:06 PM
Yes, very brave and Iím sure there a lot of them that have enough on their plate to deal with, without drawing the heat from what is a fanatical, activist base, a lot of whom seem to be in American locations but have no respect for cultural sovereignty. And the Guardian may find itself being targeted by that plonker of a Labour MP who sits on the press committee and who is witch-hunting publications that publish pieces from gender critical perspectives. Frightening times.

During the Working Class Library protests, we got tellingly accused of misunderstanding the First Amendment by transactivists. When we pointed out that the First Amendment only applied in the USA, and not Salford, Manchester. We were told ďWell whatever your local equivalent isĒ. Like every country in the World just makes a local adaptation of the American legal system. What they are lacking in brains, they sure make up in arrogance, conceit and ignorance of history, law and geography.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Musette on May 05, 2018, 03:27:56 PM
Ha, came across this anecdote on reddit. So in the Trans Hell of the future, in addition to the predatory male midwife, the speedy athlete chasing medals at any cost, the intimidating masculine dementia ward caregiver, men will also be changing gender for insurance savings.

When I had my first child 18 years ago I had a male midwife.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: hellohowareyoutoday on May 05, 2018, 07:24:22 PM
Musette, you must be a time traveller who gave birth to your child in the dystopian future. Do whole meals come in small tablets yet? Have we finally got flying cars? Do cis women even have rights anymore?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 05, 2018, 08:11:31 PM
Oh Hhayt :)
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Lust for Life on May 05, 2018, 10:16:00 PM
 ;D

Although the male midwife thing is that they usually ask if you mind being assisted by a male midwife/you are allowed to ask for a female one. And if you ask for a female one and are not allowed to object to a woman who clearly has a man's body, that's weird and insensitive.

(As an aside, I don't think I would have objected to a male midwife any more than a male gynaecologist or gp. I have had good and terrible gp's of either flavour, and most of the female midwives were fantastic, except for the young Irish trainee I scared the life out of for being a naked lesbian homebirthing mother)
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Musette on May 06, 2018, 04:40:23 PM
Frankly, anyone who helped me and my baby emerge safely from the ordeal that was childbirth has my undying gratitude - male, female or anything in between.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Trifle on May 06, 2018, 07:15:34 PM
Iíve been reading some of the comments from one of the transsexual women who signed the guardian letter. She thinks women must retain the rights for safe spaces, including excluding those with GRC where appropriate. And that changing sex is never possible biologically. Great to hear.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Trifle on May 06, 2018, 07:32:13 PM
Yes. I think itís because they feel that have to start from the premise that there is nothing to see here. This is just transphobic trickery because they cannot deal with the arguments or the facts. In the same way that any criticism of Jeremy Corbyn however well founded must be a ďBlairite plotĒ.

But itís amazing how they discount the voices of trans women who share gender critical positions or just think whatís been advocated on their behalf is bay shít crazy. And how they are willing to deem women liars or suggest their opinions donít matter or tell them effectively to shut up.

Yes if every woman in history had been like that weíd all still be owned by our husbands and have no rights whatsoever.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: hellohowareyoutoday on May 06, 2018, 08:23:08 PM
Frankly, anyone who helped me and my baby emerge safely from the ordeal that was childbirth has my undying gratitude - male, female or anything in between.

What if your midwife had been a cross-dressing Hitler? Are you saying Hitler deserves our undying gratitude? I'm sorry, but I am not undyingly grateful for Hitler.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 06, 2018, 10:44:24 PM
Ohhh, where is Uncle Pants to step in with the cake?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 06, 2018, 11:40:45 PM
^ ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Musette on May 07, 2018, 12:08:13 AM
Frankly, anyone who helped me and my baby emerge safely from the ordeal that was childbirth has my undying gratitude - male, female or anything in between.

What if your midwife had been a cross-dressing Hitler? Are you saying Hitler deserves our undying gratitude? I'm sorry, but I am not undyingly grateful for Hitler.

Did I say anything about anyone else having to be grateful? All I was trying to say was that the gender of the midwife did not bother me because all they were doing was helping me.
Anyway, you mentioned Hitler. You lose.
And I bow out of this discussion; have fun.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: hellohowareyoutoday on May 07, 2018, 12:10:46 AM
I'm sorry, I just cannot worship Hitler, even if he delivers babies really, really well.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 07, 2018, 12:21:20 AM
^ ??? ??? ???

No idea either.

Kellie Maloney - trans woman who has a GRC just been on the telly saying current system should be simplified because of the excessive bureaucracy and intrusion but should not be reduced to mere self id.

Being subjected to all sorts of hate on Pink News for it but no genuine criticism dealing with why her concerns arenít valid.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 07, 2018, 10:30:48 AM
I'm sorry, I just cannot worship Hitler, even if he delivers babies really, really well.
But nobody was asking you to. Hitler was not a trans-woman or a midwife, and he has been dead for 73 years.
 If you want to have a debate, dragging Hitler into it is not a good way to lend your argument any credibility, and neither is going around making incomprehensibly weird accusations. It is possible to broadly disagree with the concept of self definition, while also acknowledging a positive experience with male midwife. Fwiw, when I went to hospital heavily in labour with my son, I donít think I would have objected to a fully trained and qualified male midwife.
Not that Iím saying that women shouldnít have the choice or that all women would be comfortable with a man, just that I wouldnít have been too fussed iether way.       
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Lust for Life on May 07, 2018, 10:44:55 AM
The midwife thing is a red herring. There are plenty of male midwives. Enough labouring women find that acceptable for them to be able to work. However, there are some women who for personal or cultural reasons would be unhappy with a male midwife. Some of those women may be unhappy with a female midwife, self declared or holding a grc, who appears to her to have been born as a man. Birthing women are generally meant to be helped to relax, as this is better for both her and the baby's health (and reduces the need for medical interventions). To be honest, I doubt if any woman in labour would be forced to accept a male midwife, or an mtf midwife, or even a female midwife who bullied her at school, or whatever. If there is an alternative available, in general then her wishes would be respected. And if there is no alternative available, she would be putting lives at risk by refusing treatment/assistance, but that's probably allowed as well, just as people are allowed to refuse blood transfusions and cancer treatment.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 07, 2018, 12:44:19 PM
I didnít follow the midwife thing at all. In terms of consent, how different is it from saying ďa woman happily consented to sex with a man and had no complaints afterwards so now all women should have to do so.Ē

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 07, 2018, 01:09:14 PM
Yup,  pointless wormhole to get sucked into and it does the debate no service whatsoever.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: kaval69 on May 07, 2018, 01:48:54 PM
I wonder how many of those women who claim they can only date/engage sexually, with someone with a vagina, would consider Transmen, or would think that they look too manly (despite most still having a vagina)
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 07, 2018, 01:57:45 PM
I wonder how many of those women who claim they can only date/engage sexually, with someone with a vagina, would consider Transmen, or would think that they look too manly (despite most still having a vagina)

ďClaim is an odd word in this context. What do you mean ďclaimĒ?

Are you suggesting they are not being truthful and you know better than them about their own sexuality? Because that is creepy as fíck.

Itís none of your business who else they want to sleep with. Personally, I wouldnít sleep with a transman because Iím into women. A trans man is not a woman by their own definition. But thatís a personal choice for me to make as an individual.

I canít see how thatís relevant to the question of whether  not sleeping with someone with a dick amounts to transphobia.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 07, 2018, 02:49:15 PM
I wonder how many of those women who claim they can only date/engage sexually, with someone with a vagina, would consider Transmen, or would think that they look too manly (despite most still having a vagina)
  And your point is?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 07, 2018, 03:15:51 PM
I canít imagine how it would prove a lesbian is not transphobic for her to have sex  with a trans man whilst  thinking of him as female because he has a vagina.

This is why it doesnít work to conflate gender and physical sex and treat them as one and the same.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 07, 2018, 03:49:32 PM
 I donít see what point there is constantly posing these Lane duck arguments, it does nothing to further the debate. Not that there is much of a debate to be had on this particular point. Itís up to the individual they choose to have sex with, and anybody who promotes the idea that it isnít is wrong and should be called out for it.
 Now can we get back to the real problem please, which is, itís wrong to influence/coerce/force people into having sex with you if they donít want to. Nobody has *ever* been vialated by somebody not having sex with them. It maybe upsetting but itís *not* the same.   
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 07, 2018, 03:58:43 PM
Itís the same pattern coming up again and again.

1. Women who say their sexual orientation precludes them from having sex wth biologically male forms are lieing.

2. Womenís sexual preferences are someone elseís political property to label and define .

3. A womenís consent to give access to her own body cannot simply be given or withheld by her. It must be justified with rational argument that can be dismissed by others if they find it not compelling or supportive of THIER interests.

The existence of lesbians and how these arguments are being targeted at them makes this abusive process more visible.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 07, 2018, 05:18:01 PM
Yup, misogyny and entitlement in aadifferent outfittt
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Grey on May 07, 2018, 06:17:12 PM
^^This...exactly
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 07, 2018, 09:16:47 PM
I'm very concerned to see Mumsnet have caved to the trans activists and banning many posters for life for stating biological facts.
It feels like nothing is enough for the TRAs. Breastfeeding should be chestfeeding - seriously f**K off with this nonsense.
Pregnant people not women.
How long before women can't even discuss motherhood without being called transphobic?

I think the only thing to do is speak however you want and incur the wrath. I just wish that organisations would not bend over to accommodate this rubbish. Words mean something and I won't sign a form that asks me my gender when it means sex
. On the Labour Party forum this week a man was telling a woman she could not call herself a woman because she said she did not identify as one, but she just was a woman and to identify with a gender was to be compliant in her own oppression. He told her she could only call herself XX.because if she just said woman she had to accept her gender was assigned at birth.
 I could hardly believe what I was reading it was such claptrap mansplaining bollox.

That nonsense has to be called out but she was piled on the and a lone voice. Dreadful.

There are no laws about the right  not to be offended are there?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Trifle on May 07, 2018, 09:38:11 PM
Ugh, that sounds really bad. Iíve never really been on mums net but I read a bit the other day when I was looking at the guardian letter and there was a transsexual woman saying you can never change your biological sex, so I wonder how theyíre squaring that with banning women stating biological facts. Or maybe theyíve banned the transsexual woman as well.  :-\
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 07, 2018, 11:49:39 PM
I don't get this Mumsnet ban stuff.  I've never even been moderated.  It can't be that hard.  OTOH Posie Parker's post comparing trans activists to PIE stayed up till I reported it.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Marty. on May 07, 2018, 11:51:00 PM
There was a programme on Channel 4 tonight called Genderquake. It was about 11 people of different gender identities living in a house together.

Needless to say, there were arguments.

 ::)
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 08, 2018, 12:06:52 AM
Never been on it. I think itís a shame if a site that was intended as a place for parents to talk to other parents has become a battleground for non parent activists and bored devils advocates on trans issues. The reason I have been cheered by talk of it is because the actual mums are not getting sucked into the navel gazing LGBT splits in politics that go back to the ď80s and are coming at it from a perspective that is grounded in their reality. Which is healthy.

The idea that the same old protagonists are just site surfing with their political baggage in tow and messing up some one elseís site, is just depressing.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 08, 2018, 12:29:09 AM
Yeah, I wasn't sure of the legitimacy at first but it turns out they explicitly welcome non-parents too and aren't the poorer for it.

And I've left it a few years but I'm finally going to register my irritation at "bored" being used as a criticism on here. Of course I'm fucking bored.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 08, 2018, 12:56:34 AM
The women of mumsnet have mostly been radicalised by childbirth and parenting. Their gender critical journey seems to have started with issues about the transing of children.
I've only read it for 6months but they seem to have had periods of invasion onto their feminist boards of men's rights activists and families need fathers style groups.
So they seem to have spotted trans rights activists behaviour and pushed back at them. However the mods have got cold feet and are actually listening to a transactivist twitter hashtag that asks TRAs to read everything on mumsnet and report to them. An orchestrated attempted shut down.
They want to stop every attempt at discussion that's not by them.

The transexuals who signed a letter in the guardian saying they don't want self id are being pilloried. They are so bloody brave.
I've never seen such goings on.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 08, 2018, 12:57:08 AM
Yeah, I wasn't sure of the legitimacy at first but it turns out they explicitly welcome non-parents too and aren't the poorer for it.

And I've left it a few years but I'm finally going to register my irritation at "bored" being used as a criticism on here. Of course I'm fucking bored.

They may do from the point of advertising revenue but itís still chronically sad if itís become skewed from its original focus by the vexatious non parent campaigner/habitual commentator finding yet another venue to grind their axe in. Itís obvious from everything on the mainframe that itís still aimed at parents and not meant to be a free for all for anyone with a bag of opinions and nowhere to land them.

I donít think ďboredĒ is as much a criticism as a perspective indicator and frames your comment on Mumsnet not being nuanced or entertaining enough for you.

I donít like some of Posie Parkerís posts that Iíve seen in other places. In fact, some I deeply dislike and other things she said made complete sense. But at least on Mumsnet when she is speaking as a parent on a Forum intended for parents about issues relevant to parenting, her voice is more authentic if not always right than someone who just wandered in for the craic.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 08, 2018, 02:10:44 AM

They may do from the point of advertising revenue but itís still chronically sad if itís become skewed from its original focus by the vexatious non parent campaigner/habitual commentator finding yet another venue to grind their axe in. Itís obvious from everything on the mainframe that itís still aimed at parents and not meant to be a free for all for anyone with a bag of opinions and nowhere to land them.

I donít think ďboredĒ is as much a criticism as a perspective indicator and frames your comment on Mumsnet not being nuanced or entertaining enough for you.

I didn't say anything about entertainment.  Mumsnet is plenty entertaining, even as a lurker.  It's not in GB's league for nuance though. The reason I don't get banned its probably because I never commit to a strident opinion on anything.  And these people are not talking about parenting.   Children are barely mentioned on the feminist boards.

"Bored" is a term you frequently use that I find dismissive and ad hominem.  You're not qualified to judge when I'm bored or not and how it affects me.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 08, 2018, 07:52:44 AM
What I meant, Wolfie, is that was mumsnetters way in to the trans issue, no it isn't their focus now, but why should it be?
Women don't just have opinions about babies and children.
It's interesting that men's groups don't seem to be talking about trans issues... Probably because they're not being asked to budge up and give up their space.

Though interestingly the men in Somerville Oxford have had a dirty protest about gender neutral loos.
They've pissed all over the floor demanding their urinals back.
I wonder if they will.

Also disabled charities are pissed off that their facilities in an Irish University (can't remember which right now as rushing off to work) have all been made gender neutral.
I'm glad to see people waking up to the unfairness of this situation. Less than 1% of the population disrupting everyone else.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 08, 2018, 08:38:42 AM
Wolfie, nope. Not going down that rabbit hole with you. There is a perfectly valid reason that I am talking about political boredom in this context.

The Courts have a useful determinant called Locus Standi. Like ad hominem is has a perfectly good English equivalent that everyone can comprehend. Its called ďstandingĒ Ė there are people with ďstandingĒ who they will hear on an issue because they are sufficiently vested in the outcome or harmed by the problem to justify having a say in the issue. And there are people without standing who they deem have no sufficient reason to get involved. This is to exclude the vexatious and bored who just like to stick their oar in by way of self- amusement. So someone who has never been further south than Carlisle, spouting off on a forum for people affected by pot holes on the M25 for instance, middle class Americans trying to dictate who gets to speak at a Working Class Library in Salford, UK, men rights activisits purporting to side with one feminist faction against the other in the pretence that they are acting in furtherance of womens rights.

Trans activism is particularly reflective of this issue because a tiny minority of people who may be students or privately incomed or long-term unemployed with a commitment to political activism, but with seemingly unlimited time on their hands, flock from forum to forum and back again, day and night, obsessing and hounding anyone who disagrees with them. And they look like a huge force but in reality, they are a small, over-sounding bunch of obsessives. After hounding and threatening the Working Class Movement Library in great numbers for weeks about 8 of them turned up, quite bedraggled, to protest it on the night. I bare in mind that a large percentage of them don't even appear to be trans - but deem themselves trans allies. They are activists around trans issue rather than trans people engaging in political activism. As Sorted said, a lot of them on Twitter are brocialists.

So if I went to a forum for Nicaraguan students in England I would hope to glean an indication of what Nicaraguan students felt. If I went to the Working Class Movement Forum I would expect to glean how working class people felt. If I went to Gingerbeer I would hope to get an impression of what lesbians and queers thought. If I went to Mumsnet, I would hope to get an impression of what Mums felt, including the divides and the factions. But increasingly wherever one goes we are getting the voice of the same people who are just very mobile, flitting from forum to forum, making the exact same views seem more widespread then they are. And to the extent that feminists protesting the GRA amendments are doing the same thing, I would be disappointed in the exact same way. Its not only skewing the political debate and being oppressive to the people who are being targeted by them but the seemingly endless amount of time available to them and the lack of a requirement to focus on anything else in life means they are not being grounded by reality, like the common reality of caring and negotiating busy schedules that Mums commonly have to face, or the pot holes that a M25 user might have to negotiate. Realities that make a point of view relevant and informed. So to me, its important that we are able to hear the relevant and informed views of Mums reacting to the proposed changes of the GRA and how it affects them and the debate not be clouded by those with an opinion who are simply willing to land it wherever they can.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Lust for Life on May 08, 2018, 08:54:24 AM
Great post, but did you mean South (of Carliske)?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 08, 2018, 08:59:11 AM
Yeah, thanks LFL. Amended.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Trifle on May 08, 2018, 09:57:05 AM
Like I said, Iíve never beeen on mumís net until reading it for a few minutes the other day when looking at the guardian letter. But I have met some gender critical women from there who are mums and they were more than capable of a nuanced and intelligent argument. And contrary to popular belief they were concerned about trans peopleís rights too. I donít really like personal anecdotes as proof of anything that concerns a large group but it certainly made me a lot more concerned about all the slurs that they are supposedly transphobic as it seemed very far removed from the reality I experienced.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 08, 2018, 10:19:20 AM
Yes, Trifle and I think that's why this original post was highly relevant because it shows how willing transactivists are to label someone "transphobic" on the most spurious grounds.

I haven't seen one person on this thread justify the label "transphobic" for a lesbian who is not into penis sex. People have suggested they could be considered inconsistent or rude to point it out but no one has agreed that it amounted to transphobia.

And yet we've seen  people's businesses targeted by hate campaigns, their employment threatened, them being denied a platform to speak and venue bookings cancelled on the mere allegation that the person or organisation is labelled as transphobic when under examination it boils down to nothing of the sort.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 08, 2018, 10:35:09 AM
The thing is, the MN FWR board has designated itself the headquarters of the gender critical resistance and is thus not representative plus has exceeded the remit of a parenting site.  I'm pretty sure that if you got a cross section of mums to talk about their feminist concerns it wouldn't be 90%> trans issues.  It *is* a cluster of feminists protesting the GRA amendments, and plenty of other MNers don't go in there because if you even question them they are inclined to assume bad faith.   

At least have a look at it if you're going to argue about that or tell me that my own objections stem from them not being entertaining enough.  I've gone to great and frequently very frustrating lengths to try and find some shared values with these people.  Occasionally it's even worked.  And if you can tell me a perfectly good English equivalent to ad hominem that's quicker to type I'll use it.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Trifle on May 08, 2018, 10:45:58 AM
Betty - Yes, very concerning how reality can be rewritten and used to condemn assisted by the fantasy island of the internet. I think this is the most underhand and oppressive movement against women Iíve ever witnessed unfolding first hand. Perhaps I was still clinging on to a sliver of naivity before but I have been a bit shocked by just how skewed and manipulated things have been.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 08, 2018, 10:52:45 AM
Betty - Yes, very concerning how reality can be rewritten and used to condemn assisted by the fantasy island of the internet. I think this is the most underhand and oppressive movement against women Iíve ever witnessed unfolding first hand. Perhaps I was still clinging on to a sliver of naivity before but I have been a bit shocked by just how skewed and manipulated things have been.

I think so too. When we fought for lesbian and gay rights we had to be persuasive, well informed and prepared to engage in debate. We didn't just try and bar everyone else from the planet.

Wolfie, the reason that seems to be is because no where else is allowing them to debate their interest in the GRA - which is an indictment of how consultation has been carried out, in itself.

Ad hominem usually means  "personal attack".
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Plus One on May 08, 2018, 02:07:18 PM
If someone's telling me I should like dicks, then the door is open for me to say I don't. We didn't light the fire.

Did someone tell you that you should like dick or is that part of the way in which trans women are being presented as predators?

Itís like the mural that Jezza liked, with the hook nosed financiers playing games on the back of the working poor. We all know that itís anti Semitic, at the same time as knowing that some Jewish people work in finance. Itís a trope thatís used to demonise Jewish people, in the same way that the cotton ceiling is a trope used to demonise trans women.

Don't blur the lines of what I'm saying, you know what we're talking about and pretending you don't isn't very helpful. I don't think transwomen are predatory, I do think some men are, and those men will happily exploit any opportunity presented and some people seem to want that open door through self-IDing regardless of any impact on women, that is the discussion. But you know that already.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Plus One on May 08, 2018, 02:33:48 PM
Here's some light relief.

A short talk by a transwoman on her experience of living as man and a woman.


https://upliftconnect.com/ive-lived-as-a-man-and-a-woman-heres-what-ive-learned/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=unify

We need a few more sane voices like hers to be heard.


Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Trifle on May 08, 2018, 03:48:55 PM
^^ Yes indeed, the rise of narcissism.

So if mumsnet are being shut down, who is speaking against this? And how do we help?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 08, 2018, 06:38:16 PM
I think so too. When we fought for lesbian and gay rights we had to be persuasive, well informed and prepared to engage in debate. We didn't just try and bar everyone else from the planet.

Wolfie, the reason that seems to be is because no where else is allowing them to debate their interest in the GRA - which is an indictment of how consultation has been carried out, in itself.

Ad hominem usually means  "personal attack".

I understand that, I really do.  Hwvr, GC is the dominant group on there and does most of the things they're fighting back at.  I've been told by a bunch of them that a concern I raised "so wasn't significant or important" and that I wasn't entitled to draw any inferences from a fact.

And to come full circle on this thread: on the MN Genderquake thread, someone talking about the lesbian fancying the (post-op, for the record) transwoman is saying, 

"The lesbian is not a lesbian but a bisexual. It makes no sense to say labels are not important when she chooses to identify as a female then becomes sexually atracted to a male. That means shes not a lesbian and it can be damaging to lesbians to be portayed as womwn who can be swayed by feminised men."

I might grant you that telling a lesbian she must consider fancying somebody with a dick is more patriarchally oppressive than telling her she can't consider fancying somebody with no dick,  and I do know it's Not All Mumsnetters, but all this stuff works both ways for me.


Hmm, I think "playing the man and not the ball" would be closer to my meaning and it's longer. :)
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 08, 2018, 07:13:22 PM
Thatís the sort of stuff that would go on on here though.

The difference is that a third person labelling another bisexual rather than lesbian is not going to get the person who is labelled that way politically or socially ostracised, sacked, no platformed or arrested.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 08, 2018, 09:41:19 PM
 This is an article published on the Independent, which includes an open letter from a group of TRAs objecting to the Channel 4 Gender Quake debate this evening.
https://www.indy100.com/indy100/article/genderquake-the-debate-transphobia-channel-4-open-letter-campaigners-germaine-greer-8341481
 Iím not quite sure what theyĎre objecting to. Surely a debate on national television is an excellent opportunity to get their opinions heard? From what Iíve read the panel will consist of both trans-activists, and gender critical voices. If itís just because of Germaine Greer then wouldnít the logical thing to do be to just face her out, or is it because they are frightened that if their arguments are brought into the light, people might start asking questions and they might no longer be able to bully and silence people?  Either way I doubt it will be boring with Germaine Greer on the panel. Itís anybodyís guess what sheíll come out with nowadays.     
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 08, 2018, 09:43:53 PM
That's just one stupid comment in one mumsnet thread, Wolfie.
It certainly isn't reflective of most posters.

I am shocked that you think Mumsnet has gone beyond its remit as a parenting website. How very condescending.
Any message board can discuss anything.. What's happened is that the MRA and trans movement has politicised a whole group of women through mumsnet. Every day I read women on there who say they've started reading and have realised they are radical feminists. That their eyes were opened for the first time.
It's bloody brilliant.
So many of the women posting on there are intellectually rigorous and well informed. They aren't there for entertainment. They believe and so do I that there is not much time or nothing more important than protecting the sex based rights of women and girls and gatekeeping.

Trifle, although some people have been banned there are hundreds who aren't. I think it will survive as a board even though they are being censored.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 08, 2018, 10:28:08 PM
That's one stupid comment, Wolfie.

I am shocked that you think Mumsnet has gone beyond its remit as a parenting website. How very condescending.
Any message board can discuss anything.. What's happened is that the MRA and trans movement has politicised a whole group of women through mumsnet. Every day I read women on there who say they've started reading and have realised they are radical feminists. That their eyes were opened for the first time.
It's bloody brilliant.
So many of the women posting on there are intellectually rigorous and well informed. They aren't there for entertainment. They believe and so do I that there is not much time or nothing more important than protecting the sex based rights of women and girls and gatekeeping..

I was responding to Betty's saying that non-parents on there are interlopers who render it unrepresentative and saying that afaik that ship has already sailed off the FWR boards and they were entirely comfortable with it.

I'd agree I'm allowed to post on there by favour whereas you're there by right.  But since they welcome childless people agreeing with them they should tolerate childless people questioning them, given that it isn't explictly a gender critical campaigning board.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 08, 2018, 10:53:34 PM
There's quite a number of women and transwomen who don't agree on the feminism boards.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 08, 2018, 11:34:18 PM
 I thought Iíd have a look at that Gender Quake thing. I managed less than 10 minutes before I got angry and couldnít watch it any more. Its fucking scary. 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Plus One on May 09, 2018, 12:12:06 AM
Quote
And to come full circle on this thread: on the MN Genderquake thread, someone talking about the lesbian fancying the (post-op, for the record) transwoman is saying, 

"The lesbian is not a lesbian but a bisexual. It makes no sense to say labels are not important when she chooses to identify as a female then becomes sexually atracted to a male. That means shes not a lesbian and it can be damaging to lesbians to be portayed as womwn who can be swayed by feminised men."

I might grant you that telling a lesbian she must consider fancying somebody with a dick is more patriarchally oppressive than telling her she can't consider fancying somebody with no dick,  and I do know it's Not All Mumsnetters, but all this stuff works both ways for me.


Hmm, I think "playing the man and not the ball" would be closer to my meaning and it's longer. :)

I don't think the two can be equated tbh Wolfgang.

That debate is not about who that woman fancies, it's about keeping a label with a definition of "woman liking women" when she is dating a male. It would be the same if she were dating a man with a dick. That's he's a transman might have some relevance to her in her own labelling but presumably she's not suggesting he's still a woman, or a lesbian, she's redefining 'lesbian' not redefining gender.

To suggest that people are telling lesbians who they 'shouldn't fancy' is putting the cart before the horse. It's not what a lesbian should or shouldn't do with her sex life, it's about whether a woman dating a man should call herself a lesbian. That's a label debate not a trans debate.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 09, 2018, 12:30:22 AM
Ten minutes in to the Genderquake debate.

Am I right in thinking the panel is made up of trans and other women, one female bodied gender queer woman and a trans man?

Speaks volumes that men other than men who have transitioned from female in the first place are not interested or deemed affected by these issues.

Itís a really badly chaired debate with Monro Big Gob being given full reign to speak over anyone whose turn it was to speak.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 09, 2018, 01:04:21 AM
It was awful.
The Rad Fems in the audience shouldn't have heckled but as Sarah Ditum kept being spoken over, they were frustrated.
Greer was asked three times about a quote but Munroe wasn't asked about her previous offensive remarks about gays.
It was unbalanced and Newman was fawning over Jenner who just waffled and acted it was like a chat show.

Ditum was great.
Small mercies.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 09, 2018, 01:08:05 AM
@Plus one I'm talking about a lesbian fancying a transwoman, not a transman...
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 09, 2018, 01:21:28 AM
I doubt they would have been shouting if it wasnít so one sided. I donít think anyone watching that would have learnt anything about the pros and cons of the proposed GRA legislation. Sarah tried to explain the objections and wasnít given any time whilst being constantly shouted over. Germaine was just foggy and obscure and looked like she wanted to be at home watering her tomato plants.

The chair was poor and didnít have a grasp of the issues but also it was obvious she was bending over backwards to appease the trans people on the panel none of whom were gender critical. There were a number of gender critical trans people they could have invited for balance but they werenít aiming for balance. It was obviously a compromise to try and get those trans panelists to take part and defy the whip issued by the TRAís that no trans people should participate as questioning the new GRA is questioning their very right to exist which is just self indulgent Alice in Wonderland style thinking. But their blackmail stance meant they most have had to make so many compromises and factor in so much unfairness in selecting the other panelists that Sarah was pretty much a lone voice against fawning presenter and a panel that were handpicked to concur on the new GRA being unproblematic.

When Jenner sat there with that huge physical frame and stated there was no advantage to trans gendered women in sports, it typified the Planet Janet lack of reality underpinning it all.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Trifle on May 09, 2018, 09:40:31 AM
Good to hear, Blythe.

Iíve not watched gender quake yet but iím not surprised to hear you are all less than impressed.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 09, 2018, 09:51:38 AM
 From what I could bear to watch, SD didnít manage to finish a single point before being shouted over by MB, CJ was given free reign to waffle on at length in that slow, annoying drawl, like sheíd been paid a great deal of money and promised a certain amount of air time, and the chair was clearly biased. I didnít even hear GG speak, but from what I understand, when she did she was mercilessly grilled about her statement that trans-women arenít really women, without actually being given the chance to explain. GG is 80, and sheís already stated that trans-issues arenít really her thing. What was the point of getting an elderly woman on there just to shout at her? Also I understand that the trans-man didnít speak except to confirm his pronouns,  and what was the point of even having an audience if they werenít going to be heard? 
 Such a shame, if Channel 4 had any honourable intentions about staging this debate which turned out to be nothing of the sort, they allowed themselves to be bullied and blackmailed. Anybody watching that who wasnít keeping up with this issue will probably be none the wiser this morning, in fact they probably wouldíve just got annoyed with the terrible format and switched it over.
 Iím one of these people who is quite willing to be persuaded by a good argument and quite happy to change my mind, but what I saw last night certainly didnít provide me with that opportunity. If anything it just reinforced what I already think. It was a disgrace and Channel 4 should be ashamed of themselves. It wasnít a debate it was a set up. Iíve seen playground arguments conducted more equitably than that.       
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 09, 2018, 12:05:36 PM
Germaine Greer giving a quite dusty and not instantly relatable example (she's 80 - its not her fault) of the forced socialisation of women into femininity by talking about how being tall meant she never learned to dance backwards as she was forced to take the "male" part in dance lessons at school.

Caitlyn Jenner "I was dsylexic, we've all got our crosses to bear".

Completely missing the point that its not the social disability olympics. Its an illustration of the toxic culture of gender.

It should have been rebilled as "Caitlyn Jenner - I'm not sure if you're familiar with my life story." Oh go, on then, Caitlyn. Do tell.

Its obvious Channel 4 have shipped her over at great cost for that Parliamentary address and have built PR events like this to get their money's worth. All because she's a Kardashian who knows Trump.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 09, 2018, 07:41:48 PM

... Sarah was pretty much a lone voice against fawning presenter and a panel that were handpicked to concur on the new GRA being unproblematic.


I know that youíre intrested in keeping a Ďdebateí going on the reforms to the GRA but itís not what last nightís show (I canít bring myself to even pretend it was a debate) was about. The showís title didnít mention legal reforms, thr press release didnít mention legal reforms, none of the season is about legal reforms but you imagine that because you want to discuss these reforms, everyone else has some kind of responsibility to.

As Iíve said before, Maria Millerís consultation took submissions from 207 individuals and groups. The government have committed to a public consultation about the reforms. There is no lack of chatter about the reforms but you canít get miffed at Channel 4 for, not holding a debate about a subject you expected when they never claimed that they were.

More broadly, CJ was awful, Iíve taken a Morrissey approach to GG and pretend that she died in around 1987, so I can still enjoy her earlier work and can pretend that she hasnít done everything sheís done recently.

Sarah is an interesting study in confirmation bias for me. We both take the same information about the prescription hormones following, puberty blockers, I conclude that it shows that puberty blockers arenít prescribed lightly and she concludes that itís because there is a conspiracy going on. I laugh at the dea of the NHS seeing to guarantee a supply of patients but I suppose I have to concede that there was no shortage of nutters to hang around Alder Hey, pretending to know more that real doctors. Iím disappointed that Sarah has become one of their number.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 09, 2018, 08:06:54 PM

The Rad Fems in the audience shouldn't have heckled but as Sarah Ditum kept being spoken over, they were frustrated

Could you just not do this? Could you please just not conflate TERFS and Radical Feminists? Radical Feminists coined the term TERF to distance themselves from exclusionists who wanted to centre their Ďfeminismí around trans people, rather than around women. Obsessing over what over people have in their pants is the diametric opposit of what Radical Feminism is about.

Go and read some Dworkin.

I'm going to ask you to remember the prostituted, the homeless, the battered, the raped, the tortured, the murdered, the raped-then-murdered, the murdered-then-raped; and I am going to ask you to remember the photographed, the ones that any or all of the above happened to and it was photographed and now the photographs are for sale in our free countries. I want you to think about those who have been hurt for the fun, the entertainment, the so called speech of others; those who have been hurt for profit, for the financial benefit of pimps and entrepreneurs. I want you to remember the perpetrator and I am going to ask you to remember the victims, not just tonight but tomorrow and the next day. I want you to find a way to include them, the perpetrators and the victims, in what you do, how you think, how you act, what you care about, what your life means to you.


Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 09, 2018, 09:02:04 PM
I'm calling them radical feminists because that's what those individual women call themselves.
I've met four out of the five in the row where the heckling came from.
I'm respecting how they like to be referred to.
I'm not condoning their shouting though.

The whole thing was a shambles but looks like it was designed to be.
First off the Mayday women were asked to be on the panel and then two of the panelists vetoed them. Then they were told they could comment from the floor, then they were told that was also vetoed. I suspect their anger boiled over.
I don't think shouting penis is ever going to win an argument.

Top,
I'm going to find the list of groups consulted because it's my understanding that women's groups weren't.
I know that plenty of trans groups were.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 09, 2018, 09:49:31 PM
I'm calling them radical feminists because that's what those individual women call themselves
.

Can you not see the rank hypocrisy of allowing those women to co opt a name that already belongs to another group, while moaning about trans women calling themselves lesbians? As someone who thinks along the queer theorist line, Iíd be the first to admit that gender is complicated and quite nebulous but Radical Feminism isnít, itís a very distinct line of political thought and one they donít follow or even seem to understand. ĎPenisí shouter last night took her husbandís name when she married, an actual rad fem would eat her alive, when sheíd finished laughing.


Quote
First off the Mayday women were asked to be on the panel and then two of the panelists vetoed them.


I donít think thatís true. Iím not calling you a liar, I know itís what theyíre claiming but after their behaviour at the womenís FA Cup Final at the weekend, which was condemned by the Football Association themselves and just about every other sporting organisation, I donít think that any producer who still wanted a job the following day would have waited for the panel to complain and I most certainly donít think that the fresh off her private jet, Ms Jenner, would have heard of them.

 
Quote
I suspect their anger boiled over.

I think that we all know what itís like to be angry, most of us manage not to behave like a transphobic drunk in a bus station.

Quote
I'm going to find the list of groups consulted because it's my understanding that women's groups weren't.

From the top of my head, Rape Crisis, Womens Aid, The Scottish Feminist Alliance and even Shelia fucking Jefferies was consulted. Just as importantly, groups who actually deal with the issues raised were also consulted, sporting bodies, the Prison Service, the probation service, the organisation of medical professionals who deal with prisoners, etc. etc. etc.  Iím sure youíll find the document.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 09, 2018, 10:30:50 PM
No women's group was invited to be heard in front of the committee. Sheila Jeffrey  was invited to write as was Miranda Yardley.
There were numerous trans groups invited to be heard.

Here is the list.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmselect/cmwomeq/390/39013.htm#_idTextAnchor004

Most if not all those groups support self id. So no dissent in the hearings then... Mermaids...

 Well Mermaids supports the medicalisation of children through hormones and encourages surgery before the age of 18. The founder took her child to have their penis removed on their 16th birthday in Thailand because it was illegal here.
Their literature and stalls reek of promotion and recruitment. They should have all their funding removed and shouldn't be advising anyone and allowed nowhere near children.

Edited for strange spelling due to weird computer behaviour.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: sisu on May 09, 2018, 10:38:54 PM
^^ you got there first :)

Every transactivist group under the sun was invited to give witness evidence - stonewall, mermaids, gendered intelligence etc and Stephen Whittle, instrumental in construction of 2004 Gender Recognition Act was personally thanked at the beginning of the report. 

Women's interest groups were categorically not invited to give witnesses evidence in person to the Commission.  Laughable if it weren't also true or the implications for women and children so serious. 

Here's a link to Jeffrey's written report reference the omission of women's interests by the inquiry - worth a quick read if you have a minute:  http://data.parliament.uk/WrittenEvidence/CommitteeEvidence.svc/EvidenceDocument/Women%20and%20Equalities/Transgender%20Equality/written/19512.html

Looks to me like women have been saying the same thing over and over again but read the report and it's clear no-one is taking a blind bit notice.  Here's a summary from Stephanie Davies-Arai who is particularly concerned about trans-ing kids: http://data.parliament.uk/WrittenEvidence/CommitteeEvidence.svc/EvidenceDocument/Women%20and%20Equalities/Transgender%20Equality/written/19445.html
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 09, 2018, 10:40:13 PM
And here is the brilliant Sheila Jeffrey's written submission.

It states the problem perfectly.
When these points are put to most ordinary people they can see that there is a clash of rights with self id and women lose.
That is not acceptable.



http://data.parliament.uk/WrittenEvidence/CommitteeEvidence.svc/EvidenceDocument/Women%20and%20Equalities/Transgender%20Equality/written/19512.html
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 09, 2018, 10:47:23 PM
Ha!


I suspect the Tories have got cold feet and will shuffle the bill off and deliberately run out of time.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 09, 2018, 11:17:26 PM
Sarah was directly asked about opposition to the proposed GRA legislation and got shouted over when she tried to answer. Nothing to do with me trying to keep a debate going that no one else is interested in. It was something she was asked on the show.

Sheís right that there are medical professionals making a killing out of transition. She wasnít restricting that to the NHS work they do. You can pay privately to avoid restrictions the NHS deems applicable.

Iíve got no shares in the ďradicalĒ feminist characterisation debate. Itís not a label I would apply to myself but even me and Jenny Murray would probably get labelled as it by a bunch of people so obsessed with what they see as an overriding right to self definition yet think they also have right to define everyone else. The word radical is being used by some in the sense of ďfrom the rootĒ rather than in the sense of a dramatic departure. No one owns the term. But if you think self definition is top trumps as a principle you canít go second guessing other peopleís self labelling.

Blythe is right about lack of consultation and womensí voices. Even where women and prisons and other agencies were consulted it was from the point of view of how they thought the proposed legislation would impact on trans people not on how it would impact on women.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 10, 2018, 12:43:31 AM
No women's group was invited to be heard in front of the committee. Sheila Jeffrey  was invited to write as was Miranda Yardley.
There were numerous trans groups invited to be heard
.


No offence but you obviously donít understand how government committees work, inviting written submissions is normal and to pretend that a group hasnít been consulted because they their submission was written is just weird.

Hereís the full report, I was wrong about the number of submissions, itís over 250.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmselect/cmwomeq/390/390.pdf][url]https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmselect/cmwomeq/390/390.pdf (http://[url)[/url]

Youíve shared Jefferies submission, which was part of the report and then gone on to claim that she wasnít consulted. Can you not see the contradiction in that?

Quote
Most if not all those groups support self id. So no dissent in the hearings then

There wouldnít have been any dissent at the hearings because there is no debate, itís a process of questioning people. Debate happens in the chamber between elected MPs, thatís how democracy works.



Quote
Well Mermaids supports the medicalisation of children through hormones and encourages surgery before the age of 18. The founder took her child to have their penis removed on their 16th birthday in Thailand because it was illegal here.

Now that we done democracy, Iíll explain how the medical system works in the U.K. We have a system whereby doctors prescribe meds, not support groups. Children whoís GPs think they have gender identity disorders are referred to gender identity clinics, where they are seen when the reach the top of a two year waiting list.

Then they are assessed by competent medical professionals, according to thr Tavistock website, children with GIDs are seen by an average of six medical professional during assessment, consultant psychiatrists, psychologists, endocrinologists etc.

They are seen for an average of six sessions, after which the majority are discharged without further treatment. Those prescribed drugs to delay puberty are only do so in extream circumstances.

No child is given cross hormone treatment under the age of 16 and no one is given surgery before 18 and even 18 is pretty rare because the child service doesnít provide surgery, so there is another waiting list for the adult service.

Helenís child bypassed this process becasue Helen was afraid her child was going to kill herself. Sheís recieved a lot of grief for it but she now has a happy, healthy daughter who is doing well by all accounts. Something most parents aspire to, Iíd imagine.

Helenís decision was far less statistically common than a parent beating their child to death but she still gets more abuse from TERFS than most child killers. I wonít pretend to understand that.

Quote
Their literature and stalls reek of promotion and recruitment. They should have all their funding removed and shouldn't be advising anyone and allowed nowhere near children.

That a bit Section 28, in fact thatís exactly what used to be said about any group telling kids gay kids that it was alright to be gay. Itís fucking tragic that you havenít moved on.

The idea that a support group or parent could could promote being trans gendered to a child is ludicrous, most parents canít reach the heady heights of getting their children to tidy their rooms or put down their phones.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 10, 2018, 01:01:42 AM

Sheís right that there are medical professionals making a killing out of transition. She wasnít restricting that to the NHS work they do. You can pay privately to avoid restrictions the NHS deems applicable
.

Who, how much, whereís the evidence?

All I read from TERFS is that the majority of trans people donít have any treatment. They state again and again, in an obsessive loop, that trans women ARENíT having surgery. So what is the cash being spent on?

The feminising drug taken by trans women seems to make a net profit for the NHS, ie itís cheaper than the prescription charge, Iím not seeing much of a profit in that so will you talk me through it?

Quote
Iíve got no shares in the ďradicalĒ feminist characterisation debate. Itís not a label I would apply to myself but even me and Jenny Murray would probably get labelled as it by a bunch of people so obsessed with what they see as an overriding right to self definition yet think they also have right to define everyone else.

Iím very much trying to separate my Radical Feminist sisters from the TERFS, thereís some sense in the Rad Fem dogma and I wouldnít want to see it tainted by people who donít centre women in their feminism.


Quote
The word radical is being used by some in the sense of ďfrom the rootĒ rather than in the sense of a dramatic departure. No one owns the term. But if you think self definition is top trumps as a principle you canít go second guessing other peopleís self labelling.

It has always been used in that sense. Being the pants police is a very radical departure from its true meaning. Really, Iíd just like a bit of consistency on the self labelling, either people get to do it or they donít but if they donít, Iíd like Rad Fem back, please.

Quote
Blythe is right about lack of consultation and womensí voices. Even where women and prisons and other agencies were consulted it was from the point of view of how they thought the proposed legislation would impact on trans people not on how it would impact on women.

We went through this a few pages up. I think Iíve pointed out before that when people have Ďgenuine concernsí they usually want those concerns address because theyíre worried. They donít have those concern address, ignore the comfort their given and then bring them up again a few days later. That seems much more like trying to push an agenda than air a Ďconcerní. 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 10, 2018, 01:18:57 AM
The suggestion that you or anyone else has addressed or made any compelling points to deal with womens concerns on this issue is for the reader to determine. Personally Iíve seen zilch and the debate will go on as it should, with or without the permission of anyone who wants to silence it and misrepresent those who disagree with them. And you donít even live in the jurisdiction where the proposed legislation would be implemented so while we are lecturing other people on democracy, self determination, correct procedure etc ....enough said.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 10, 2018, 10:28:58 AM
This is the Manifesto of Trans Rights ("Trans Rights are Human Rights remember") drafted by the Edinburgh branch of Acton for Trans Health.

Action for Trans Health advised the Parliamentary Select Committee on Transgender Equalities during the consultation in 2015.

https://edinburghath.tumblr.com (https://edinburghath.tumblr.com)

It demands a lot of things as rights.

It demands "the immediate release & pardon for all trans prisoners" - presumably if they break the law again, they get instantly released again. This demand has since been removed from more recent versions as has "We demand the the abolition of all borders and police".

It demands the "Indefinite right to remain and recourse to public funding for anyone trans seeking asylum or immigration to the UK;

It demands the total abolition of "the clinic, of psychiatry, and of the medical-industrial complex".

"An end to capitalist & colonialist ďmedicineĒ.

"The revocation of medical licenses from all gender clinic doctors & nurses"

"The power to hold abusers of medical & administrative power accountable for historical & present injustices". (So that nurse who once told them to come back when they had an appointment is to be hung, drawn and stripped of her pension).

They demand as of right a myriad of services, drugs and procedures all of which must be made available free of charge.

Including free voice coaching which is sensitive to the person's accent.

Trans people to be entirely educated by trans people in schools, colleges and universities;

An end to birth certificates and legal gender;

Full and unlimited funding for medical training for trans people and for full funding for libraries and research centres for trans gender research run by trans people;

Unlimited therapies or any type which must come to them and be delivered at drop in centres,

Free hormones and puberty blockers made available over the counter on demand at any age and for people to decide their own dosage.

The right to unlimited surgeries free of charge with no surgical pre-assessment necessary or medical veto.

Unlimited hair removal anywhere on their bodies with an option of free anaethesic if they want it whilst the hair is being removed. (Talk about no pain no gain)

Anonymous free blood testing.

And a load of other entitled old nose hair. that they won't be paying for.

So "trans rights are human rights" remember. Failure of any Government to provide this lot and Amnesty will be getting involved.

Puts any suggestion of extremism by so called radical feminists in perspective.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 10, 2018, 01:07:30 PM
 As if!
They want full access to free medicine and treatment, yet if I want a liquid level indicator to make a cup of tea,  or a talking watch to know the time,  or a screen reader to access my universal credit account which is only online,  I have to pay.  And anyway, if all colonialist and capitalist medicine is abolished, where are all these hormone treatments and puberty blockers coming from? Presumably there are no gender specific crimes. What ever was a crime for a man would still have been a crime for a woman. Borders and police, thatís just nonsense.   
 I know you should set your price high and come down but thatís ridiculous. How is anybody supposed to take it seriously?
   Oh and for the record BCFC, Iím glad youíre continuing the conversation. I happen to think that itís of great importance.   
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 10, 2018, 11:39:17 PM
And you donít even live in the jurisdiction where the proposed legislation would be implemented so while we are lecturing other people on democracy, self determination, correct procedure etc ....enough said.

You really donít like disagreement, do you? I found that a lot eith thr trans debate, TERFS seems to have a great love for free speech, until someone who disagrees with them starts talking. I suppose I should be greatful that youíre not just shouting out PENIS.

To be honest I am pretty horrified that I have to explain how the British democracy works to British people but itís a labour I will carry until you all take long enough out from going Ďohh transí to actually educate themselves.

Now getting back to the subject in hand, the document youíve cut and paste is from a a local branch of a tiny trans support group. They are totally self funding, the grants that the charity give out average at £200, with the largest ever given, being £1500. The Edinburgh branch, whom youíve quoted, are the anarchist chapter, from my brief look online, itís fair to say that theyíre not exactly popular and hardly the George Soros of the trans world, in fact, they only have a twitter feed. Frankly, it looks like these demands were put together by a teenager, who hasnít had a shower for a few days. 

The document itself is a bit, err reaching but thatís fine becasue they donít have any way of implementing it.

In fact the London branch of the charity say:


Quote
From my experiences with Action for Trans Health, there has been an issue with political and group unity. This can cause problems such as a lack of clarification within branches and also certain political points being addressed against the views of other branches. This is the most notable with the Edinburgh branch, which seems to be a lot more explicitly anarchist in both its content on Facebook and their own manifesto. The proposals in this manifesto seem to contradict the proposals in London's response to the NHS consultation, which has a much more reformist approach compared to the radical, abolitionist points within the Edinburgh one. In order for the group to expand and maintain control, there needs to be more unity across all branches and more specific guidelines set up for new branches in order to ensure long term success, whilst maintaining significant degrees of autonomy in local branches to ensure they can meet any specific needs of the trans community in these areas. This proposal calls for the establishment of a manifesto for Action for Trans Health on a national scale that is implemented across all branches and setting up guidelines for new branches to follow in order to have a political line which is unified across all branches and prevents confusion and alienation from members and non-members alike.

Which, Iím reliably informed, is Third Sector speak for Ďhas anyone got a ball gag?í


What youíve done is the equivalent of getting a copy of the SCUM manifesto and claim that it represents all lesbians and while Iím sure that there are lesbians who want to cut up men, pretending that itís a representative view is, well I donít know what it is, Betty, youíre not dim, you have access to google, you know as well as I do that your post is a crock of shit, why do it? What is your agenda?

Iíd also like to remind you that you havenít told me where all this money you mentioned is coming from or going to.

Are you just throwing up as much shit as you can, in the hope that some sticks?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 11, 2018, 12:01:04 AM
Quote
And a load of other entitled old nose hair. that they won't be paying for.

I missed this bit. Itís not really related to trans people but then neither is most of what youíre saying and I want to get it off my chest. One of my young family members is a Corbynista, sheís annoying the fuck out of me with demands for her student loan to be excused, she want a free house and, frankly sheís not showing the respect to the Jewish community that she was raised to show. She even came up with a ludicrous story about the famously lesbian Angela Eaglesí ĎJewish husbandí.

As a fellow member of the Labour Party, who is obviously committed to collective responsibility when it comes to trans people, what are you going to do about it?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 11, 2018, 12:10:56 AM
Ok Top. Tell it to the Taoiseach.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 11, 2018, 09:17:41 AM
You really donít like anyone shining a light on your outrageous fibs and Swiss cheese argument, do you?

That the only explanation I can come up with because been happily chatting away in the Labour Party thread with my wife, (who broadly agrees with your politics), and lives in the very same house as me, for the best part of three years now.

I know that itís hard for people like you, who are so entrenched in their views, to acknowledge that the country right next door, has a more progressive view of trans people and is managing just fine. We make your Chicken Little argument obvious for thr scare mongering it is.

You wonít even acknowledge that all of the things that you claim as Ďlegitimate concernsí are actually laws that with the Equalities Act 2010 mostly dealt with and that youíve missed the bus on oppressing the minority group at hand do youíre making a fuss about paperwork.

What youíre left with in your frustration at the missed bus, is slandering a small community which results in a making that small, vulnerable community more vulnerable, shame on you and shame on the rest of you who do it.

Iím particularly tickled by the irony that GBís transphobe in chief, was still living with a man when the horrors of Section 28 were visited on the rest of us and doesnít understand the impact of living under them had to my community.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 11, 2018, 09:41:13 AM
You really donít like anyone shining a light on your outrageous fibs and Swiss cheese argument, do you?

That the only explanation I can come up with because been happily chatting away in the Labour Party thread with my wife, (who broadly agrees with your politics), and lives in the very same house as me, for the best part of three years now.

I know that itís hard for people like you, who are so entrenched in their views, to acknowledge that the country right next door, has a more progressive view of trans people and is managing just fine. We make your Chicken Little argument obvious for thr scare mongering it is.

You wonít even acknowledge that all of the things that you claim as Ďlegitimate concernsí are actually laws that with the Equalities Act 2010 mostly dealt with and that youíve missed the bus on oppressing the minority group at hand do youíre making a fuss about paperwork.

What youíre left with in your frustration at the missed bus, is slandering a small community which results in a making that small, vulnerable community more vulnerable, shame on you and shame on the rest of you who do it.

Iím particularly tickled by the irony that GBís transphobe in chief, was still living with a man when the horrors of Section 28 were visited on the rest of us and doesnít understand the impact of living under them had to my community.

No idea who you are referring to and I confess complete disinterest. Using the excuse of responding to my posts as a way to post personally motivated bile about other board users is not classy.

Its 2018. You're not going to shut anyone down here by screaming and shouting and calling people's posts "shit" and labelling them "terfs". No one here has to engage with that. Every time you do it you demonstrate exactly what we say is happening here. The bullying and attempted silencing of women opposed to the GRA amendments.

And its not going to work this time.

Now out of the need to give respect to the other important post on this page I'm not going to respond to you further.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Plus One on May 11, 2018, 10:29:21 AM
@Plus one I'm talking about a lesbian fancying a transwoman, not a transman...

Apologies... I read your post a number of times and every time read transman!!
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 11, 2018, 11:15:01 AM
Betty, if you canít bring yourself to concede that your claim of there bring a financial motivated conspricy was totally erroneous, at least admit that this claim of being slicenced:


Quote
The bullying and attempted silencing of women opposed to the GRA amendments.

On the heels of this attempting to silence another woman:

Quote
Ok Top. Tell it to the Taoiseach.

Has raised to you a level of hypocrisy where the lack of oxygen must be making you dizzy.


Now, we both know that claims of being silenced, while youíre refusing to debate and trying to close down others and a common tactic of thr TERF movement but you do know that they just look silly here or have you lost touch with reality to the point where you really donít?

As for bullying you, seriously? Is the lack of dizziness really dulled your appreciation of reality to that point? After running off every single person who disagrees with you on any subject, you are seriously claiming that you are being bullied because I disagree with you and have asked you to provide something to back up your claims?


Quote
Now out of the need to give respect to the other important post on this page I'm not going to respond to you further.

No, youíre not going to respond because youíve got nothing but spurious, unevidenced claims that donít stand up to even the most cursory examination and all you want is an echo chamber of your prejudice.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Madge Hooks on May 11, 2018, 03:05:46 PM
Reading this thread has made me incredibly sad.

Too long ago to be in recent memory, there was a debate on here whether transwomen or transmen are allowed to post on Gingerbeer was utterly awful and it organically came to pass that if you identify as a lesbian/bi and lesbians are legit among your dating pool, then sure yes, if not then you really donít need to be in a womenís space. People have come and gone on their journeys, as gender and sexuality is inextricably linked.

What I cannot fathom is that Iíve been exposed to the same factors as many of you and yet I donít feel that transwomen are encroaching on my space or that I am duty bound to fancy them.

Once polar opposites are established, neither side showers themselves in glory and in much in the same way that lefties hate to be called racist, so too do right-on lesbians hate to be called transphobic. And trans people dislike being misgendered and say awful things, often misogynistic, in retaliation.

Everyoneís personal experience of gender identity or sexuality does not negate another personís. You define who you are, nobody else does.

Iím also disappointed with the outright refusal to consider using the term Ďcisí, or engaging with the correct pronoun, or not seeing why saying Ďpregnant peopleí makes sense. You can still be a pregnant woman and refer to yourself as one. Itís more for enlightening medical professionals because, spoiler alert, pregnant transmen do exist.

A couple of years ago, I accidentally found myself standing next to TERF lesbians picketing a transwoman while she was publicly speaking at a Dyke March event and it was truly vile. I hadnít heard the term before or encountered lesbians turning on others within our community. The rudeness and things they were shouting. What business are her genitals to them? Apparently it was raging on in the Facebook event leading to to the march, but Iíd switched my notifications off.
I felt something visceral that was making me want to punch them. I didnít see any difference between them and the Westboro Baptist Church picketing a soldierís funeral. And Iím finding it such a shame to see what were actions of a few lesbians on the fringes then to be quite widely held beliefs among lesbians who I value on here. What has happened?
The objective of the Dyke March was to show London what a bunch of lesbians look like, but it turned into political (if you can call it that) infighting about who qualifies as a lesbian. To say I felt really short changed about the whole thing is an understatement. It left a really bitter taste in my mouth.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 11, 2018, 06:47:38 PM
Its always disappointing when someone doesnít share your views but the answer to that is convince them with compelling argument or accept that not everyone thinks the same.

I donít think anyone has said in this thread that they feel they are duty bound to fancy transwomen or that transwomen are encroaching on their space. Objecting to transactivists stating that its transphobia to object to sex with dick is a different thing. People have said time and time again on the thread that self definition will make it easier for men (not transwomen) to abuse womens spaces because there is no realistic challenge that can be put if self definition is the only criteria for access. Its like its written in invisible ink and not being read.

I was confused by the fact that you say :

ďYou define who you are, nobody else doesĒ and then ďIím also disappointed with the outright refusal to consider using the term Ďcisí in the next sentence.

So ďYou define who you are. No one else. BUT you should be defining how I want you to define otherwise I am disappointedĒ.

There are very good reasons why some women donít identify as ďcisĒ. Including a different view of what gender is and how it applies to them. But you either accept peopleís right to self-define or you donít.

As for the Dyke March, I think that short-changed every lesbian.

Iím guessing the trans woman speaker who was heckled was Sarah Brown who had been literally telling lesbians to suck her balls shortly before then, so put in that context Iím not surprised.
As for the objective of the Dyke March being to show London what a bunch of lesbians looked like Ė it would be massively ironic if it was since it was billed as :
 ďThe Dyke March Ė its for everyoneĒ

 that was its strapline. Queers, bi's transmen, transwomen, straight women, straight men, allies blaa blaa. So anyone wanting to stand there in London and see what a bunch of dykes looked like was going to see anything but that if they looked at the Dyke March. I think the objective of that particular Dyke March was probably to boost someoneís CV. It left a really bitter taste in the mouth of lesbians who felt that lesbianism was being completely being erased and it wasnít like there werenít already enough words on the LGBTQI+ to cover everyoneís particular specialness without lesbianism being stretched to fit everyone.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 11, 2018, 09:27:51 PM
Now we're all here can somebody point me to a decent exposition of the transwomen on all women shortlists debate?  Because my most cogent thought on this is "But Lily Madigan" which is never a good place to be.   And Mumsnet are all "Males defining themselves as women is a violation in itself" so there's no point asking them.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 11, 2018, 10:03:05 PM
Now we're all here can somebody point me to a decent exposition of the transwomen on all women shortlists debate?  Because my most cogent thought on this is "But Lily Madigan" which is never a good place to be.   And Mumsnet are all "Males defining themselves as women is a violation in itself" so there's no point asking them.

Impartial information is thin on the ground, personally, I like the Labour Partyís reply to JJ & the Mumsnet Massiveís LBA but that might just be becasue it cost them £17k.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: hellohowareyoutoday on May 11, 2018, 10:58:11 PM
Trans people are a bit like insects; they're more scared of you (and society) than you are of them. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong that transwomen aren't shouting at me to suck their balls.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 11, 2018, 11:04:00 PM
Ok that's my sig line now.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 11, 2018, 11:08:27 PM
HHAYT has always been a favourite of mine, she has an ability to get to the heart of thr matter and has a lovely way with words.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: hellohowareyoutoday on May 11, 2018, 11:10:35 PM
I am honored, thank you!
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 11, 2018, 11:17:46 PM
If youíre intrested at all, and there is no reason why you should be, I know that itís no longer fashionable to find facts compelling, Sharh has a somewhat different recollection of events, much closer to Madge Hooksí, interestingly:

http://www.sarahlizzy.com/blog/?p=236 (http://www.sarahlizzy.com/blog/?p=236)
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 11, 2018, 11:33:17 PM
This is one of the leaders of the protest against Sarah Brown, about four minutes in, she starts a slide show with photos of trans women, some taken from the internet without their consent, some taken in public without their consent, so that she can mock their appearance. Itís cruel, nasty and utterly unnecessary. It dehumanise the people whoís photos she uses and itís dehumanising for all trans women.

Mocking and jeering other women appearance has no place in my feminism, doing it to a small, already marginalised group of women is sickening. Do watch from the beginning, she introduces herself as a transphobe, to a warm reception.

Incidentally, she has also been a guest speaker at A Womanís Place, the group who have been protested against by the folks in masks that we touched on earlier.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RF4OHrBoCCw (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RF4OHrBoCCw)

This cruel, nasty, dehumanising speech, is the debate that Betty is so keen to defend. If you have a problem with trans women, if maybe they make you a bit uncomfortable to the point where you canít see them as fully human, imagine that this video shows a race or religion of people and remember that the Nazis didnít start off with gas chambers, they started off with meetings.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Lyco on May 11, 2018, 11:47:42 PM
Quote
Its always disappointing when someone doesnít share your views but the answer to that is convince them with compelling argument or accept that not everyone thinks the same.

I kinda agree with that.

So, full disclosure. A few weeks ago I was (almost) every bit as uncomfortable with the GRC changes as the rest of you. I was certainly horrified by people like Lily Madigan and I had this creeping feeling of anger about womenís erasure by Ďthoseí kinds of transwomen.

Iíd managed to swerve the conversation with my much more inclusive friends btw. And I genuinely could not understand why my wife was so miffed with the Rad Fems.

Iíve always felt a little uncomfortable about trans equality to be honest. Iíve done a really good job of hiding it, mostly due to jobs Iíve had in the past and Iíve certainly not discussed it. My prejudices have been like a dirty little secret and I felt almost relieved to hear others saying that stuff out loud.

Now, I know that message boards only let you see a slice of a person, not all of them and Iím sure some of you may think Top tied me to the kitchen chair and lectured me until I capitulated. But thatís not how she rolls. (Not about politics anyway, the housework is another thing entirely).

She simply asked me to justify my position, we prodded at my feminist theory, we talked about equality and I began to feel even more uncomfortable as each layer of my prejudice was revealed as being illogical, unreasonable and without any real foundation. And the reason I was so uncomfortable wasnít that I felt exposed or manipulated, but that I realised what an idiot Iíd been.

Transwomen are women. I donít choke on those words any more because now I embrace them as being true. Even the really stupid offensive ones btw.

And going back to my original thought process, there really arenít Ďthoseí kind of transwomen btw. There are just transwomen in all their myriad ways of being. Some are lovely, some are beautiful, some are complete arseholes, some will never pass anyoneís standards of femininity, some will blow us all away. But you canít simply accept the ones that you agree with. And equality should never be a gift given when itís earned by good behaviour.

Anyway, this is a ramble about my journey. And actually, itís also a little bit of a thank you to my wife. Sheís the best feminist I know and Iím really grateful that she reminded me what feminism is.

Now, Iím sure loads of you will dismiss this, thatís fine. Those who donít know me will think what they like, but I hope those who do know me will realise Iím not that easily swayed. And if there is anyone out there on the fence, Iíd genuinely urge you to listen to Top because she knows her shit. And because she is right. And sheís also literally the cleverest person I know.

(This is also the only time in 6 years I have ever either stood up for her on here or written a serious post about how excellent she is. She will hate it and I will probably be sleeping in the shed.)
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 11, 2018, 11:49:25 PM
Actually Betty has never defended any hate speech and never would. Betty put in context references to genitals by lesbians heckling Sarah Brown after she made her ďsuck my ballsĒ comments. And to make her keynote speaker at a Dyke March following those comments was another incidence of the  organisers bad faith.

And Betty absokutely supports A Womens Place or any other organisation that stands against the bullying and silencing of women over the GRA proposals. Betty doesnít have to agree with every word by every speaker because Betty is a grown up with a mind of her own.

Iím not going to play into  your hands by resorting to personal attacks, Top. I know your game. Attack people personally. Hope they retaliate. Get the thread locked because itís deteriorated into personal abuse. Debate successfully shut down. Not going to happen.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 11, 2018, 11:53:43 PM
Quote
People have said time and time again on the thread that self definition will make it easier for men (not transwomen) to abuse womens spaces because there is no realistic challenge that can be put if self definition is the only criteria for access. Its like its written in invisible ink and not being read.
Except I'm seeing people increasingly saying that transwomen themselves are intrinsically misogynistic just by existing. I know you're not responsible for what they say and I know even a stopped clock or Rod Liddle is right every so often but at what point does one look at one's allies in this and check oneself?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 12, 2018, 12:08:43 AM
Have I ever called or regarded someone who says that that an allly? No different to me suggesting you are an allly of someone who sends IMs to feminists saying ďdie terf dieĒ.

Oh and Iíve never actually seen anyone say that.

Iíve seen feminists state that the idea of equating the performance of femininity with being a woman is misogynist. And i canít see a lot wrong with that.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 12, 2018, 12:12:00 AM
Iím glad weíre chatting again, Betty, even across the water.

Youíve defended a womanís place on the basis of free speech. Hate speech takes place at those meetings. Ergo, youíve defended hate speech. Iím not taking a weird stance on this, Iím not stretching definitions here, I donít need to.

Moving on from hate speech, youíve also claim that youíre Ďnot surprisedí at discriminatory speech. I wonít go as far as to describe that as surrport but it does make you sound complicit, maybe thatís not deliberate, so Iíll explain how it goes.

If someone says something to piss you off, itís perfectly fine to make your pissed off ness known but itís not alright to attack their identity. Iíll give you some examples:

If a black person says something annoying, you can pick them up in what they said but not their colour.

If a Jewish person says something you donít like, you can pick them up on what they said but not their religion.

If a trans person says something you donít like, you can pick them up on what they said but not the fact that they are trans gendered.

Clear enough, you need to Ďbe surprisedí at this behaviour, itís odious.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 12, 2018, 12:14:41 AM
Have I ever called or regarded someone who says that that an allly? No different to me suggesting you are an allly of someone who sends IMs to feminists saying ďdie terf dieĒ.

Oh and Iíve never actually seen anyone say that.

Iíve seen feminists state that the idea of equating the performance of femininity with being a woman is misogynist. And i canít see a lot wrong with that.

Yeah, but this isn't Twitter nutters, this is the leading lights of that movement, from Bindel on downwards. Their supporters talk about free speech and open debate but if you actually read what they say, even in the broadsheets, the disgust and contempt is in plain view. 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 12, 2018, 12:20:38 AM
No weíre not chatting.

No one should feel they have to engage with the childish abuse you dole out.

But youíre not silencing me. Not now. Not ever.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 12, 2018, 12:22:10 AM
... No different to me suggesting you are an allly of someone who sends IMs to feminists saying ďdie terf dieĒ
.

Oh, my mate has just done a statistical analyst of the TERF Is A Slur website and chased down all of the Ďdeath threatsí, there have been exactly no directed death threats, not a single one in the U.K.. I canít post the evidence here, the image limit is too small but Iím happy to email it to you.


Quote
Iíve seen feminists state that the idea of equating the performance of femininity with being a woman is misogynist. And i canít see a lot wrong with that.

I donít think thatís true but itís not really relevant here, so if you fancy hearing my Butleresque take on it, feel free to start another thread and Iíll join it. It would be so bloody refreshing to talk about feminism of the kind that centres women and not trans people. So beautifully retro.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 12, 2018, 12:26:09 AM

But youíre not silencing me. Not now. Not ever.

The last thing in the world that Iíd want to do is silence you, Iím on the edge of my seat waiting for you to tell me when all this Trans Cash is coming from and going to.

Now drop the faux victimhood, it doesnít suit you.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 12, 2018, 12:33:48 AM
Have I ever called or regarded someone who says that that an allly? No different to me suggesting you are an allly of someone who sends IMs to feminists saying ďdie terf dieĒ.

Oh and Iíve never actually seen anyone say that.

Iíve seen feminists state that the idea of equating the performance of femininity with being a woman is misogynist. And i canít see a lot wrong with that.

Yeah, but this isn't Twitter nutters, this is the leading lights of that movement, from Bindel on downwards. Their supporters talk about free speech and open debate but if you actually read what they say, even in the broadsheets, the disgust and contempt is in plain view.

Leading lights of what Movement? Julie Bindelís not my leader. In fact Iíve probably referenced cringing at things she said on here a few times. But the idea that some middle class fuck wits in America can tell the Working Class Movement they canít have her as a speaker to talk about her working class upbringing, is not going to happen on my watch. And Iíd love to hear your critical analysis of the people who abuse her and threaten her for being a SWERF. Iím not hearing any condemnation by people like you of the threats of actual violence made against feminists but youíll wring your hands about use of pronouns until the cows come home. And I neither use nor advocate the inflammatory use of pronouns. But the disparity in condemnation begs all sorts of questions about the motives involved.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 12, 2018, 12:38:09 AM

But youíre not silencing me. Not now. Not ever.

The last thing in the world that Iíd want to do is silence you, Iím on the edge of my seat waiting for you to tell me when all this Trans Cash is coming from and going to.

Now drop the faux victimhood, it doesnít suit you.

Oh I donít follow orders, Top. I make it a habit of never jumping just because you or anyone else tells me to. Like Mumsnet.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 12, 2018, 12:51:46 AM
And fortunately anyone can go on to Twitter and type ďDie terf dieĒ and see real life examples of it being used non ironically. Iíve received death threats on Facebook from trans activists simply for condemning the ďdie terf dieĒ slogan.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: hellohowareyoutoday on May 12, 2018, 12:59:09 AM
On social media I have this friend whom I'm a bit scared to delete in fear that she'll put evil voodoo spells on me, but anyway, she just shared this stupid thing right now, lamenting that this is the direction the country is heading:

https://www.theblaze.com/news/2018/05/10/parents-should-ask-babies-permission-to-change-diapers-for-culture-of-consent-at-home-sex-expert

The thing is, no country is currently going that way. It's complete alarmist nonsense that will be shared to bolster illogical right-wing arguments. Examples of radical things being said by somebody somewhere are not representative of wide spread dogma, and shouldn't be used as evidence of any looming social change.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 12, 2018, 01:09:10 AM
Itís nonsense but Iím not sure what itís comparable with in this debate. Riley Dennis and Die Terf Die is in a much bigger league and presenting itself as cutting edge.

Itís a scare story that people who have genuine issues with consent will want to deride and people who understand and appreciate consent will ignore as sensationalism.

Unfortunately there are still  those who see consent as some wishy washy liberal obsession. They are comfortable only is assuming consent until the other person objects and even when they do object they expect to be able to demand reasons for the refusal that are acceptable to them. Itís part of a long entrenched rape culture.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Madge Hooks on May 12, 2018, 01:12:59 AM
Nobody showers themselves in glory.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Madge Hooks on May 12, 2018, 01:15:45 AM
If youíre intrested at all, and there is no reason why you should be, I know that itís no longer fashionable to find facts compelling, Sharh has a somewhat different recollection of events, much closer to Madge Hooksí, interestingly:

http://www.sarahlizzy.com/blog/?p=236 (http://www.sarahlizzy.com/blog/?p=236)

I was there, stood behind the police.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 12, 2018, 01:17:21 AM
Betty, you're absolutely not responsible for what the gender critical lobby are saying but they are saying it in large numbers, including yesterday, to me, "Males defining themselves as women is a violation in itself".  As Madge said, once polar opposites are established, neither side showers themselves in glory but my no doubt not bird's-eye view is that the gender critical side is nastier. 

Now, this isn't a charm contest but stuff like that is a pretty standard view over on Mumsnet and I should be arguing it with them.  But quite apart from the fact that their interface isn't nearly as good as the Simple Machines one, they start to accuse you of being a man pretty quickly, it's very silly and pointless, and I have no strong feelings for Mumsnet and no particular desire to be part of their world. I have very strong feelings for Gingerbeer.  I'd rather talk about it here.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: hellohowareyoutoday on May 12, 2018, 01:37:11 AM
Itís nonsense but Iím not sure what itís comparable with in this debate. Riley Dennis and Die Terf Die is in a much bigger league and presenting itself as cutting edge.

Itís a scare story that people who have genuine issues with consent will want to deride and people who understand and appreciate consent will ignore as sensationalism.

Unfortunately there are still  those who see consent as some wishy washy liberal obsession. They are comfortable only is assuming consent until the other person objects and even when they do object they expect to be able to demand reasons for the refusal that are acceptable to them. Itís part of a long entrenched rape culture.

Fair enough, but I have literally never heard of either of these things, and I spend my life hopping in and out of various diverse rabbit holes on the internet. Maybe it's a British thing, and in that case, you can rest assured knowing that the plague hasn't spread to my part of the world just yet. Do you know Nikocado Avocado? No? Well, he does mukbung shows on YouTube where he eats packs of spicy noodles and cries. He has 700,000 subscribers. Don't know what mukbung is? It's when people record themselves eating absurd amounts of food and talking. There is a moral issue at stake with mukbung culture too, because kids watch these videos, and it can't possibly be good to watch a mentally unstable person cry into a 5 gallon bucket of mac 'n cheese. The internet has given a platform to many zany people, and these people often build up quite a staggering following. The point of my previous post was just to give an example of something that I don't believe is a valid concern yet being advertised as a major threat to the current status quo.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 12, 2018, 01:37:50 AM
Wolfie, It always strikes me as odd that people who talk generally in terms of non binaries see this as about two sides.

At the moment that only makes sense in terms of there being one side who is not being restricted or even criticised for anything they say and one side that is being no platformed, having its venue cancelled after threats, being stalked to meetings and misrepresented in the press.

Side one is trans activists and mens rights activists / brocialists taking advantage of the trans cause to silence feminists. It includes some absolute nutters.

Side two is feminists, pragmatists and some trans women and trans sexual women who want womens interests to be considered as part of the consultation process of the GRA. They include gender critical feminists, radical feminists, women who are politically unaligned but donít like the stink of mens piss, want sex segregated facilities and would like to be guaranteed a female doctor when they are feeling
vulnerable. There will be some total nut cases. They are an umbrella group and their only real point of agreement is they want the right for their views to be taken into account. Which has so far not happened.

Death threats and attempted silencing is only happening from group 1 to group 2.

Pronoun shinanigans and transphobia is not a universal in group 2.

If you really think death threats and censorship are less nasty than pronoun misuse or political refusal to see people as the gender they would prefer to be seen as, then thatís a matter for you. I donít agree and I never knowingly misgender anyone.

But Iím solidly in there with group 2 and absolutely believe itís the moral choice for a feminist.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 12, 2018, 01:39:30 AM
Iím happy to condem all threats of violence, Iíve no problem with that at all. Iím particularly condemning of the real ones.

I also signed and shared on my FB page the petition to allow Bindel to speak, in the WCM.  I think her apology should have been taken at face value. It was a while ago but I think I made a (very small) financial donation to the venue too, it must have cost a fortune to field that kind of flack.

Julie loves a ruck, there is a video of her before she went into the venue in Bristol, being offered the option to go in the front door or the back, she wanted to face the demo and described the protesters as Ďkidsí which is fair enough but not how the situation was presented, her being a poor, oppressed woman. Still some people like to do faux victimhood because they think it improves their position, I donít get it myself but each to their own. Julie has a much better grasp of PR than those she was up against.

Quote
And fortunately anyone can go on to Twitter and type ďDie terf dieĒ and see real life examples of it being used non ironically. Iíve received death threats on Facebook from trans activists simply for condemning the ďdie terf dieĒ slogan.

Die TERF die isnít a death threat. Itís not directed, itís not personal, itís just a bit of hyperbolic idiocy. Iíve seen Ďfeminists must burní, I didnít find it particularly chilling, it didnít make me think that Ďfeministí was a slur.

Iím very sorry to hear that youíve received personal threats on FB. I hope you were able to report them to the police, those sorts of people should be punished with the full weight of the law.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 12, 2018, 01:47:16 AM
Laughing at the suggestion that ďDie terf dieĒ or ďfeminists must burnĒ are are not death threats but it was celebrated by the same source that a leaflet calling male sexed trans gendered women athletes ďmenĒ was reported as a hate crime. Says it all, really.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 12, 2018, 02:13:56 AM
Lyco,

I've just logged on after a really heavy week at work to see pages and pages of posts to read through and got to yours.
I did wonder if you had had misgivings about it all. It was interesting to read how you changed your mind.
I was less pleased to read that your wife saw fit to accuse me of being GB's transphobe in chief .. and decided to allude to the fact that I was living with a man during the fight by 'her' community against section 28.
I wonder if you admire that kind of debate? I wonder if you're comfortable with an attempt to other me ? To try and play some 'gold star' card or to gloat that she's been a lesbian for longer and that somehow negates my view?
I know your wife's life story and would never bring it to the board to make a cheap point.

Is this meant to see me off from posting?
I came back on here to see if any other lesbians felt aggrieved as I do about the cotton ceiling, a phrase that is simply RAPEY and an intelligent woman tries to embarrass me about the fact I wasn't out as long as she was.
I'm not embarrassed whatsoever. I think your wife should be for trying to shame me.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 12, 2018, 02:19:25 AM
If you really think death threats and censorship are less nasty than pronoun misuse or political refusal to see people as the gender they would prefer to be seen as, then thatís a matter for you. I donít agree and I never knowingly misgender anyone.

No, and neither does Blythe and accept they are good faith misgivings.
What I would say is that the centre of mass of 2 seems an altogether more unsavoury place than that of 1.   But if Lyco has achieved consistency on this subject I have nobody to educatedly express my eternal dithering for me. FFS, Lyco.  >:(
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 12, 2018, 03:16:28 AM
Blyth, Iím not trying to shame you for not being out for as long as I have, just your behaviour. Although, not being out for as long should have given you a tiny bit of understanding that a person can appear to be one thing, while they are actually something else.

The slander, lies and misinformation youíre spreading, is about my friends; itís not just nasty and hurtful but youíre actively creating an environment that makes them less safe. Iím doing what I can to stop that. I understand that youíve submerged yourself in MN but you need to stop taking what you read at face value, most of what youíre presenting as fact is utter bollox.

After one of your fellow TERFS was pulled up in her transphobia on a womanís Facebook page, you threatened to report that woman to her CLP, you frightened her to the point where sheís less politically active. You have actively silenced a woman, in my sight, and made her fearful. You didnít live under Section 28 but what youíve done has recreated that environment for someone else. The comments you are making are exactly the same comment that weíre made about the gay community before the inception of S28.

Quote
Less than 1% of the population disrupting everyone else.

If youíre not ashamed of what youíre doing whatís the problem with others knowing? Youíre happy enough to pose with signs saying TERF, so why canít I call you that?

I donít think that there is much else about me that you could gossip about either, Iíd say that well is pretty dry.

Iím intrested to see that being called transphobe in chief offends you but hereís what you said earlier in the thread, it cuts both ways:

Quote
There are no laws about the right  not to be offended are there?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 12, 2018, 03:33:54 AM
I didn't say I was offended.. I said I was less than pleased to be called GB s transphobe in chief.
I do think you are trying to shame me about years out of the closet and it's a bit pathetic.
I have legitimate misgivings about changes in the law as do many here and elsewhere.

As to the facebook allegation... Do you mean Kiwi Goddesses post? I've only had two conversations about self id.
Feel free to copy and paste what I said as I have tried to always be civil.
If I threatened to report your friend to their CLP I imagine they said something extremely unpleasant. Could you expand?
I'm off to bed after a 50hour week but will be back tomorrow.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: MissRosie on May 12, 2018, 08:15:21 AM
Iím happy to condem all threats of violence, Iíve no problem with that at all. Iím particularly condemning of the real ones.
Amen to that!

I live in Helsinki a lot of the time and the trans exclusionary rhetoric within feminism that we're seeing in the UK/US is very much Not A Thing within the LGBT /queer/ lesbian / feminist communities here, as far as I can gather. Indeed, people are quite stunned and low-key entertained when I regale them with tales of mumsnet and the "hilarious" manfriday shenanigans with the same kind of slightly disgusted fascination one might have towards America when first hearing about spray cheese. The question of trans women's place in lesbian communities is indeed a discussion that takes place (and trans men in the gay community) but is not presented as the hyperbolic dumpster fire we see in the UK.

Discussing and exploring the differences/shared experiences/ similarities/ attraction between cis women and trans women has a lot more potential in an environment where people are not continuously accusing trans women of being men and cis people don't automatically decide that because such discourse might be taking place somewhere, that sex is being "demanded" of them personally.

Here is an article on the origins of the term ' cotton ceiling' in case it hasn't already been shared. http://transadvocate.com/cotton-ceiling-uncovering-the-trans-conspiracy-to-rape-lesbians_n_10251.htm (http://transadvocate.com/cotton-ceiling-uncovering-the-trans-conspiracy-to-rape-lesbians_n_10251.htm)
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 12, 2018, 10:13:07 AM
So ďcotton ceilingĒcomes from a poorly attended seminar organised by Planned Parenthood. From the misleading bumph at the beginning I thought it was going to be one of those arse-aching anti- feminist conspiracy theories.

I think the extent to which you object to lesbian erasure or the redefining of lesbianism from without from being a same sex attraction to a same gender attraction often depends on how closely you identified  as a lesbian in the first place. Unsurprisingly, a lot of people who are not arsed about cotton ceiling agendas never identified as homosexual in the first place and have never had an investment in it.

Discussion about gender and sexual politics does not make up a huge percentage of Internet traffic so I dare say you could manage to avoid such niche postings about cotton ceilings and ďDie terf dieĒ  quite easily if you wanted to. Thatís not the point. People said the same thing about incels.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Sorted. on May 12, 2018, 10:45:39 AM
Honestly..., I donít give a toss about Lavatories, I donít give a toss about who sleeps with who, Iím happy to use whatever pronouns makes someone happy.  I have some misgivings about some sports..I have transfriends (men and women) and I donít accept the word Ďcisí because I donít accept the definition of gender that it entails.  I donít like gender roles....my transfriends (or just friends) know all of this about me and the world goes on.   

Hereís my issue..and for me itís a big one for me..

I spend a lot of time debating online..mainly about antisemitism but thatís another thread..when the Lily Madigan stuff kicked off,  trans issues got my attention. Mainly because of the ridiculous nonsense spouted by Madigan and friends but mostly because of the abuse women got (not, certainly not at that point anyway, TERFS) women..for asking questions and raising concerns. Not concerns about trans women but concerns about men.   The abuse wasnít coming from Transwomen either, it was coming from men...and itís nasty stuff.  My own first venture into the debate went like this..

ĎWill it (not even Ďhowí) negativily impact on girls at my school?í   The answer (from a woke bro dude). ĎChange is coming - deal with it TerfĒ.    ĎThatís what I want to know..what (if anything will
Change?   Answer:  I donít talk to bigots.  Muted.   

 My first interaction.  Iíve had better since but never with woke brocialists. 

My lefty brothers have replaced the word Ďc*nt* with TERF.  They can now abuse women in the vilest terms and then claim to be better feminists than them.   Yesterday one of them..a personal favourite of mine at the mo - with a large following and a high profile..went on to argue that child tape in countries where little girls are brown isnít rape because cultureí.   Another has been arguing for weeks with FGM survivors that the way they discuss FGM is transphobic and he knows best.    I donít believe for a second that he gives a toss about trans women,  heís just found a way to be a bastard and virtue signal at the same time.  They are constantly patted on the back by their bros and THANKED by women for being such great advocates.  Listen up trans-sisters..They hate women.    Iíve seen paint about ripping ovaries out and raping lesbians with a  serrated dildo..all from woke men.  Iíve conversed with another straight white male who stated that lesbians who wonít accept dick are transphobic.  His tweet ĎI see transwomen as women except for relationship purposesí at the end of that conversation was beautiful.

When  any movement attracts and encourages abuse of women and gives men like this and any change in the law gives them access to women and vulnerable womenís spaces..iím going to question it and as yet, I havenít been given any evidence that this canít happen.  Mainly because debate (with women) is shut down (by men) as transphobic.

Itís rapidly turning into an online movement for bro-dudes to legitimately abuse women. Itís not great for us and .that canít be good for trans folk either.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Lyco on May 12, 2018, 10:51:42 AM
The other thing that also broke through my confusion is that Iíve got this mate. She is beautiful and kind and clever and funny. She goes about the business of being her in an amazingly gentle and graceful way. Sheís is one of the most classy people Iíve ever met. Sheís also a trans woman. And letís face it, letís be honest here about what is really important, she also passes. Not only does she pass as a woman to the world but she also clearly passes my internal tests for being a woman as I had no idea she was trans when we met. I look at some of the appalling transwomen on twitter and I canít marry the two as being of the same tribe.

But even when I was at my most terfy (not very terfy), I would never have dreamed of using the phrase TIM. To me, that is as bad as deadnaming and once you start going down that road, youíve lost the argument and certainly the moral high ground. At that point there is absolutely nothing to debate. You donít want a debate. You want to simply point and say ďyouíre wrong and you donít existĒ. I wish more people would own that.

And while I was sorting this out in my own head, I was always aware that the cotton ceiling stuff is a myth and a lie that has grown legs and taken on a life of its own. Of course there are now transwomen who say that, there are always going to be provocative agitators in every single argument as well as complete arseholes who shouldnít be allowed on the internet. But tarring every single trans woman with the same brush is as bad as the homophobes who argued for Section 28 because of Wages Due Lesbians or because they thought all gay men were paedophiles because of the 1% of abusers that were gay.

What I have found is that any dissenting voice, anyone who stands with transwomen is accused of silencing women. That usually that comes after the accusation of being a man.

Letís be honest, there are transwomen out there behaving appallingly. But there are also plenty of cis women out there behaving appallingly. Iím not as robust as my wife when it comes to an argument, Iím much more likely to be the one in the middle with their hand up going Ďcome on everyone, weíve all had a drink..Ē but I have been told I am a man, I have been banned from Mumsnet for saying, and I quote ďI think youíre being really offensive, transwomen are womenĒ. Iíve had my twitter suspended for retweeting the most innocuous stuff and one of my closest friends was reported to her boss as part of a organised, targeted attack for supporting trans rights. Thatís before I even get onto the personal abuse.

So, this whole notion that women are being silenced. With respect, fuck off. You arenít being silenced. There is no silencing you because, and you know this, you are the far more powerful group in this.

I have had my gender, my sexuality, my entire life questioned and my online life shut down because I wonít cede to TERF ideology. I havenít experienced this kind of erasure and dismissal since I was in my 20s. And itís coming from other fucking women, which, more fool me, I never saw coming.

So, actually I get Topís anger. I didnít. But I do now. Because Iíve seen first hand what is happening to people who are on the other side of the argument. Partly because if it wasnít for the gobby angry ones, weíd still have Section 28 but mostly because sheís absolutely right. And your refusal to discuss, your insistence that you are being silenced when itís us who are being shouted down, because, you know, facts is making even the mild mannered janitors like me angry too.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 12, 2018, 11:01:43 AM
Not being silenced you say? Oh great. Weíll carry on posting without anyone screaming personal abuse at us then.

Great post, Sorted.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 12, 2018, 11:15:28 AM
Blyth, Iím not trying to shame you for not being out for as long as I have, just your behaviour. Although, not being out for as long should have given you a tiny bit of understanding that a person can appear to be one thing, while they are actually something else.

The slander, lies and misinformation youíre spreading, is about my friends; itís not just nasty and hurtful but youíre actively creating an environment that makes them less safe. Iím doing what I can to stop that. I understand that youíve submerged yourself in MN but you need to stop taking what you read at face value, most of what youíre presenting as fact is utter bollox.

After one of your fellow TERFS was pulled up in her transphobia on a womanís Facebook page, you threatened to report that woman to her CLP, you frightened her to the point where sheís less politically active. You have actively silenced a woman, in my sight, and made her fearful. You didnít live under Section 28 but what youíve done has recreated that environment for someone else. The comments you are making are exactly the same comment that weíre made about the gay community before the inception of S28.

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Less than 1% of the population disrupting everyone else.

If youíre not ashamed of what youíre doing whatís the problem with others knowing? Youíre happy enough to pose with signs saying TERF, so why canít I call you that?

I donít think that there is much else about me that you could gossip about either, Iíd say that well is pretty dry.

Iím intrested to see that being called transphobe in chief offends you but hereís what you said earlier in the thread, it cuts both ways:

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There are no laws about the right  not to be offended are there?

I've just got up and Sorted pointed out to me that you say I posted a picture of myself with a TERF sign ... I think you mean my lightbox which was a birthday present, I did indeed arrange a message on my new bday present and pose alongside it ... it said DERF.  It was a joke about me being a DOG exclusionary radical feminist.  It was a joke about our dog, Doug driving me mad, he barks at me when he wants to go out and bugs me for crisps and never does that to Sorted.  DERF - a joke - get it?
So thanks for giving me a laugh this morning.

I have thought back to your accusation that I threatened to report a woman to her CLP because of something she said to a fellow TERF.
You mean a FB post by an ex GBer.  She was arguing about something or other and a woman joined in who was making very bold statements about trans women being allowed in rape crisis centres.  I don't think I would have used her language but I got her point.  I only joined in the fb thread because she started suffering a prolonged verbally attack by the ex gber and another woman who was a Momentum buddy (relevant in light of Sorted's brocialist post). 

The woman they wouldn't stop attacking was a child sexual abuse survivor, she'd been trafficked and pimped out in her childhood and it was quite obvious that she was very damaged by her own experience and why she felt so threatened by male bodied people.  I didn't know her but I felt I had to speak out at their behaviour towards a vulnerable person.  I suggested that they were bringing the party into disrepute by their attack on the vulnerable woman and the swearing and vitriole towards her.  So that comment must have struck a nerve with the ex-GBer. 

You assert that she doesn't play an active part in politics as a result now ... that's not true.  She pulled an all nighter for the local elections in her local ward and leafletted and knocked up voters. I saw her posts, which I presume you did too if you are on her fb. 
I really wish you'd stick to the general topic rather than trying to score points using personal information from my past or stuff you are misrepresenting from elsewhere.  I would certainly not do that to you or anyone on here.  It's cheap and more importantly you are being disingenuous.

I'm going to have some breakfast and then read all the posts that aren't personal properly and reply.
Happy Saturday everyone.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Lust for Life on May 12, 2018, 11:22:23 AM
After Top pointed out that the law had changed unproblematically in Ireland, I googled it. I found that it was the culmination of a decades long fight for human rights by an intelligent woman who had once been born with a man's body, supported by people from a wide social spectrum.

Quite frankly, for lots of reasons, perhaps linked to population density, I see a huge difference in culture between Ireland and the U.K. I read Sorted's post with increasing horror. I don't know if you can compare Ireland and the U.K. on this, it seems like the genie is out of the bottle and an argument is happening that perhaps never should have started. I don't know why some British men have hijacked a situation that Irish men didn't. But it does make me feel that the concerns about crazy straight men with an axe to grind are well founded.

This is not about trans issues at all any more, which makes me very sad for transpeople, and for feminists, and for lesbians, and for all women, and for British society, to be honest.

The comment from MissRosie was also telling. I live in the Netherlands and people don't get it there, either.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 12, 2018, 11:41:10 AM
Laughing at the suggestion that ďDie terf dieĒ or ďfeminists must burnĒ are are not death threats


Die TERF die, isnít a death threat, itís not directed and itís not a statement of intent, unless your up against Lord Voldemort.

Someone on the Internet is probably, right now, saying that feminists must burn. Itís not a death threat to me because it isnít directed, they donít know who or where I am and itís not creditable.


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...a leaflet calling male sexed trans gendered women athletes ďmenĒ was reported as a hate crime.  Says it all, really.

Statements like this, while unevidenced are hard to refute. Someone, somewhere might have reported a hate crime. The police would be quick to tell that that a hate crime necessitates an actual crime crime taking place before the hate aspect could be added and sent them away with a flea in their ear.

What did actually happen is that the Football Association, both of the clubs and anyone with any kind of investment in inclusive football, condemned the leaflet in the strongest possible terms.

And the same woman who was giving out the leaflets, which mostly ended up on the ground, then went on to shout PENIS at a transwoman, got suspended from the Green Party. I hope they will also look into her actions over wasting paper.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 12, 2018, 11:54:54 AM
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The woman they wouldn't stop attacking was a child sexual abuse survivor, she'd been trafficked and pimped out in her childhood and it was quite obvious that she was very damaged by her own experience and why she felt so threatened by male bodied people.  I didn't know her but I felt I had to speak out at their behaviour towards a vulnerable person.  I suggested that they were bringing the party into disrepute by their attack on the vulnerable woman and the swearing and vitriole towards her.  So that comment must have struck a nerve with the ex-GBer. 

My fist instinct is to rip you apart for your total misrepresentation of what happend but I know that itís much more likely that you totally got the wrong end of the stick in that conversation.

The former GBer did jump on the women who made the comment about the CSA survivor about her abuse. She immediately told the woman that she was out of line and to stick to the point. The former GBer actually behaved with a lot of dignity and was totally respectful to the CSA survivorís abuse disclosure.

She was out campaigning in the local elections but your threat has frightened her out of discussing trans issues. You have silenced her because you either didnít see or misread her comment.

Enjoy your breakfast.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 12, 2018, 11:57:16 AM
After Top pointed out that the law had changed unproblematically in Ireland, I googled it. I found that it was the culmination of a decades long fight for human rights by an intelligent woman who had once been born with a man's body, supported by people from a wide social spectrum.

Quite frankly, for lots of reasons, perhaps linked to population density, I see a huge difference in culture between Ireland and the U.K. I read Sorted's post with increasing horror. I don't know if you can compare Ireland and the U.K. on this, it seems like the genie is out of the bottle and an argument is happening that perhaps never should have started. I don't know why some British men have hijacked a situation that Irish men didn't. But it does make me feel that the concerns about crazy straight men with an axe to grind are well founded.

This is not about trans issues at all any more, which makes me very sad for transpeople, and for feminists, and for lesbians, and for all women, and for British society, to be honest.

The comment from MissRosie was also telling. I live in the Netherlands and people don't get it there, either.

Yes.

I think that cultural differences in how patriarchy manifests itself in different cultures and how much is embodied in law, makes a difference. That's why its not valid people from one country to dictate to those in another what their laws on gender and biological sex should be.

There wasn't any evidence that the changes were unproblematic in Ireland. They didn't find any evidence over a very limited time scale that anyone had fraudulently filed a statutory declaration to change gender. Thats not the largest part of what the feared nature of the abuse would be here.  And of course, it doesn't measure at all how women may have adapted their behaviour in response by not accessing services or venues. I have seen no evidence whatsoever that confirms there has been no detrimental effect on women in Ireland. Just a bold headline assertion to that effect by a charity funded to advance trans rights but not backed by any actual research.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Sorted. on May 12, 2018, 12:00:58 PM
I didnít see any of this but To be fair she was very much part of a spirited conversation about transwomen and sport with a couple of people from here since then so Iím not sure she has been silenced...and nobody should be.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 12, 2018, 12:38:50 PM
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The woman they wouldn't stop attacking was a child sexual abuse survivor, she'd been trafficked and pimped out in her childhood and it was quite obvious that she was very damaged by her own experience and why she felt so threatened by male bodied people.  I didn't know her but I felt I had to speak out at their behaviour towards a vulnerable person.  I suggested that they were bringing the party into disrepute by their attack on the vulnerable woman and the swearing and vitriole towards her.  So that comment must have struck a nerve with the ex-GBer. 

My fist instinct is to rip you apart for your total misrepresentation of what happend but I know that itís much more likely that you totally got the wrong end of the stick in that conversation.

The former GBer did jump on the women who made the comment about the CSA survivor about her abuse. She immediately told the woman that she was out of line and to stick to the point. The former GBer actually behaved with a lot of dignity and was totally respectful to the CSA survivorís abuse disclosure.

She was out campaigning in the local elections but your threat has frightened her out of discussing trans issues. You have silenced her because you either didnít see or misread her comment.

Enjoy your breakfast.

What I know is that one vulnerable woman was sweary name called (also by the ex-GBer) and she was alone.  It wasn't pretty and that was the only reason I got involved.
So she is now too scared to talk about trans issues, I'm a bit skeptical about that as she has posted a trans related post since.  I doubt I have silenced anyone.  If I have, then I wouldn't wish that. 
The Labour Party forums are overwhelmingly of the same view as our ex-GBer so I am very surprised she feels less than confident.  I shall drop her a line asking her if she is ok. 

My breakfast was excellent, thanks.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 12, 2018, 12:41:05 PM
I don't know why some British men have hijacked a situation that Irish men didn't
.

While we didnít have anyone wanting to make political capital out of the law changes, there was a skirmish when A Womanís Place, tried to make ireland part of their Ďtourí. Iíve linked to the letter that Irish feminists sent to A Womanís Place but itís very hard to recreate or even fully explain what happened on Twitter. Where A Womanís Place founders/supporters/foot soldiers orchestrated a sustained attack on Irish feminists, they repeatedly refused to disclose who was paying for the visit, culminating it VA calling for our campaign to repeal the 8th amendment Ďa campaigne to make careless sex easierí.*

This seems to be a bit of a considered tactic of theirís, to roll in, absolutely ignite a situation or group of people and then claim victimhood when theyíve provoked a group/individual into retaliation. They did it with Sarah Brown, of abuse and doxing, then used her frustrated response to put the final nail in the coffin of her reputation.

Most of us arenít obsessively watching social media, so we donít see what has gone on, only the final, screen shotable response.

*again I canít put up the screenshot here but Iím happy to send it to you via another means, if you want it.


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This is not about trans issues at all any more, which makes me very sad for transpeople, and for feminists, and for lesbians, and for all women, and for British society, to be honest.

I discovered feminism at the tail end of the second wave sex war, just as things were, oftently violently, falling apart. Iíve feel Iíve seen this all before.

 I am living in Ireland and we are seeing the full force of Christian Fundermentalist money being poured in, an attempt to suppress moves towards liberalism. Not just with reference to reproductive rights but also the last campaign for equal marriage. I think that the following points are pertinent to the discussion but there is so little considered debate that they arenít being heard.

1. Trans rights werenít a hot topic three years ago. No one cared unless they were personally involved.

2. The real wins in trans equality happened 14 and then 8 years ago.

3. The proposed changes are small in comparison to the previous ones.

5. While the issues being discussed sometime focus on the proposed changes, mostly they donít. Whatís being talked about are emotive, hot button, issues like Ďcotton ceilingí, the treatment of trans children and bathroom predators.

4. Groups like A Womanís Place, Gendered Intelligence and Fair Play For Woman all seem to have more money than is reasonable, none of them are charities or registered companies, none have a traceable management structure, there are no boards of directors. The people fronting them arenít conspicuously wealthy enough to be funding them. The womenís movement has never had any money up until now. Ive asked loads of questions of them about their funding stream, Iíve been consistently told to fuck off.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 12, 2018, 12:48:16 PM
Itís been a recent Trans activists tactic to try and get to the bottom of the legal structure of some of the feminist organisations fighting the GRA changes. The reason is to try and get them prosecuted for breaches of the Equalty Act or to join them mob handed, take them over and close them down.

Itís all about silencing them.

They are doing admirably at keeping them at bay.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 12, 2018, 01:15:29 PM
Iím disappointed to see that you imagine that asking where an organisationís money is coming from is a silencing tactic. That must lead to interesting conversation with the Inland Revenue.

If itís any consolation to you, weíve been asking about where the money is coming from here in Ireland for the keep the 8th amendment campaign and they are still trying to oppressing womenís reproductive choices and have as many posters showing Ďaborted foetusesí at far as the eye can see, as they ever did, so it doesnít really work.

Itís quite ironic too, after you claimed that there was a financial medical conspricy to promote Ďtrans nessí and have failed to explain how that works, despite being asked repeatedly.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 12, 2018, 01:23:01 PM
Oh, note to self. Must set up a direct debit to A Womens Place.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 12, 2018, 01:23:26 PM
Quote
There wasn't any evidence that the changes were unproblematic in Ireland.

As Iíve explained, there is evidence that the changes were unproblematic, a Committee, which is the Irish versions of a judicial review, was held, submissions were invited from all intrested parties and a judge made a judgement. I honestly, donít know how the impact of any law could be more closely examined.

What would you have done differently?

Youíre right in saying that Ireland is culturally different to the U.K. Other countries that have adopted a self identification system are also different to the U.K. Canada, Malta, Mexico, Norway and the State of California are all different both from the U.K. and distinct enough from each other to show that itís a system that can and does work in many different environments.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 12, 2018, 01:47:03 PM
The only evidence was that there were no discernible cases of fraud in the filing of statutory declarations over that short time frame. Nothing beyond that. And nothing at all to show it hasnít been unproblematic in the small selection of countries quoted.

Its frankly weird that you expect me to engage in any of your demands after youíve called me a liar, a terf, said my posts were shit and threatened to rip Blythe apart. And then you expect people to engage with you in sensible discussion. Post away and I will too but Iím not relating to that sort of dialogue.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 12, 2018, 02:17:34 PM
The only evidence was that there were no discernible cases of fraud in the filing of statutory declarations over that short time frame. Nothing beyond that. And nothing at all to show it hasnít been unproblematic in the small selection of countries quoted
.

Repeating this doesnít make it true. Iíve explained that the judicial review type thing happen in Ireland. Iím see thatís not good enough for you but it doesnít change the fact that it happened.


Quote
Its frankly weird that you expect me to engage in any of your demands after youíve called me a liar, a terf, said my posts were shit and threatened to rip Blythe apart. And then you expect people to engage with you in sensible discussion. Post away and I will too but Iím not relating to that sort of dialogue.

You really donít have a gift for accurate reportage.

I didnít threaten to rip Blyth apart, I said I was tempted to rip her post apart.

I think that Blythe was bang out of order to start a deliberately inflammatory thread and that her threat to report the former GBer to her CLP were awful. I also know that for all of her enthusiasm in the wrong direction, Blythe, is actually reasonable enough to listen to criticism and, if not actually agree with it, take it on board. She will also read and digest posts that she doesnít agree with.

Youíre a different kettle of fish. You have continued to repeat the same points over and over again, even when theyíve been proved to be wrong and made outrageous claim that you canít substantiate. Iím sorry that youíve taken exception to my contraction of this behaviour to Ďshití so Iíll withdraw that. I should have said that they were in bad faith, misleading, discriminatory and deliberately inflammatory.

 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 12, 2018, 02:26:30 PM
Itís still there. You said to Blythe :

ďMy first instinct is to rip you apartĒ

Not ďyour postĒ.

ďYouĒ.

That pretty much deals with every other point youíve just made.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 12, 2018, 02:26:54 PM
Thanks to Sorted and her memory the size of an elephant who has just reminded me that I did not threaten to report an ex-gber on FB and to the Labour Party, I told her she was bringing the Party into disrepute for her treatment of a sexual abuse victim and the ex-gber then offered me her constituency name and number.

Sigh.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: MissRosie on May 12, 2018, 02:39:31 PM

What I have found is that any dissenting voice, anyone who stands with transwomen is accused of silencing women. That usually that comes after the accusation of being a man.



This matches my experience also.

Quote
Letís be honest, there are transwomen out there behaving appallingly. But there are also plenty of cis women out there behaving appallingly.

accurate.

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There is no silencing you because, and you know this, you are the far more powerful group in this.

Yes. With 80% of the mainstream media pushing the same anti trans hysteria, the "being silenced" card is about as genuine the "why aren't we allowed to talk about immigration" question being asked on every single major platform ad infinitum.

The idea that there is suddenly a highly powerful, belligerent force behind the fight for trans rights is laughable to those genuinely engaged in the fight for trans rights (letís recognise genuine TRAís are NOT the people acting like shitheads on twitter). Every tiny step that is achieved in law to improve the lives of a highly misunderstood and vilified minority has been accomplished through DECADES of debate, clinical research and grassroots activism - so the unwillingness to engage over issues that have already been fought for does not come as a surprise. If every time there was an amendment to interfamilial adoption laws, we had to go right back to square one of debating whether or not I can really call my kid my kid (ďbecause biology saysÖĒ), Iíd be pretty unwilling to Ďdebateí also.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: MissRosie on May 12, 2018, 02:45:27 PM
PS are we really pretending we thought Top was literally threatening to rip a human person apart rather than the argument posed? Really?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 12, 2018, 02:48:56 PM
Itís still there. You said to Blythe :

ďMy first instinct is to rip you apartĒ

Not ďyour postĒ.

ďYouĒ.

That pretty much deals with every other point youíve just made.

And, if you perceive that as being a threat of violence, it also deals with your claims of death threats.

Blythe is obviously pissed off with what Iíve said but sheís not claiming that Iíve made a violent threat. Youíre seeing sinister where the party to whom my comment was directed isnít.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Lyco on May 12, 2018, 02:49:16 PM
There's a lot of talk of silencing on this thread.

This is what silencing looks like.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/yuVdHsUjLH_FC_72v47s7aHQP2KMA88faATFIMsmIRdJGwei30pAmoleeV6LFxdvrN2tkKSS1hGyHJL10d4Srz-jjOkXHU95S8C0lRO_x1qn2G77PATyFaErQATKUrR0h6bet1fU40V-Pu5vpS_fEQqtwNYCKuuIYDJgmV6kKSB299awr4CSFEIKZ8NSxL9HPvho7y2jMFvGtzwIGkYjUndCoCSW5vWj1LLJKeFoI91eli1XVLxiutqTEA5pRcO81Z8llL8Wexpu784PXqggNABR1UHJkWh0SWuYs-UVfTrPjm7qxIAkbwZUeQPl0Rbo4gSuzh-DJYEDaj6PEEbCKrOyOVYPOxaHzGa3O2dF5QJ_gdhB_-evpt74aOW9vT687Pq8Hh3rh4NnG_9wzWgJesq-dO0PjPlVy5nTmscwSJY15kfKazvT2IaMPPsxNsKv_tuvuqH5ITZ9iBvJVU3gx-nuDfp0AfNqOo0__NX6HCnNVPHBe_vmwvHgrPw2R3WkgHQJyscxy-d5dwjedk6LsPbeCZrb6yUTlg9lE9vCF6bkrzUkPij1Tw1aXuvHTyIDKeDTY2ui8z3h-2X5RGnhTC4sFBNwkD8iGmghBuOY=w1280-h703-no)
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 12, 2018, 02:52:06 PM
Thanks to Sorted and her memory the size of an elephant who has just reminded me that I did not threaten to report an ex-gber on FB and to the Labour Party, I told her she was bringing the Party into disrepute for her treatment of a sexual abuse victim and the ex-gber then offered me her constituency name and number.

Sigh.

Iíve gone back and checked, (my conversation with the former GBer was writtrn) and what Iíve related here, is what was related to me. That GBer was left with the impression that you were going to report her. She was frightened. If that was a genuine misunderstanding, you need to make that clear.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Lyco on May 12, 2018, 02:54:31 PM
Repeating this doesnít make it true. Iíve explained that the judicial review type thing happen in Ireland. Iím see thatís not good enough for you but it doesnít change the fact that it happened.

And this is another common thing. Any supporting evidence is dismissed if it doesn't give the 'right' answer.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 12, 2018, 04:07:06 PM
Any supporting evidence is dismissed if it doesnít support what it claims to support.

Top suggesting her first reponse was to ďrip Blythe apartĒ was given as an example of her using intimidating language and being abusive and why itís odd that anyone would be prepared to engage with that.

Her denying that she said it when it was there in black and white, is another good reason. Indeed she went further and mocked me for inaccurate reporting of it.

Thereís a difference between people trying very hard to silence and them succeeding. Thankfully.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 12, 2018, 04:22:29 PM
Thanks to Sorted and her memory the size of an elephant who has just reminded me that I did not threaten to report an ex-gber on FB and to the Labour Party, I told her she was bringing the Party into disrepute for her treatment of a sexual abuse victim and the ex-gber then offered me her constituency name and number.

Sigh.

Iíve gone back and checked, (my conversation with the former GBer was writtrn) and what Iíve related here, is what was related to me. That GBer was left with the impression that you were going to report her. She was frightened. If that was a genuine misunderstanding, you need to make that clear.

She seems to have deleted the whole thread or I could have copied and pasted. I think she even said Report me then.
I did nothing but say she was bringing the Party into disrepute.
I am not sure she was frightened though as a few weeks ago she was arguing on my Facebook about something trans related.



Regarding the phrase rip you apart. I won't rise to that kind of dramatic language. It's baiting and I'm not going to be put off posting my opinion.

Also pages back you suggested I needed to understand about how parliamentary committees worked.
I do. That is why I specifically said Sheila Jeffrey's was invited to submit, I linked her letter but only trans groups were invited to give testimony. The list was also linked.
Now it's only my opinion but I feel that more weight is given to those there giving evidence where questions can go back and forth, than just submitting letters.
That's my opinion. I can't prove it.

I don't think this thread is particularly inflammatory either. I'm hopping mad that lesbians are getting any kind of grief about the cotton ceiling, it's ridiculous. We all have our sexual preferences and boundaries and they shouldn't even be up for debate. It's personal choice.
But sadly, and whilst it may well only be a small group of transactivists and rather silly people like Riley H, the idea has spread quite far. I'm really saddened that Stonewall who are supposed to be to represent all the groups in LGBT seem to be more focused on the T.
There are now numerous groups on the Internet advocating drop the T. That feeling hasn't come from nowhere, its a reaction to things like the cotton ceiling.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 12, 2018, 04:32:48 PM
Stonewall pretty much only represent the ďTĒ now.

 Iím pretty sure on lesbian day of visibility they had that all male football team as their backdrop. It didnít even have the token afterthought woman they snuck in on that link that I posted.

And I thought ďtoday of all days there will something about dykesĒ and there was this message about how on lesbian day of visibility we need to focus more on the marginalised lesbians like disabled and trans lesbians.Ē

You couldnít make it up. They trans-centre pretty much every issue.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 12, 2018, 04:50:04 PM
Quote
Regarding the phrase rip you apart. I won't rise to that kind of dramatic language. It's baiting and I'm not going to be put off posting my opinion.


Do I need to remind you of when you said youíd fight Wongy?  ;D

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 12, 2018, 05:16:08 PM
I don't think this thread is particularly inflammatory either. I'm hopping mad that lesbians are getting any kind of grief about the cotton ceiling, it's ridiculous. We all have our sexual preferences and boundaries and they shouldn't even be up for debate. It's personal choice[/quote].

It is inflammatory to paint any group as sexual predators and thatís exactly the under tone of your opening post, Ďthe trans are coming to get usí.

Of course who any of us have sex with is our own choice. You asking the question suggested that itís open for debate, that someone else, in this case trans people, are calling into question the idea of sexual autonomy.

There should be no debate about this. It should be questioned that any woman should have sex wth anyone they donít want to have sex with.

Quote
But sadly, and whilst it may well only be a small group of transactivists and rather silly people like Riley H, the idea has spread quite far.

Yes, itís even spread as far as GingerBeer, by you. Here in this thread you started. It would be lovely if you didnít do that again.


Quote
I'm really saddened that Stonewall who are supposed to be to represent all the groups in LGBT seem to be more focused on the T.

Thatís absolutely true, Stonewall is currently focused on the ĎTí. It has been their campaigning strategy, since their inception, to tackle one issue at a time. They have the wits to understand that a scattergun approach to civil rights wouldnít be effective. In could be argued that focusing on equal marriage was exclusionary becasue not everyone wanted to get married. However, even those who didnít or donít want to get married have benefited from having that freedom, it has improved the social inclusion of gay people. Even young gay kids, well below the age of consent are impacted by equal marriage becasue it allows them to see an adulthood where they are part of wider society, where they are fully included.

You can argue that the full inclusion of trans people by updating the GRA, does nothing for lesbians but then, you can also argue that AIDS education does nothing for lesbians. Doing something for lesbians doesnít have to be central to everything Stonewall does. However, we all benefit from wider social acceptance. Every day.

Quote
There are now numerous groups on the Internet advocating drop the T. That feeling hasn't come from nowhere, its a reaction to things like the cotton ceiling.

Stonewallís inclusion of the T is quite recent, certainly during Ruthís leadership. It was contentious well before the cotton ceiling slur became a thing. Ms Rose, has kindly provided an explanation for cotton ceilings, hopefully, it can be put to bed now but your bed, obviously.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 12, 2018, 05:31:36 PM
Any supporting evidence is dismissed if it doesnít support what it claims to support.

Top suggesting her first reponse was to ďrip Blythe apartĒ was given as an example of her using intimidating language and being abusive and why itís odd that anyone would be prepared to engage with that.

Her denying that she said it when it was there in black and white, is another good reason. Indeed she went further and mocked me for inaccurate reporting of it.

Thereís a difference between people trying very hard to silence and them succeeding. Thankfully.

Trying to present my use of a fairly well known phrase as a violent threat is also an attempt at silencing, it has allowed you to sidestep the issue of the Lib Dem LGBT twitter feed being subjected to an organised and concerted attempt to shut it down on polling day. An attack on democracy and the L, G and Bs they were trying to support. Fortunately, this attempt to silencing, is transparent enough to read transphobic (and environmentally damaging ) leaflet through.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 12, 2018, 05:37:52 PM
http://amp.timeinc.net/time/4324687/even-in-liberal-communities-transgender-bathroom-laws-worry-parents?__twitter_impression=true (http://amp.timeinc.net/time/4324687/even-in-liberal-communities-transgender-bathroom-laws-worry-parents?__twitter_impression=true)

Worrying that the authorities were too worried about committing an offence to challenge this guy. And doesnít bode well considering how many sex offenders we currently have on the register for voyeurism.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: MissRosie on May 12, 2018, 06:34:06 PM
Reforms to the GRA wonít make voyeurism legal.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 12, 2018, 06:48:53 PM
How would the police even prove voyeurism? Guy with beard caught peeping under womanís cubicle. Thatís usually the evidence they need. This guy with the beard is just sitting in the middle of the changing room where the girls school swim team are meant to get changed.

How can he even be challenged for voyeurism?

And no one knows how the wide spread perception of the fact that self definition is enough for legal gender will impact on these situations or how the law will be framed.

In some jurisdictions, you can be accused of an offence for challenging someone is what they say they are. They couldnít get rid of the beardie guy in this example for that reason.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 12, 2018, 06:51:23 PM
Everybody knows that Miss Rosie but it will make girls and women less likely to use mixed facilities for fear of it.

Mixed changing rooms have corresponded with an increase of voyeuristic crimes and sexual assaults in Canada.

Mixed facilities are problematic for lots of reasons.

I suspect we are stuck with them unless men get fed up like the men at Somerville college, Oxford.
http://cherwell.org/2018/05/06/dirt-protest-against-somervilles-newly-gender-neutral-toilets/


Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: MissRosie on May 12, 2018, 07:01:50 PM
We're not talking about creating mixed spaces. The proposed reforms to the GRA won't alter the current law on segregated spaces. As this article from the Oxford Human Rights hub outlines, denying trans people beneficial reforms based on a perceived threat by non trans people is neither fair nor logical. http://ohrh.law.ox.ac.uk/gender-recognition-self-determination-and-segregated-space/ (http://ohrh.law.ox.ac.uk/gender-recognition-self-determination-and-segregated-space/)
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 12, 2018, 07:08:50 PM
It will make it easier for men to access womenís spaces unchallenged.

That article is just one debaterís opinion. As with all human rights, one groups rights have to be balanced with other groups human rights and the good of the community overall. They arenít trump cards in the U.K.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 12, 2018, 07:22:38 PM
So youíve got beardie guy in the women and girls changing room because the staff will for sued for asking him to prove he is a woman. Youíve got 7-18 year old girls crowded into a one shower facility in the family room to avoid beardie guy and youíve got the trans man (who might be beardie too) getting changed with them because he doesnít want to go into the mens changing room.

This is men really spreading their legs out and women cowering in the corner. In the name of f.cking equality.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 12, 2018, 07:33:23 PM
Male pattern criminal behaviour persists even after transition. That's pretty shocking isn't it?
Therefore women and girls remain at risk even when sharing with transwomen either in a changing room or in prison.
With self id it's very likely that men who want access to females will take advantage of the new rules.
In one prison in London alone 11 out of the 22sex offenders are currently saying they id as women. I don't believe for one second that they are genuine and that's a problem.

I am a teacher and mother of two girls, it's my experience that girls are excruciatingly embarrassed about their bodies and changing.
Why should that feeling be added to because we have to make them share changing facilities?

I'm older but I don't want to share either.

Here is an interesting article about toilets.
http://manfridayuk.org/2018/04/27/the-problem-with-gender-neutral-toilets/



Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: MissRosie on May 12, 2018, 07:57:41 PM
 As already discussed, the absence of an increase in abusive behaviour in such situations since the creation of the GRA in 2004 is significant when assessing the impact beneficial reforms for one group might have in relation to the wider community. Also the logistics of the scenario in the article you shared don't match up with the standard for swimming pools in Britain - entirely communal changing spaces are not the norm, and swimming pools close to the public when they have school sessions and youth lessons. Is your assertion regarding the criminality of trans women referring to That Swedish Study?
 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 12, 2018, 08:07:14 PM
As already discussed, the absence of an increase in abusive behaviour in such situations since the creation of the GRA in 2004 is significant when assessing the impact beneficial reforms for one group might have in relation to the wider community. Also the logistics of the scenario in the article you shared don't match up with the standard for swimming pools in Britain - entirely communal changing spaces are not the norm, and swimming pools close to the public when they have school sessions and youth lessons. Is your assertion regarding the criminality of trans women referring to That Swedish Study?

There has been no one measuring abuse since 2004. But itís irrelevant. The old GRA required objective proof including medical proof of transition. The new one will be by self Id only. So lack of abuse under the old system wouldnít predict diddly squat about potential abuse under the new one.

If youíve got a large girls swimming class they may weíll need to use the communal area.

Are we really been lectured on the layout of English and Welsh swimming pools from Finland?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 12, 2018, 08:16:12 PM
It looks like it.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: MissRosie on May 12, 2018, 08:19:53 PM
Lol sorry but I do still live in the UK for around 6 months of every year if it makes you feel any less offended by me mentioning my observations of them?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 12, 2018, 08:22:22 PM
Apologies. I misread that you lived in Helsinki. I didnít register the ďmostlyĒ qualification. I was envisaging you looking up blue prints on the net.

 It doesnít matter that itís a swimming pool. It could be a bunch of badminton players from a youth group at a leisure centre.

Iíve just realised itís Saturday night and Iím debating the layout of swimming pools. FFS. And my other half is pipping the horn at me in irritation.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Trifle on May 12, 2018, 08:29:07 PM
This is one of the leaders of the protest against Sarah Brown, about four minutes in, she starts a slide show with photos of trans women, some taken from the internet without their consent, some taken in public without their consent, so that she can mock their appearance. Itís cruel, nasty and utterly unnecessary. It dehumanise the people whoís photos she uses and itís dehumanising for all trans women.

Mocking and jeering other women appearance has no place in my feminism, doing it to a small, already marginalised group of women is sickening. Do watch from the beginning, she introduces herself as a transphobe, to a warm reception.

Incidentally, she has also been a guest speaker at A Womanís Place, the group who have been protested against by the folks in masks that we touched on earlier.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RF4OHrBoCCw (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RF4OHrBoCCw)

This cruel, nasty, dehumanising speech, is the debate that Betty is so keen to defend. If you have a problem with trans women, if maybe they make you a bit uncomfortable to the point where you canít see them as fully human, imagine that this video shows a race or religion of people and remember that the Nazis didnít start off with gas chambers, they started off with meetings.

I watched the video Top posted here earlier. I then clicked on another video underneath it which interestingly showed a trans woman at the same talk thanking the speaker for her talk and agreeing with it, whilst condemning the bullies shouting outside.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=smV5In_BBGM
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 12, 2018, 08:48:59 PM
Thanks Trifle. Thatís very helpful. They are pretending trans women who support these meetings donít exist, for some reason.

I didnít watch the first one. Because contrary to Topís claim Iíd never defended it or even commented on it in the first place.

And my reference to genitals being ďunsurprisinglyĒ mentioned in heckles aimed at Sarah Brown was to explain that they were probably protesting at her use of the term ďsuck my balls.Ē
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 12, 2018, 09:38:35 PM
I watched the video Top posted here earlier. I then clicked on another video underneath it which interestingly showed a trans woman at the same talk thanking the speaker for her talk and agreeing with it, whilst condemning the bullies shouting outside.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=smV5In_BBGM

Itís weird, isnít it? Itís like the one black person at the alt right rally that the alt right always point to, somthat they can announce that theyíre not really racist. Weíre got a gay man here in Ireland, called Paddy Manning whoís a bit of a darling of the conservatives, he wasnít in favour of equal marriage and now heís not in favour of repealing the 8th Amendment, of course, heís not typical or even representative but he gets loads of attention.

Do you think that a trans woman speaking excuses that behaviour or makes it acceptable?

If itís any help at all, hereís the original protagonist talking about what she really wants and displaying her feelings about trans people:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/lMMUyW1I6sr22tTMMFh_gbwDnTgCEYkrHGBq2pQhbudbr7twUP1SNKHvouBuBdK37eQwxp1dt9ufjnC8nTZYJQ53QEf6ALdxW2NLFNqGmtPIHQpzI59ptLsEnSscSaKMFwTWzaNRfAri2KyRBrUvibtEvJYE144haMA2yNK2RpThJCgVlmoK2RjwJBeiiMqSEQdF4ZZTMsipMqV38D6JN0MHmVyw86-GyBZ9Wnv7Ja4rZ2rgveoDj53h1ut4RHdNWLJ_LEi8IHvQfRPoKNISONkvJclzPYbNeRX4REq_E64WVBXwc_N9kyJ2NqID7T87-miYBw88cBMOfIPVa8FdWTbaChxuV077Xvhkrgs7LZm-ve9XmTwCOH8b45yoBp4bf_ezyn0NNCxyPeu7YwStsIBHTbrrQZiXvWyenV5FRPtSB6m6wyBNA0wpuwpWftU4vmlTzlkuIJrGRm-CTbKukjuDxNFyMu47_Pv8KBEacpjq2z8MTTgyhv6lJou1192l4zOYORjdJmy3Wx3mUWI-xm0GRGxl-_uzru18y7-F8kKS4xTowgwi_aBD2l9mpOnCQ3tuPEoyQ_aepRI_Ia_tBH_tBMqfrIX0L-L2-fWq=w677-h849-no)


Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 12, 2018, 10:16:10 PM

I watched the video Top posted here earlier. I then clicked on another video underneath it which interestingly showed a trans woman at the same talk thanking the speaker for her talk and agreeing with it, whilst condemning the bullies shouting outside.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=smV5In_BBGM

She comes across really well in the intro.

There is something quite ghoulish and uniquely arrogant about womens voices from outside the meeting chanting ďtrans rights are human rightsĒ as they try to drown out a transsexual woman talking from her lived experience.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 12, 2018, 10:39:37 PM
Male pattern criminal behaviour persists even after transition. That's pretty shocking isn't it?
Therefore women and girls remain at risk even when sharing with transwomen either in a changing room or in prison.

It would indeed be shocking if it were true but itís not, so itís just more transphobic moral panic. Before I get into the facts, which I know are boring and skippable, Iíd like to point out that repeating transphobic lies, isnít just bad for trans people and itís awful for trans people, itís also bad for the wider population, women in particular, because it causes them to live In fear.

The idea that trans women Ďretained male offending patternsí came from a Swedish study, hereís what, Cecilia Djehne, the author, of that study had to say:

The individual in the image who is making claims about trans criminality, specifically rape likelihood, is misrepresenting the study findings. The study as a whole covers the period between 1973 and 2003. If one divides the cohort into two groups, 1973 to 1988 and 1989 to 2003, one observes that for the latter group (1989Ė2003), differences in mortality, suicide attempts and crime disappear. This means that for the 1989 to 2003 group, we did not find a male pattern of criminality.

Well how about that. What is the reason Djehne gives for this though?

The difference we observed between the 1989 to 2003 cohort and the control group is that the trans cohort group accessed more mental health care, which is appropriate given the level of ongoing discrimination the group faces. What the data tells us is that things are getting measurably better and the issues we found affecting the 1973 to 1988 cohort group likely reflects a time when trans health and psychological care was less effective and social stigma was far worse.

So, trans people around post 2003 donít have a male pattern of criminality, it was not measured amongst the cohort at all. The reason is because the crimes were poverty related crimes. As trans people gained more social and psychological support, the less of them lived in poverty, the less of they were turning to being prostitutes or stealing things to feed themselves.

Quote
With self id it's very likely that men who want access to females will take advantage of the new rules.
In one prison in London alone 11 out of the 22sex offenders are currently saying they id as women. I don't believe for one second that they are genuine and that's a problem.

This isnít true either.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/41-per-cent-trans-transgender-trans-women-prisoners-sex-offenders-false-study-statistic-this-is-why-a8072431.html



Quote
I am a teacher and mother of two girls, it's my experience that girls are excruciatingly embarrassed about their bodies and changing.
Why should that feeling be added to because we have to make them share changing facilities?

As Iíve repeatedly pointed out, the proposed changes have no impact on who uses which changing room, those laws were amended in 2004, with the GRA and 2010 with the Equality Act. If you didnít notice at the time, itís fair to assume that it didnít inpact you negatively.

Quotes taken from the Swedish studyís author, taken from here:

http://transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm (http://transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm)


Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 12, 2018, 10:45:35 PM
It's incredibly insulting to suggest that the transexuals who signed the letter saying they don't want self id are the same as the one black guy at a rightwing Rally. They feel that their struggle to get their GRCs will be belittled by anyone just writing a letter and then declaring they have now changed sex. Many of them also don't want to take womens spaces because they actually get our arguments.
Those trans women have started a movement to get their voices heard in this debate because they are being drowned out by the vociferous trans activists.  And there are lots of them. They are attacked on social media and yet they have direct experience and are being silenced and ridiculed by people like Top.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 12, 2018, 10:50:32 PM
There is something quite ghoulish and uniquely arrogant about womens voices from outside the meeting chanting ďtrans rights are human rightsĒ as they try to drown out a transsexual woman talking from her lived experience.

I know, if only they could have sent her a screenshot of what those whoíd invited her to speak really thought about working with her.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/lMMUyW1I6sr22tTMMFh_gbwDnTgCEYkrHGBq2pQhbudbr7twUP1SNKHvouBuBdK37eQwxp1dt9ufjnC8nTZYJQ53QEf6ALdxW2NLFNqGmtPIHQpzI59ptLsEnSscSaKMFwTWzaNRfAri2KyRBrUvibtEvJYE144haMA2yNK2RpThJCgVlmoK2RjwJBeiiMqSEQdF4ZZTMsipMqV38D6JN0MHmVyw86-GyBZ9Wnv7Ja4rZ2rgveoDj53h1ut4RHdNWLJ_LEi8IHvQfRPoKNISONkvJclzPYbNeRX4REq_E64WVBXwc_N9kyJ2NqID7T87-miYBw88cBMOfIPVa8FdWTbaChxuV077Xvhkrgs7LZm-ve9XmTwCOH8b45yoBp4bf_ezyn0NNCxyPeu7YwStsIBHTbrrQZiXvWyenV5FRPtSB6m6wyBNA0wpuwpWftU4vmlTzlkuIJrGRm-CTbKukjuDxNFyMu47_Pv8KBEacpjq2z8MTTgyhv6lJou1192l4zOYORjdJmy3Wx3mUWI-xm0GRGxl-_uzru18y7-F8kKS4xTowgwi_aBD2l9mpOnCQ3tuPEoyQ_aepRI_Ia_tBH_tBMqfrIX0L-L2-fWq=w677-h849-no)

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 12, 2018, 10:55:49 PM
They are attacked on social media

They certainly are.
https://mobile.twitter.com/KilgoreSprout/status/994611162988851201/photo/2
(http://funkyimg.com/i/2GgC7.jpeg) (http://funkyimg.com/view/2GgC7)
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Sorted. on May 12, 2018, 10:59:20 PM
^i wouldnít trust a thing from that account.   Personally.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 12, 2018, 11:07:42 PM
They feel that their struggle to get their GRCs will be belittled by anyone just writing a letter and then declaring they have now changed sex. Many of them also don't want to take womens spaces because they actually get our arguments
.


Sixteen people signed that letter to the Guardian. That makes them sixteen people, not representitive of a whole community, their personal experience is valuable as personal experience but itís not data. Iím not the one here belittling trans women, Iím not the one who doesnít believe that they are women, I obviously very strongly believe that trans women are women. Iím not claiming that they are violent offfenders, not safe to continue to be allowed into public loos. If you donít want these women to feel belittled, maybe you could stop belittling them? Otherwise it just looks like concern trolling. For what itís worth, Debbie Hayton and I are quite pally on twitter.

Someone Ďgettingí your argument doesnít make it right.


Quote
Those trans women have started a movement to get their voices heard in this debate because they are being drowned out by the vociferous trans activists.  And there are lots of them. They are attacked on social media and yet they have direct experience and are being silenced and ridiculed by people like Top.

The Ďsilencingí trope is getting tedious, Iíve spent hours arguing my corner here. Telling you that you are wrong and providing evidence to prove you are wrong, isnít silencing you. This is the Ďdebateí youíre asking for. Except youíre not looking fo debate, youíre looking for total capitulation to the fibs youíre recycling.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 12, 2018, 11:10:03 PM
^i wouldnít trust a thing from that account.   Personally.

Why not?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 12, 2018, 11:18:37 PM
Top, you can keep saying things aren't true, but one article from the Independent doesn't prove anything.
Here is an article that quotes prison staff being increasingly worried at the numbers of prisoners id-ing as women.
I wasn't even quoting from Fairplay for Women.  I was talking about one specific prison I read about, Wandsworth or Wormwood where 11 out of 22 sex offenders had requested to be treated as women and the prison service were despairing.
  I can't find the source but it was a newspaper article in January. 
Do you seriously think men will not pretend in order to get away from a male prison and get into a female one?
You think that everyone will be genuine?

This is what is so stupid, Bergdorf and Jenner the other night wouldn't acknowledge that men will use the proposed law, there won't be anything trans about them, they will just take advantage. 
An acknowledgement of that possibility would actually be a starting point for a dialogue between the two opposing sides. 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Sorted. on May 12, 2018, 11:21:15 PM
^i wouldnít trust a thing from that account.   Personally.

Why not?

I have reservations as to itís agenda, iíve seen abuse and misinformation.  Iíve seen them excuse/minimise violent sexual language against women.  Iím just personally  uneasy with it.   Iíve read itís a bloke but I donít know that for a fact.   
If I want to read up on a subject and try to understand and not get sucked into polarisation (which I do) itís not in a tone I can get along with.

  Everyone else is, of course, free to enjoy their offerings.   
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 12, 2018, 11:29:23 PM
They feel that their struggle to get their GRCs will be belittled by anyone just writing a letter and then declaring they have now changed sex. Many of them also don't want to take womens spaces because they actually get our arguments
.


Sixteen people signed that letter to the Guardian. That makes them sixteen people, not representitive of a whole community, their personal experience is valuable as personal experience but itís not data. Iím not the one here belittling trans women, Iím not the one who doesnít believe that they are women, I obviously very strongly believe that trans women are women. Iím not claiming that they are violent offfenders, not safe to continue to be allowed into public loos. If you donít want these women to feel belittled, maybe you could stop belittling them? Otherwise it just looks like concern trolling. For what itís worth, Debbie Hayton and I are quite pally on twitter.

Someone Ďgettingí your argument doesnít make it right.


Quote
Those trans women have started a movement to get their voices heard in this debate because they are being drowned out by the vociferous trans activists.  And there are lots of them. They are attacked on social media and yet they have direct experience and are being silenced and ridiculed by people like Top.

The Ďsilencingí trope is getting tedious, Iíve spent hours arguing my corner here. Telling you that you are wrong and providing evidence to prove you are wrong, isnít silencing you. This is the Ďdebateí youíre asking for. Except youíre not looking fo debate, youíre looking for total capitulation to the fibs youíre recycling.

But you did belittle a trans woman with your black dude comment.

Are we supposed to be impressed that you are quite pally with Debbie on twitter? I sat opposite Debbie at a meeting recently and she likes my tweets .... so what?  Debbie Hayton feels the Trans movement is not representing her and those other trans women at all. 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Sorted. on May 12, 2018, 11:35:27 PM
^i wouldnít trust a thing from that account.   Personally.

Why not?

I have reservations as to itís agenda, iíve seen abuse and misinformation.  Iíve seen them excuse/minimise violent sexual language against women.  Iím just personally  uneasy with it.   Iíve read itís a bloke but I donít know that for a fact.   
If I want to read up on a subject and try to understand and not get sucked into polarisation (which I do) itís not in a tone I can get along with.

  Everyone else is, of course, free to enjoy their offerings.

ETA:

This particular tweet about speaking behind their backs is one such example of misinformation.  Kristina Harrison has tweeted this evening that it is a load of bollock and that they (her and Debbie Hatton). Have little time for or anything to do with Julia Long.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Sorted. on May 12, 2018, 11:40:04 PM
I canít pin her tweet here.. itís a retweet of the photo Wolfie posted with this above



Fool.  We have nothing to do with Julia Long & co.  We came into this fight of our own volition & we oppose extremes on both sides. Our main fight is vs your sexist, quasi religious zealotry, but we do not support ppl like the charming Dr Long.  Do enjoy your delusions though.


Misinformation and bullshit from all sides in this debate and in every other debate. It drives me cracked.

For the record and for balance..I donít look to Julia Long  for guidance either.


Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Chewwy on May 12, 2018, 11:49:53 PM
I'm quite glad that this topic has been raised on GB.  It's a shame that it's the only thread recently that's got traffic going and people returning, but there you go.

But it hasn't made me any clearer on the topic.  Except that I'll probably swerve Trans Pride this year as I'm so confused.

Good to hear you all speaking up.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 12, 2018, 11:52:29 PM
Quote
They feel that their struggle to get their GRCs will be belittled by anyone just writing a letter and then declaring they have now changed sex.

Hmm, but isn't that also a kind of gold star lesbianism authenticity argument though?

I've never really been clear about the way in which everyone's political credentials are whipped out to support an argument, except in the sense that we are of course talking about expertise and experience and these are valuable.  If now, if you all were to call me on my undoubted lack of feminist credentials I would slink off, but Wolfie is a wimp.  Don't be like Wolfie. 

Quote
There is no silencing you because, and you know this, you are the far more powerful group in this.

This is key for me.  Both sides believe they're punching up and it is for me much harder to determine in which direction which person is punching than it is in pretty much any other rights conflict. 

I keep thinking of a really good video from the recent Australian plebiscite in which somebody was talking about just how demeaning It Is to have your existence weighed in upon by people who know nothing about it. I wish I could find it, but it won't really change anything because everybody thinks they are the party under threat in this debate.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 13, 2018, 12:01:23 AM
I'm quite glad that this topic has been raised on GB.  It's a shame that it's the only thread recently that's got traffic going and people returning, but there you go.

But it hasn't made me any clearer on the topic.  Except that I'll probably swerve Trans Pride this year as I'm so confused.

Good to hear you all speaking up.

It's all very confusing and upsetting.  I was especially alarmed that people are so afraid to discuss it.  That's what freaked me out the most. Also everything has become so polarised.  I actually hate twitter and blame it for much of the nastiest stuff. But when no-one seems to be really discussing it, then you end up in places like Twitter to see what's going on.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 13, 2018, 12:10:05 AM
Quote
They feel that their struggle to get their GRCs will be belittled by anyone just writing a letter and then declaring they have now changed sex.

Hmm, but isn't that also a kind of gold star lesbianism authenticity argument though?


It is somewhat, but surely you see why they are upset.  They have suffered, gone through surgery, spent time living in role and then a bunch of people come along and just wave a piece of paper and say they are the opposite sex. 
But looking from the outside in a piece of paper isn't convincing to me, the cause isn't helped by ludicrous stories like the Police Officer who ids as non-binary and on days they feel like a woman they whip out their female id card so they can frisk women and on days they feel like a man they whip out their male id card.  I'm sorry but this is ridiculous.  If your gender is so slippery then maybe you just can't frisk people at all, in case your gender identity slips mid frisk ....

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 13, 2018, 12:12:10 AM
But you did belittle a trans woman with your black dude comment
.

Iím not actually belittling the black person with that comment either. I can see the expediency in a vilified minority aligning themselves with their oppressor. I donít blame women for doing their best to fit in the the patriarchy either. Personally, I was a working class kid, who jumped ship. In all of those cases I blame the system of oppression, not the individual making the best of their oppression.

My point is that my existence does not more to prove that there isnít a clas system, than Debbieís does to prove that trans people need gate keeping.

Do you know that a spouse can withhold permission to gain a GRC under the current legislation, so someone who meets all of the gatekeeping requirements, surgery and living in acquired gender, can be turned down if they have an abusive spouse who wonít let them? Do you really think thatís reasonable or o you think that thr law needs to change?



Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 13, 2018, 12:22:42 AM
But looking from the outside in a piece of paper isn't convincing to me, the cause isn't helped by ludicrous stories like the Police Officer who ids as non-binary and on days they feel like a woman they whip out their female id card so they can frisk women and on days they feel like a man they whip out their male id card.  I'm sorry but this is ridiculous.  If your gender is so slippery then maybe you just can't frisk people at all, in case your gender identity slips mid frisk ....

That would indeed be an insane situation but itís not what the change is legislation proposes. No one is looking for a part time GRC (and when I say Ďno oneí, that doesnít mean that it would be impossible to find some arsehole on twitter, but not what the legislation proposes).

The statutory declaration, is swearing that youíre the gender that you say you are, on the understanding that lying would get you up to seven years in jail.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 13, 2018, 12:47:20 AM
We have no idea what the new GRC proposals will require in the U.K. The Labour Party only requires verbal and temporary self id. No future commitment. No statutory declaration to breach.

And how would you prove breach of or fraudulently obtaining a stat Dec anyway? The person is saying they self id as that gender at the point of signing. If they id as something else the next day or signed it cynically you canít prove that they didnít id that way internally the day before. Maybe thatís why they found no evidence of fraud in Ireland. They couldnít prove it wasnít how the person felt at the time.

And of course there are many ways of simplifying the GRC to remove obvious injustices without making it self identification only.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 13, 2018, 12:49:08 AM
Top, you can keep saying things aren't true, but one article from the Independent doesn't prove anything
.


Not all evidence is equal, Iíll give you that but I didnít just quote one article, I gave you the facts on the study that youíd alluded to from the author of that study. Thatís fairly definitive.

The article from the Independant provides links to other studies, itís not just a journalist, off the cuff.


Quote
Here is an article that quotes prison staff being increasingly worried at the numbers of prisoners id-ing as women.
I wasn't even quoting from Fairplay for Women.  I was talking about one specific prison I read about, Wandsworth or Wormwood where 11 out of 22 sex offenders had requested to be treated as women and the prison service were despairing.

You havenít linked to any article.



Quote
Do you seriously think men will not pretend in order to get away from a male prison and get into a female one?

I think that there is a fair chance that a small number of men will attempt to do that.

Iíd go further and assume that this type of dishonesty is the kind of thing that the prison service is used to dealing with. That, if Johnny the sex offender announced that he was a lady one morning, that they wouldnít immediately call a van to pop him off to lady prison.

In fact, because I read Maria Millers report, I know that this is something that both the prison service and those who treat trans offenders have both flagged as a potential problem and suggested solutions for and also noted that there will be cases for which there are no solutions to keep everyone safe.

I think that itís a better idea to listen to those experts, thr people actually in the ground than to take any notice of Ďwomení. Not because all women should be dismissed as a class but because bring a woman isnít a qualification to to advise on this issue. Now, the probation service is basically run by women but they not their by dint of their Ďbiologyí, they are there because they are suitably qualified.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 13, 2018, 12:57:14 AM
http://dailycaller.com/2018/05/12/linguistic-minefield-of-politically-correct-tranny/

Here is another trans voice calling out the transcult. It's entertaining too.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 13, 2018, 12:57:25 AM
We have no idea what the new GRC proposals will require in the U.K. The Labour Party only requires verbal and temporary self id. No future commitment. No statutory declaration to breach
.

What the Labour Party require now, self evidently has nothing to do with the proposed changes to the legislation becasue itís happening now, before those changes have even been announced. To conflate the two things is misleading.

Quote
And how would you prove breach of or fraudulently obtaining a stat Dec anyway? The person is saying they self id as that gender at the point of signing. If they id as something else the next day or signed it cynically you canít prove that they didnít id that way internally the day before. Maybe thatís why they found no evidence of fraud in Ireland. They couldnít prove it wasnít how the person felt at the time.

I suppose that would come down to what they were required to declare. If itís ĎMan I Feel Like A Womaní there could be some problems with proof. However, if they polititions maybe got some lawyers in, asked a few experts, Iím sure they could work out something a bit more solid.

ĎSelf IDí could still mean that you required someone to live Ďin roleí for two years, just that they wouldnít have to provide expensive and intrusive proof. How do you prove when you told your mum or started dressing appropriately? However, lying about it could still land them in jail for seven years.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 13, 2018, 01:02:31 AM
It could land them in jail for 7 years only if they had to sign a Stat Dec and it was possible to prove what was and wasnít in their head at the time of the declaration. Self Id alone means just that. No other proof required. Which so far exists as a concrete proposal only in the head of fantasists who chat bubbles on social media.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 13, 2018, 01:06:13 AM
Consulting women as a potentially effected group is part of the Equality Impact Assessment which is mandatory. If they donít do that adequately there should be a challenge under the diacrimation provisions of the ECHR and Human Rights Act. There is already a potential challenge because they have removed sex on the assessment list and replaced it with gender while sex is still protected.

Thr Labour Party have already answered that challenge and feel that their legal position is solid. ĎConsulting Womení is really nebulous as a concept. They canít reasonably be expected to ask every women, they could claim that they had asked me and Julie in accounts to tick that box. Theyíd be on safe ground throwing it out at conference but will probably just take it to the diversity exec.

You obviously feel strongly about this but the people putting together the petition asking for Ďwomení to be consulted have only got to 11k signatures. The petition to have someone follow Boris Johnson around with a tuba is more popular (I read that on twitter and thought it was funny, I have no solid evidence of the tuba petition but Boaty McBoatface).
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 13, 2018, 01:18:18 AM
It could land them in jail for 7 years only if they had to sign a Stat Dec and it was possible to prove what was and wasnít in their head at the time of the declaration. Self Id alone means just that. No other proof required. Which so far exists as a concrete proposal only in the head of fantasists who chat bubbles on social media.

No, youíre assuming that the stat dec will be based around Ďfeelingsí and, as you say youíve no evidence for that, it could well be based around lived experience, which is more provable but only if the need arises to actually prove it.

When I was the executor of a will, dealing with a fair amount of money, I only had to sign a stat dec to say I wouldnít help myself to any. I didnít have to prove that I wasnít going to steal from the estate but if I had got sticky fingers, I was looking at seven years in jail.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 13, 2018, 01:30:23 AM
Self Id is a declaration of a state of mind. A state of mind held only at the time of declaration. Nothing can disprove that other than a contemporaneous video recording of the person making the declaration whilst saying ďthis is not true.Ē

Gender Recognition based on self Id alone which is what is being suggested requires no objective evidence whatsoever and could be based on a Labour Party type basis of no documentation, merely ďI say so therefore I amĒ or a Stat Dec or affidavit. But as itís not disprovable it offers no protection against fraud anyway.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 13, 2018, 01:42:43 AM
 (Blythe at your leisure could you please tell MN that I'm a woman to the best of your knowledge cos they've got a bit fixated on the possibility that I'm an Australian potato and in my exasperation I tagged you.  Sorry.)
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: hellohowareyoutoday on May 13, 2018, 01:58:29 AM
Wolfie, we can throw you on the barbie with some shrimp
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 13, 2018, 02:09:12 AM
It's ok, I said I was gay and they believed me so they could start on the cotton ceiling instead.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Chewwy on May 13, 2018, 02:22:48 AM
I also think it's a shame that a lot of you (parents or not) f*cked off to Mumsnet, and took your debate and wit there. 

But that's for another thread, right?  Or until this one tails off and it all goes dead again.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 13, 2018, 02:44:44 AM
It's a great shame.  If there are a large number of us who really feel this way we should all sit down and have a think about how to do it. 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Chewwy on May 13, 2018, 03:05:59 AM
When you fall out with people on here, then there's less people to talk to.  Whereas Mumsnet, or whatever has a huge footfall / turnover of people.   And there's bob all we can do about that.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Lyco on May 13, 2018, 10:38:58 AM
One of the other things that miffs me about this debate is the language. Thereís plenty of evidence of it in this thread. Why is it that women, particularly lesbians who are opposed to these changes will use the term TIM and proudly state their right to do so but generally use the term transmen/man with no problem at all.

I do wonder if itís hypocrisy, or if itís because they simply donít want to look into the eyes of people they may know and be friends with and tell them flat out they donít respect them, they donít respect who they are and they certainly donít believe their gender.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 13, 2018, 10:51:42 AM
Lyco please could you explain exactly what you mean by "transwomen are women", in words that bear in mind that the only book I've read since 2014 is The Firm?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 13, 2018, 10:57:58 AM
Iíve never noticed anyone using the term TIM on this thread except Lyco. Iíve never used that term in my life. Not saying Iím going to waste any time on looking because itís just as disrespectful to mis-name people as TERFS.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 13, 2018, 10:59:57 AM
But you did belittle a trans woman with your black dude comment
.

Iím not actually belittling the black person with that comment either. I can see the expediency in a vilified minority aligning themselves with their oppressor. I donít blame women for doing their best to fit in the the patriarchy either. Personally, I was a working class kid, who jumped ship. In all of those cases I blame the system of oppression, not the individual making the best of their oppression.

My point is that my existence does not more to prove that there isnít a clas system, than Debbieís does to prove that trans people need gate keeping.

Do you know that a spouse can withhold permission to gain a GRC under the current legislation, so someone who meets all of the gatekeeping requirements, surgery and living in acquired gender, can be turned down if they have an abusive spouse who wonít let them? Do you really think thatís reasonable or o you think that thr law needs to change?

I did know that I think it's awful.  No spouse should have that power over another.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 13, 2018, 11:03:40 AM
They could just do a short amendment to get rid of that. Itís misleading to infer itís either self Id or no amendments at all.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 13, 2018, 11:10:24 AM
Lyco please could you explain exactly what you mean by "transwomen are women", in words that bear in mind that the only book I've read since 2014 is The Firm?

Mumsnet proving not learned enough about queer nuances again?

Iím sure a lot of them have to wipe arses and keep down jobs and other shenigans that people who play on the internet all day for decades donít have to do.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 13, 2018, 11:13:52 AM
It's a great shame.  If there are a large number of us who really feel this way we should all sit down and have a think about how to do it.

About GB or self id?

I didn't fuck off to Mumsnet.  I fucked off to work from dusk til dawn to save my school from wicked money grabbing child hating interim scum bags.
And succeeded.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 13, 2018, 11:17:40 AM
Iíve never noticed anyone using the term TIM on this thread except Lyco. Iíve never used that term in my life. Not saying Iím going to waste any time on looking because itís just as disrespectful to mis-name people as TERFS.

I did, Snowball.   I didn't really think about it, it's a short cut that I use like MtF or FtM.  Several pages back Lyco called me out on it and I asked what was offensive about it, she explained and I wouldnt use it again because I can see how its offensive.  I do use MtF and FtM though.  It's quick.  I can't imagine that's offensive.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Lyco on May 13, 2018, 11:27:02 AM
Mumsnet proving not learned enough about queer nuances again?

Iím sure a lot of them have to wipe arses and keep down jobs and other shenigans that people who play on the internet all day for decades donít have to do.

Betty, this reads to me like a particularly nasty dig at Wolfie.

I hope Iím wrong but most of us, even when debating someone on the other side, can manage to wring out a little bit of empathy for someone else health. Of course, if Iím wrong, and it isnít just a nasty, petty, vicious dig that frankly is beneath you, then do let me know.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 13, 2018, 11:28:42 AM
One of the other things that miffs me about this debate is the language. Thereís plenty of evidence of it in this thread. Why is it that women, particularly lesbians who are opposed to these changes will use the term TIM and proudly state their right to do so but generally use the term transmen/man with no problem at all.

I do wonder if itís hypocrisy, or if itís because they simply donít want to look into the eyes of people they may know and be friends with and tell them flat out they donít respect them, they donít respect who they are and they certainly donít believe their gender.

I am one of those kind of women that would use preferred pronouns.  I want to be polite and not cause offense.  I usually use the term trans woman or trans man but in print if I was rushing I might FtM or MtF.  I realise (As Ive just posted that TIM is offensive - and I am not one of the brigade that thinks shouting penis is ok at all).
But Lyco, I would like you to post an answer to Wolfie about what trans women are women means to you.

Because I do not believe trans women are women.  Rather, they are trans women.
We've all learned science.  We all know that you cannot change your sex.  A woman is an adult human female.
Female means having XX chromosomes.  You cannot change that.
Trans women can say they feel like women, (it isn't a feeling in my opinion) they can say they wish to be women, but they can not become a woman.  They can become trans women and we can support them and make sure they are protected in law.  But a woman is not a feeling.
When men (most recently Labour men) tell me that the above is a lie, it makes my blood boil and this is what makes other women's blood boil.  Words have meaning.  We can't misinterpret scientific and biological reality and there are NO girls brains or boys brains.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 13, 2018, 11:28:54 AM
? I didnít notice. So are there plenty of uses on this thread as alleged or not?

Not being someone who sits quacking on Mumsnet or Twitter hounding feminists as a full time job, I didnít even know what TIM meant. I dislike obscurring debates with acronyms that normal people donít hold the key to so I tend to avoid them. And if itís rude to use TIM itís rude to use TERF.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 13, 2018, 11:33:09 AM
Mumsnet proving not learned enough about queer nuances again?

Iím sure a lot of them have to wipe arses and keep down jobs and other shenigans that people who play on the internet all day for decades donít have to do.

Betty, this reads to me like a particularly nasty dig at Wolfie.

I hope Iím wrong but most of us, even when debating someone on the other side, can manage to wring out a little bit of empathy for someone else health. Of course, if Iím wrong, and it isnít just a nasty, petty, vicious dig that frankly is beneath you, then do let me know.

No, itís not. Itís an attack on the legion of unemployable trans activists who sit on forums like Mumsnet and Twitter day and night hounding feminists. Iíve no idea about the detail of Wolfieís personal circumstances. We are not connected socially.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 13, 2018, 11:44:08 AM
One of the other things that miffs me about this debate is the language. Thereís plenty of evidence of it in this thread. Why is it that women, particularly lesbians who are opposed to these changes will use the term TIM and proudly state their right to do so but generally use the term transmen/man with no problem at all.

I do wonder if itís hypocrisy, or if itís because they simply donít want to look into the eyes of people they may know and be friends with and tell them flat out they donít respect them, they donít respect who they are and they certainly donít believe their gender.

I am one of those kind of women that would use preferred pronouns.  I want to be polite and not cause offense.  I usually use the term trans woman or trans man but in print if I was rushing I might FtM or MtF.  I realise (As Ive just posted that TIM is offensive - and I am not one of the brigade that thinks shouting penis is ok at all).
But Lyco, I would like you to post an answer to Wolfie about what trans women are women means to you.

Because I do not believe trans women are women.  Rather, they are trans women.
We've all learned science.  We all know that you cannot change your sex.  A woman is an adult human female.
Female means having XX chromosomes.  You cannot change that.
Trans women can say they feel like women, (it isn't a feeling in my opinion) they can say they wish to be women, but they can not become a woman.  They can become trans women and we can support them and make sure they are protected in law.  But a woman is not a feeling.
When men (most recently Labour men) tell me that the above is a lie, it makes my blood boil and this is what makes other women's blood boil.  Words have meaning.  We can't misinterpret scientific and biological reality and there are NO girls brains or boys brains.

There are transwomen who identify as transwomen rather than as women per se.

Their preferred slogan would be ďtranswomen are transwomenĒ.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 13, 2018, 11:48:57 AM
Mumsnet proving not learned enough about queer nuances again?

Iím sure a lot of them have to wipe arses and keep down jobs and other shenigans that people who play on the internet all day for decades donít have to do.

Betty, this reads to me like a particularly nasty dig at Wolfie.

I hope Iím wrong but most of us, even when debating someone on the other side, can manage to wring out a little bit of empathy for someone else health. Of course, if Iím wrong, and it isnít just a nasty, petty, vicious dig that frankly is beneath you, then do let me know.

No, itís not. Itís an attack on the legion of unemployable trans activists who sit on forums like Mumsnet and Twitter day and night hounding feminists. Iíve no idea about the detail of Wolfieís personal circumstances. We are not connected socially.

I was heartened to read the other day that though the trans activits appear to be numbered in their 1000s, especially on Twitter,  (it seems overwhelming when pile ons occur, and obviously Twitter has US and Canadian TRAs as well) HOWEVER,  it's more probable that it's a smaller number of very organised TRAs using multiple URLs.   When they wanted to shut down the talk at Millwall, one TRA even boasted that they had phoned up using lots of different voices. 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Sorted. on May 13, 2018, 11:50:51 AM
As a friend of mine fondly reminded me..you, my love, will never be a transwoman.  Not fabulous enough apparently. I beg to differ.     She is very proud of the distinction.  I know others who aren't..  Who'd have thought transwoman could have different opinions as well?  It's almost  as if they're real people or something.    (<sarcasm just in case)

Edited to remove a soundbite that made me cringe.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 13, 2018, 11:53:34 AM
Lyco please could you explain exactly what you mean by "transwomen are women", in words that bear in mind that the only book I've read since 2014 is The Firm?

Mumsnet proving not learned enough about queer nuances again?

Iím sure a lot of them have to wipe arses and keep down jobs and other shenigans that people who play on the internet all day for decades donít have to do.

I'm sorry that what I do with the wreckage of my life causes you such irritation, Betty. I know how lucky I am to have been stuck in this bed pissing away my existence for the past eighteen years while you have to hold down a job.  I'll remember to thank my lucky stars when I'm relieved of the responsibility of wiping my own arse too. 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Madge Hooks on May 13, 2018, 12:03:07 PM
Wow.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 13, 2018, 12:06:29 PM
Mumsnet proving not learned enough about queer nuances again?

Iím sure a lot of them have to wipe arses and keep down jobs and other shenigans that people who play on the internet all day for decades donít have to do.

Betty, this reads to me like a particularly nasty dig at Wolfie.

I hope Iím wrong but most of us, even when debating someone on the other side, can manage to wring out a little bit of empathy for someone else health. Of course, if Iím wrong, and it isnít just a nasty, petty, vicious dig that frankly is beneath you, then do let me know.

No, itís not. Itís an attack on the legion of unemployable trans activists who sit on forums like Mumsnet and Twitter day and night hounding feminists. Iíve no idea about the detail of Wolfieís personal circumstances. We are not connected socially.

I was heartened to read the other day that though the trans activits appear to be numbered in their 1000s, especially on Twitter,  (it seems overwhelming when pile ons occur, and obviously Twitter has US and Canadian TRAs as well) HOWEVER,  it's more probable that it's a smaller number of very organised TRAs using multiple URLs.   When they wanted to shut down the talk at Millwall, one TRA even boasted that they had phoned up using lots of different voices.

I struggle with people who fixate on imposing their views on others, generally. And I donít like it when people dehumanise whether that be Corbynistas banging on about ďBlairitesĒ and obsessively sitting on jess Phillips twitter feed just to be vile, transactivists sending IMS saying ďDie Terf DieĒ or Julia Long being unable to talk about issues in way that attempts to empathise or show compassion.

But I think the fact that Trans Activists in general have nothing else to do all day but harrass people online is contributing hugely to the weird political climate. I feel the same about Momentum. I wish the DWP would make them do a window cleaning round. They need fresh air and perspective.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 13, 2018, 12:15:11 PM
Iíve got no idea what you have done with your life or how long youíve been in bed, Wolfie.

Beyond references to you being ill at various times, on here, Iíve no information about you other than that. Why should I have? You could be a computer programmer for all I know.

I donít like you sneering at the Mums on Mumsnet as I said previously.

I donít like the way that a flock of transactivists are targeting it with unlimited time and energy. As Iíve said previously. Iíve never described you or even thought of you as a trans activist.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 13, 2018, 12:46:59 PM
Have a read of these guidelines and tell me how this is going to help individuals stay healthy if their birth certificates are changed and it's an offence to disclose the gender of the patient to anyone else.

https://www.gmc-uk.org/ethical-guidance/ethical-hub/trans-healthcare#confidentiality-and-equality


If there was a prostate cancer screening call out, trans men would get invited even though they have no prostates.  Those who have but id as women, will be overlooked.

Call ups for cervical smears, I got one the other day,  trans women will be called up and trans men who HAVE cervixes and are at risk, will not be.  How can the NHS manage people's health and protect us from sex-based health issues, if all documentation is altered?

Also medical research has shown that the same diseases operate very differently in male and female bodies.  There's a very interesting Ted Talk about it.  Scientists are only just noticing some of this stuff but it could be a matter of life and death for individuals. 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 13, 2018, 12:55:53 PM
Yup. Thatís also why I think the results of 24 hour keyboard warrior lifestyles are damaging.

Womens bodies are palpable things, womenís spaces are palpable things. Periods are palable things. The smell of piss is palpable.

But if youíre sitting there 24-7 in a box room wrapping yourself in semantics, the living reality of that gets loss.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Chewwy on May 13, 2018, 02:12:07 PM
It's a great shame.  If there are a large number of us who really feel this way we should all sit down and have a think about how to do it.

About GB or self id?

I didn't fuck off to Mumsnet.  I fucked off to work from dusk til dawn to save my school from wicked money grabbing child hating interim scum bags.
And succeeded.

About GB. 

If you didn't fuck off to Mumsnet, how do you know so much about it?

And I'm not suggesting that you don't work hard Blythe, not at all.  But i think you and others have moved boards and posted elsewhere (in the spare time that you do have).   And that's up to you, but am I wrong in thinking that?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 13, 2018, 02:25:08 PM
It's a great shame.  If there are a large number of us who really feel this way we should all sit down and have a think about how to do it.

About GB or self id?

I didn't fuck off to Mumsnet.  I fucked off to work from dusk til dawn to save my school from wicked money grabbing child hating interim scum bags.
And succeeded.

About GB. 

If you didn't fuck off to Mumsnet, how do you know so much about it?

And I'm not suggesting that you don't work hard Blythe, not at all.  But i think you and others have moved boards and posted elsewhere (in the spare time that you do have).   And that's up to you, but am I wrong in thinking that?

I was working very hard for the last four years, saving my school!!.... and then when the self id debate hit me last summer I found the only place that had detailed analysis of the kind I needed to understand the implications so since September I've read some of their feminist boards..Not on school nights. At weekends because I think this is the most important thing to happen to women and girls if the legislation goes through.
Sorry that gb couldn't help me with that but by then it had become too quiet.

I only posted again on here because I discovered through a desperate post by a young lesbian ON MUMSNET that lesbians have nowhere to go that hasn't been taken over by trans people.
I thought maybe here could be a haven and posted about gb over there.

So, Chewwy, I'm doing this for young lesbians. Not for me or for you.

What about you? I recall a fortnight ago you were invited by a gb person to a night out/reunion but didn't turn up....
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Plus One on May 13, 2018, 03:25:26 PM
When I worked in London there was a situation a male who decided he was 'confused' and some days IDed as a woman and some days as a man. Whilst IDing as a woman his presentation was no different than when a man, he just popped a bad wig on. He wasn't transitioning, he was just 'confused'.

I never spoke to him, or saw him much as he used this situation to avoid the public-facing aspect of the job, the hardest part of my job, and spent his time in the back. On the odd occassion he came out from the back, i.e. when there was a bad crowd problem and bodies were needed at the front, he confidently shouted loudly to large crowds of the public and showed no signs whatsoever of the 'fear' he was using to avoid doing half of his job.

Now I didn't speak to him as I said, I would have introduced myself but whenever our eyes met there was so much hostility from him I really didn't fancy even saying Hi. No idea why, maybe because my hair colour was the same as his wig, who knows! Given the nature of our working environment I can't imagine I was threatening in any way to him, even if he thought I wouldn't understand... plenty of men there that I know for religious reasons would be opposed to my sexuality, were never anything other than respectful towards me. There was a greater fear of losing one's job for some -phobia or -ism than there was a need to to express such things.

I don't know anything about how genuine he was, maybe he was fearful, maybe not, when feeling male he didn't do his full job either. But I do know that his behaviour caused my collegues to resent him enormously for what they saw as an abuse of some very good equality at work conditions with Trade Union backup. No-one could challenge him on it. All that was required for him to get himself a cushier number at work was to self-ID as female whenever he felt like it and play on equality rules.

I'm not saying he shouldn't have been protected if he was genuine, I don't even know what I think about the whole one day this, one day, that... my inclination is, what a load of horsesh*t. However, the point of the post is just to highlight is how easy it would be for a person to abuse a system if they are in an environment where there is a clear goal for equality but, I rather imagine, no guidelines that even begin to cover this sort of situation.



Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Chewwy on May 13, 2018, 03:36:00 PM
It's a great shame.  If there are a large number of us who really feel this way we should all sit down and have a think about how to do it.

About GB or self id?

I didn't fuck off to Mumsnet.  I fucked off to work from dusk til dawn to save my school from wicked money grabbing child hating interim scum bags.
And succeeded.

About GB. 

If you didn't fuck off to Mumsnet, how do you know so much about it?

And I'm not suggesting that you don't work hard Blythe, not at all.  But i think you and others have moved boards and posted elsewhere (in the spare time that you do have).   And that's up to you, but am I wrong in thinking that?

I was working very hard for the last four years, saving my school!!.... and then when the self id debate hit me last summer I found the only place that had detailed analysis of the kind I needed to understand the implications so since September I've read some of their feminist boards..Not on school nights. At weekends because I think this is the most important thing to happen to women and girls if the legislation goes through.
Sorry that gb couldn't help me with that but by then it had become too quiet.

I only posted again on here because I discovered through a desperate post by a young lesbian ON MUMSNET that lesbians have nowhere to go that hasn't been taken over by trans people.
I thought maybe here could be a haven and posted about gb over there.

So, Chewwy, I'm doing this for young lesbians. Not for me or for you.

What about you? I recall a fortnight ago you were invited by a gb person to a night out/reunion but didn't turn up....

I massively fucked up.  I own that, and I've apologised to said GB'er.

Blythe, I'm not having a go at you - is that what it sounds like?  I'm just rankled that it takes a huge issue like this for people to post again.  And that a lot you's / GB'ers have taken to Mumnet to blether / post away. 

Message boards are shrinking / disappearing to the point that it'll be Mumsnet or Reddit or whatever that's left, and I hate that.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 13, 2018, 03:43:49 PM
It's a great shame.  If there are a large number of us who really feel this way we should all sit down and have a think about how to do it.

About GB or self id?

I didn't fuck off to Mumsnet.  I fucked off to work from dusk til dawn to save my school from wicked money grabbing child hating interim scum bags.
And succeeded.

About GB. 

If you didn't fuck off to Mumsnet, how do you know so much about it?

And I'm not suggesting that you don't work hard Blythe, not at all.  But i think you and others have moved boards and posted elsewhere (in the spare time that you do have).   And that's up to you, but am I wrong in thinking that?

I was working very hard for the last four years, saving my school!!.... and then when the self id debate hit me last summer I found the only place that had detailed analysis of the kind I needed to understand the implications so since September I've read some of their feminist boards..Not on school nights. At weekends because I think this is the most important thing to happen to women and girls if the legislation goes through.
Sorry that gb couldn't help me with that but by then it had become too quiet.

I only posted again on here because I discovered through a desperate post by a young lesbian ON MUMSNET that lesbians have nowhere to go that hasn't been taken over by trans people.
I thought maybe here could be a haven and posted about gb over there.

So, Chewwy, I'm doing this for young lesbians. Not for me or for you.

What about you? I recall a fortnight ago you were invited by a gb person to a night out/reunion but didn't turn up....

I massively fucked up.  I own that, and I've apologised to said GB'er.

Blythe, I'm not having a go at you - is that what it sounds like?  I'm just rankled that it takes a huge issue like this for people to post again.  And that a lot you's / GB'ers have taken to Mumnet to blether / post away. 

Message boards are shrinking / disappearing to the point that it'll be Mumsnet or Reddit or whatever that's left, and I hate that.

Its OK. I miss GB. I want to keep posting, I hardly use fb. I resent it.
Mumsnet is educating me on this issue, that's important to me.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Plus One on May 13, 2018, 05:58:49 PM
I'm having a couple of issues with this debate:

1) My impression is that not too many people on here, if any, have any problem with transwomen (I'm defining that as a MtF fully transitioned person). But people do have a problem with the ability of any male self-IDing as female and gaining access to previously female only spaces. These people don't consider themselves transphobic.

Against that we seem to have a reluctance of some to understand that difference, or accept it, or even acknowledge that others *are* making that disctinction - if someone IDs as female then they are trans and that is that. Self-ID = trans in this debate. No distinction made. Anyone having a problem with simple self-IDing is therefore transphobic.

2) In any feminist discussion, about pretty much anything I can think of, there is a total acceptance that some men's behaviour, and male privilege, is a problem for women, in a sexual or abusive way, or other ways in just about every area of life.

But in *this* discussion suddenly I feel like I'm being asked to ignore all that, ignore pirvilege, ignore predatory men, ignore abuse of women. Suddenly, in the world of transactivism those things cease to exist, men IDing as women have no alterior motives ever, as soon as someone IDs as a women they lose ALL sense of privilege, no men have ever abused a system to get to vulnerable women, there's nothing to be worried about at all in any situation. And bizarrely, everytime women speak out, we're being told not to be silly, it's all in our heads, why worry about something that has never happened and never will happen, you're making it all up.   Now where have I heard that before?


1 is making any debate difficult because people are being misunderstood, perhaps deliberately so, because it's more entertaining, or it just doesn't suit the argument.
2 just does my head in, particularly when I hear it from women.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: PushingThru on May 13, 2018, 06:18:33 PM
Perhaps people might consider why people felt they needed to go elsewhere to post and discuss issues that were important to them. I was naffed off when people went onto Twitter or Facebook, but presumably there's a reason people did? All over conversations are being closed down. People post where they feel safe.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 13, 2018, 06:25:51 PM
I donít think Iíve ever felt safe talking about gender identity/ the relevance of biological sex on here.

Iíve done it regardless but Iíve never felt safe doing it. There was always a feeling of a jackboot in the sky about to come crashing down. This thread probably has the most diverse set of posts on it that Iíve seen.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 13, 2018, 06:46:10 PM
http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2011/11/list-of-cisgender-privileges/

Tried to do this ďcis gendered privilegeĒ test and got up to 10 pretty much without having any of them apart from I can go to a particular American music festival without being barred by my gender. I donít think even that applies now as I believe it was closed down.

Most of them I didnít have or intermittently havenít had due to prejudices because of my sexuality or at times because I was perceived as gender non conforming.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Sorted. on May 13, 2018, 07:03:53 PM
I'm having a couple of issues with this debate:

1) My impression is that not too many people on here, if any, have any problem with transwomen (I'm defining that as a MtF fully transitioned person). But people do have a problem with the ability of any male self-IDing as female and gaining access to previously female only spaces. These people don't consider themselves transphobic.

Against that we seem to have a reluctance of some to understand that difference, or accept it, or even acknowledge that others *are* making that disctinction - if someone IDs as female then they are trans and that is that. Self-ID = trans in this debate. No distinction made. Anyone having a problem with simple self-IDing is therefore transphobic.

2) In any feminist discussion, about pretty much anything I can think of, there is a total acceptance that some men's behaviour, and male privilege, is a problem for women, in a sexual or abusive way, or other ways in just about every area of life.

But in *this* discussion suddenly I feel like I'm being asked to ignore all that, ignore pirvilege, ignore predatory men, ignore abuse of women. Suddenly, in the world of transactivism those things cease to exist, men IDing as women have no alterior motives ever, as soon as someone IDs as a women they lose ALL sense of privilege, no men have ever abused a system to get to vulnerable women, there's nothing to be worried about at all in any situation. And bizarrely, everytime women speak out, we're being told not to be silly, it's all in our heads, why worry about something that has never happened and never will happen, you're making it all up.   Now where have I heard that before?


1 is making any debate difficult because people are being misunderstood, perhaps deliberately so, because it's more entertaining, or it just doesn't suit the argument.
2 just does my head in, particularly when I hear it from women.

Aye
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 13, 2018, 09:47:33 PM
 Yes plus one, I think you have accurately described the debate there. Just thought Iíd post this up as it all seems incredibly relevant.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Gender_Critical/comments/6kkeni/the_rules_of_misogyny/
 Letís see how many of these we can tick off. All of them I expect.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: PushingThru on May 13, 2018, 09:51:31 PM
Yes plus one, I think you have accurately described the debate there. Just thought Iíd post this up as it all seems incredibly relevant.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Gender_Critical/comments/6kkeni/the_rules_of_misogyny/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/Gender_Critical/comments/6kkeni/the_rules_of_misogyny/)
 Letís see how many of these we can tick off. All of them I expect.

I could add a few.

Women are not to be listened to.
Women should listen and not have an opinion.
Women's opinions only count if someone else has ok'd them first.
Women should give up their space without fuss
Women should seek to ameliorate an argument
Women who don't agree with the prevailing are 'aggressive'
Women who don't agree should shut up 

I'm no academic but I'm fed up with the above
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: hellohowareyoutoday on May 13, 2018, 10:24:55 PM
Are these lists describing life in a first world country in 2018, or are they describing life for a female protagonist in The Handmaid's Tale? Is your experience of being a woman today really as bleak as this thread with a measly 41 upvotes on a desolate subreddit makes it out to be? I'm finding a lot of the 'evidence' behind this transphobic circlejerking (as the good people of reddit would say) to be laughably exaggerated. I am a liberal feminist and so are the people I associate with. There is still lots of work to be done to eliminate all sorts of prejudice towards different groups, but using fearmongering techniques is not helpful or credible.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: PushingThru on May 13, 2018, 10:29:22 PM
Perhaps they're just women speaking as they feel, hellowhowareyoutoday. Perhaps that's allowed in 2018.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: hellohowareyoutoday on May 13, 2018, 10:31:14 PM
Of course it's allowed, but so are people who wanna change their gender. It's 2018.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: PushingThru on May 13, 2018, 10:32:21 PM
Noone's disagreeing with you hellowhowareyoutoday.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: hellohowareyoutoday on May 13, 2018, 10:33:10 PM
Thank you PushingThru, that is kind that I am not being silenced for once by the patriarchy.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 13, 2018, 10:46:19 PM
How could you read that as transphobic?

Have I missed something? Is Hitler going to come into this one somehow?

What prompted you to become a feminist HHAYT, liberal or otherwise and at what point did you think "we've got full equality now. All is well with the world"?

How is this fearmongering?

"Women are not to be listened to.
Women should listen and not have an opinion.
Women's opinions only count if someone else has ok'd them first.
Women should give up their space without fuss
Women should seek to ameliorate an argument
Women who don't agree with the prevailing are 'aggressive'
Women who don't agree should shut up

I'm no academic but I'm fed up with the above"

Funnily enough there was a bloke called Ben who was saying all of this and more on Twitter today. No one vilified him, tried to get him sacked or called him transphobic.

Ps. my partner wanted to create an account here today just to applaud Plus One's last two posts but her battery died.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 13, 2018, 11:09:17 PM


Women are not to be listened to.
Women should listen and not have an opinion.
Women's opinions only count if someone else has ok'd them first.
Women should give up their space without fuss
Women should seek to ameliorate an argument
Women who don't agree with the prevailing are 'aggressive'
Women who don't agree should shut up 

I'm no academic but I'm fed up with the above

I think what you list ignores is that there are women on both sides. As a woman my voice is no more or less valid than any other womenís but when I disagree some women claim to be Ďsliencedí.

Is there something wrong with thr kind of woman I am or with what it is I have to say? Is there only one valid way to be a woman? Do women only speak with one voice? Have women turned into an amorphous mass, with only one world view?

When did it start to feel Ďunsafeí to be disagreed with?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: PushingThru on May 13, 2018, 11:14:01 PM
I don't see two sides, Top. I see women, and a series of opinions. I can't comment on, as you put it "what kind of woman you are" because we've never met as far as I can remember, or even spoken. That you might see it differently is fine, it doesn't make my opinion any less valid. We can agree, to disagree? No?

Safe spaces are - in my view - really about having a place where you feel you can speak openly.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 13, 2018, 11:14:19 PM
It was there in a nutshell.

Pushing tho said "No one is disagreeing with you, HHAYT.

And HHATT replied that she was glad to hear she was not being silenced (by the patriarchy). (Bracketed for side issue).

But being disagreed with is not being silenced.

Being disagreed with is being disagreed with.

Saying you can't say that, you can't debate this, drowning out people trying to speak, blocking the stairwell to prevent them associating, trying to get them sacked. Thats not disagreement. Thats silencing. Or an unsuccessful attempt at it.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 13, 2018, 11:31:36 PM
I'm having a couple of issues with this debate:

1) My impression is that not too many people on here, if any, have any problem with transwomen (I'm defining that as a MtF fully transitioned person). But people do have a problem with the ability of any male self-IDing as female and gaining access to previously female only spaces. These people don't consider themselves transphobic
.

Itís an incredibly fine line. Itís like talking about race and immigration, race needs no discussion and no white person should presume to call for a Ďdebateí about it, whereas immigration is a reasonable political discussion point.

The problem is that a lot of racist want to talk about immigration because they use it as a back door to attack the object of their racism. Even people, like ourselves, who donít actually think of ourselves as racists, who arenít actively racist sometimes do things that are a little bit racist because of our cultural norms. Itís not a terriablr thing, I was raised in the 70s, itís amazing that Iím not more insensitivity to black peoples than I actually am but I have to take it on the chin that itís an evolving thing that I have to consider. That white privilege thing is a lot to take on board.

For example, your example of the person you used to work with has no place in a discussion about trans people. Your former colleague sounds like an arsehole but their gender identity is a dog whistle. If references to gender identity were removed and replaced with race identifiers and that anecdote was in the middle of a discussion about immigration, youíd be called out on it. It would be seen as a transparent Ďrace card callingí trope, which is the claim, despite all the evidences pointing the other way, that black peoples receive favourable treatment.





Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 13, 2018, 11:37:35 PM
HHAYT,  would you explain what is transphobic about the link I shared. There is a lot of accusations of transphobia being thrown around, but I must be missing something, because I donít see it. 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: hellohowareyoutoday on May 13, 2018, 11:39:10 PM
I will try do an adequate job at addressing some of these questions:

How could you read that as transphobic?

I read it as transphobic because it is being used to bolster arguments in the context of a transphobic thread, and also because I perused that subreddit and it is a fearmongering echo chamber of a subreddit with threads like "ThIs MaN is WeaRinG a drEsS and cOmiNg to SteaL your SporTs medals!! BeWaRe!" So, in summary, I used context and the theme of the subreddit to get some background and see what sort of thought process it's coming from. I consider the source when assessing information.

Have I missed something? Is Hitler going to come into this one somehow?

Please, don't bring Hitler into this again. We don't need your diversions.

What prompted you to become a feminist HHAYT, liberal or otherwise

I think it's because I'm generally a kind and logical person and I want to see people (and animals and the environment) treated kindly. I am against people and other creatures experiencing cruelty, and I want to see everyone have a fair chance at a reasonably non-torturous life. The liberal agenda aligns with many of my core beliefs in freedom, equality, fairness. Amongst other things, I believe in and support abortion, gay rights, a livable minimum wage, women's rights, recycling, veganism, welfare programs, the black lives matter movement, making spaces accessible for individuals with disabilities, and generally allowing people a chance to live an authentic life, even if I do not understand it (I do not understand why an owlkin believes they are an owl, but that is their choice to identify as a bird).

How is this fearmongering?

You definitely used some of the tamer ones on the list. That list does not capture my own personal experience of being a woman for 30 years, in a package that misogynistic men would undoubtedly approve of even less than average. Here are some of the ones I disagree with, even if I have direct experience with them. "Women saying no to men is a hate crime." <--- No, in a sexual context, this is rape (I have been raped by two men, by the way, so time for me to use that card!), and is punishable by law. "Women who go around being female AT men by menstruating and breast feeding babies deserve punishment." <-- Thank god the period police haven't captured me yet! "Women's opinions are violence against men thus male violence against women is justified." <-- I think most reasonable people - even uncivilized men - oppose violence to women, and again, this violence is not permitted by the law. "Women should give up their space without fuss" <-- I ride the bus multiple times a day, and often physical space is at a premium. The people who take the bus are often a rowdy bunch, and would no doubt protest if anyone dared to suggest that I or any other woman give up a seat for an invalid reason.

At what point did you think "we've got full equality now. All is well with the world"


I don't think that at all. In fact, I tried to preempt this strawman attack by saying "There is still lots of work to be done to eliminate all sorts of prejudice towards different groups". We are a long way - probably centuries or millennia away - from seeing the social progress we are aiming for, but presenting reality in a dystopian light is not helpful, as I said, and slippery slopes are a common and easy-to-spot thing.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 13, 2018, 11:39:11 PM
Itís transcentric to frame it as a debate about trans people and then say she mustnít talk about her experience.

Itís actually a debate about self id under the GRA which effects people of all genders/biological sex and how it may detrimentally impact on working environments for her and others. Which is valid and necessary and socially useful.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 13, 2018, 11:47:40 PM

2) In any feminist discussion, about pretty much anything I can think of, there is a total acceptance that some men's behaviour, and male privilege, is a problem for women, in a sexual or abusive way, or other ways in just about every area of life.

But in *this* discussion suddenly I feel like I'm being asked to ignore all that, ignore pirvilege, ignore predatory men, ignore abuse of women. Suddenly, in the world of transactivism those things cease to exist, men IDing as women have no alterior motives ever, as soon as someone IDs as a women they lose ALL sense of privilege, no men have ever abused a system to get to vulnerable women, there's nothing to be worried about at all in any situation. And bizarrely, everytime women speak out, we're being told not to be silly, it's all in our heads, why worry about something that has never happened and never will happen, you're making it all up.   Now where have I heard that before?

I think that youíre wrong to think that anyone is being asked to ignore privilege, youíre just being asked to looking at it in slightly broader terms.

Iím going to say something offensive now, this isnít a debate about all trans people, no one is objecting to the trans women who pass, and no one cares about trans men. This is a discussion solely about trans women who donít pass because theyíre the people who make everyone uncomfortable.

The self evident, usually older transitioned trans women is the elephant in the room.

I have more privilege than that women. We all have more privilege than that woman. That woman is more likely to be abused, beaten or attacked by a stranger than any of us because thatís the woman who is most feared, sheís the one messing with our expectations of gender.

That woman is on the absolute front line of male violence and street abuse. Iím not.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: pure evil on May 13, 2018, 11:51:30 PM
This debate really makes me wonder how many of you have transpeople in your lives: friends, loves, relatives?
Or rather, it makes me think that most of you don't.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: PushingThru on May 13, 2018, 11:52:47 PM
no one cares about trans men.

I'm glad you've bought this point up, as I a lot earlier in the thread, and I know I've selectively quoted. WHY does 'no one care about trans men'? (I'll interpret this as 'not offended/alarmed by/afraid of' etc.) Isn't it male privilege we are discussing here? Why are m2f considered differently to f2m? 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 13, 2018, 11:59:57 PM
Itís not a debate about trans women who donít pass at all.

Its almost exclusively been about potential abuse of self Id by (cis) men.

Itís like womens own words donít matter.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 14, 2018, 12:03:21 AM
Itís transcentric to frame it as a debate about trans people and then say she mustnít talk about her experience
.

Iíd also say that she shouldnít talk about the time a black fella mugged her, if we were discussion immigration.

Iíd be sympathetic that it had happend but turning that mugger into Ďevery black maní and using him as an exclude black prope from a country would be racist.

The anadote was about one person behaving badly. Focus on that personís behaviour but using that as an example of why other people who share a similar identity should be viewed in a certain way is prejudice.

If I were to start a discussion about you with a run down on Rose Westís crimes and the impact that they had on society, that wouldnít be a discussion that started from a fair and impartial basis, even though youíre not Rose West and, presumably, have never met Rose West and, most certainly, donít have anyone buried under your house. However, that still wouldnít be as bad as the example of the bad employee given because white women make up 40% of the population, so we would all have had a chance to meet and make positive associations with many white woman.


Quote
Itís actually a debate about self id under the GRA which effects people of all genders/biological sex and how it may detrimentally impact on working environments for her and others. Which is valid and necessary and socially useful.

Well then we donít need to throw in personal stories about Ďbad trans people I have knowní, or sport or public loos or prisons or financial conspiracies or children or AWSs or any of the other tropes.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 14, 2018, 12:04:24 AM
I will try do an adequate job at addressing some of these questions:

How could you read that as transphobic?

I read it as transphobic because it is being used to bolster arguments in the context of a transphobic thread, and also because I perused that subreddit and it is a fearmongering echo chamber of a subreddit with threads like "ThIs MaN is WeaRinG a drEsS and cOmiNg to SteaL your SporTs medals!! BeWaRe!" So, in summary, I used context and the theme of the subreddit to get some background and see what sort of thought process it's coming from. I consider the source when assessing information.

Have I missed something? Is Hitler going to come into this one somehow?

Please, don't bring Hitler into this again. We don't need your diversions.

What prompted you to become a feminist HHAYT, liberal or otherwise

I think it's because I'm generally a kind and logical person and I want to see people (and animals and the environment) treated kindly. I am against people and other creatures experiencing cruelty, and I want to see everyone have a fair chance at a reasonably non-torturous life. The liberal agenda aligns with many of my core beliefs in freedom, equality, fairness. Amongst other things, I believe in and support abortion, gay rights, a livable minimum wage, women's rights, recycling, veganism, welfare programs, the black lives matter movement, making spaces accessible for individuals with disabilities, and generally allowing people a chance to live an authentic life, even if I do not understand it (I do not understand why an owlkin believes they are an owl, but that is their choice to identify as a bird).

How is this fearmongering?

You definitely used some of the tamer ones on the list. That list does not capture my own personal experience of being a woman for 30 years, in a package that misogynistic men would undoubtedly approve of even less than average. Here are some of the ones I disagree with, even if I have direct experience with them. "Women saying no to men is a hate crime." <--- No, in a sexual context, this is rape (I have been raped by two men, by the way, so time for me to use that card!), and is punishable by law. "Women who go around being female AT men by menstruating and breast feeding babies deserve punishment." <-- Thank god the period police haven't captured me yet! "Women's opinions are violence against men thus male violence against women is justified." <-- I think most reasonable people - even uncivilized men - oppose violence to women, and again, this violence is not permitted by the law. "Women should give up their space without fuss" <-- I ride the bus multiple times a day, and often physical space is at a premium. The people who take the bus are often a rowdy bunch, and would no doubt protest if anyone dared to suggest that I or any other woman give up a seat for an invalid reason.

At what point did you think "we've got full equality now. All is well with the world"


I don't think that at all. In fact, I tried to preempt this strawman attack by saying "There is still lots of work to be done to eliminate all sorts of prejudice towards different groups". We are a long way - probably centuries or millennia away - from seeing the social progress we are aiming for, but presenting reality in a dystopian light is not helpful, as I said, and slippery slopes are a common and easy-to-spot thing.

Iím pretty sure that the only people who have mentioned Hitler and the nazis on this thread are you and Top.

Itís transphobic because itís on a transphobic thread. Thatís entirely circular.

Itís ď fearmongeringĒ because those statements donít resonate with your life experience of misogyny even though they do resonate with other women. Isnít that just called diversity of experience?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 14, 2018, 12:05:40 AM
Itís not a debate about trans women who donít pass at all.

Its almost exclusively been about potential abuse of self Id by (cis) men.

Itís like womens own words donít matter.

Maybe you could have a look at the treat title and some of the other posts. If this is a debate about cis men, no one else has noticed.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 14, 2018, 12:07:27 AM
I really don't think this is a debate about one type of trans person either.
I am concerned about men's rights activists hijacking the trans movement and how that is driving the narrative online.
I'm concerned about women feeling their spaces are under threat especially in certain situations... Age is irrelevant and passing too.

I'm concerned about how young lesbians are feeling coming out into a world where the cotton ceiling is a phrase, is an actual thing.

I'm concerned that the transsexuals I know feel their voices aren't being heard.

But most of all I'm fucking furious that I'm being expected to pretend science and words don't matter and to be quiet.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 14, 2018, 12:08:23 AM
Itís transcentric to frame it as a debate about trans people and then say she mustnít talk about her experience
.

Iíd also say that she shouldnít talk about the time a black fella mugged her, if we were discussion immigration.

Iíd be sympathetic that it had happend but turning that mugger into Ďevery black maní and using him as an exclude black prope from a country would be racist.

The anadote was about one person behaving badly. Focus on that personís behaviour but using that as an example of why other people who share a similar identity should be viewed in a certain way is prejudice.

If I were to start a discussion about you with a run down on Rose Westís crimes and the impact that they had on society, that wouldnít be a discussion that started from a fair and impartial basis, even though youíre not Rose West and, presumably, have never met Rose West and, most certainly, donít have anyone buried under your house. However, that still wouldnít be as bad as the example of the bad employee given because white women make up 40% of the population, so we would all have had a chance to meet and make positive associations with many white woman.


Quote
Itís actually a debate about self id under the GRA which effects people of all genders/biological sex and how it may detrimentally impact on working environments for her and others. Which is valid and necessary and socially useful.

Well then we donít need to throw in personal stories about Ďbad trans people I have knowní, or sport or public loos or prisons or financial conspiracies or children or AWSs or any of the other tropes.

Four things - he wasnt a trans person, she wasnít using him as an example of a bad trans person but as someone who abused equality provisions, she specifically excluded the suggestion that he was typical trans person and I have met Rose West.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 14, 2018, 12:10:15 AM
Itís not a debate about trans women who donít pass at all.

Its almost exclusively been about potential abuse of self Id by (cis) men.

Itís like womens own words donít matter.

Maybe you could have a look at the treat title and some of the other posts. If this is a debate about cis men, no one else has noticed.

And like most threads they diversify and Plus Oneís post was clearly about the potential abuse of self id in an amended GRA.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 14, 2018, 12:15:03 AM
I'm glad you've bought this point up, as I a lot earlier in the thread, and I know I've selectively quoted. WHY does 'no one care about trans men'? (I'll interpret this as 'not offended/alarmed by/afraid of' etc.) Isn't it male privilege we are discussing here? Why are m2f considered differently to f2m?

Trans men arenít discussed because they donít fit into the Ďthey are coming to look at us in the loosí narrative and they are also very inconvenient to those who want single sex spaces, so that they can feel Ďsafeí by being able to challenge anyone who Ďlooks like a maní because trans men mostly have beards.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: PushingThru on May 14, 2018, 12:17:31 AM
In other words, am I right in thinking that trans men aren't seen as a threat? Is that what you are saying?  (genuine question)
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 14, 2018, 12:21:30 AM
The trans man in the swimming pool link above used the family room that the girls used because he didnít feel comfortable in the menís.

He had a beard. No idea why thatís interesting. What it meant in practice was that we had three rooms each with men in them and women cowering in one that was mixed space.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 14, 2018, 12:36:20 AM
I really don't think this is a debate about one type of trans person either.
I am concerned about men's rights activists hijacking the trans movement and how that is driving the narrative online
.

But that doesnít happen the MRA agenda and the TRA agenda are totally different. MRAs bloody love the trans/TERF skirmishes, they think that it will destroy feminism and they might be right. It really damaged feminism in the 1980s.

Quote
I'm concerned about women feeling their spaces are under threat especially in certain situations... Age is irrelevant and passing too.

That isnít impacted by the proposed changes to the GRA, Trans women have been legally using womenís space for 14 years and you didnít notice.

Quote
I'm concerned about how young lesbians are feeling coming out into a world where the cotton ceiling is a phrase, is an actual thing.

But youíve had an explaination of where the phrase came from and youíve ignored it, in favour of what youíve read on Mumsnet. Iíd like you to consider for a moment how likely it is that young lesbians are posting on MN looking for support, not all of those accounts are totally genuine, you know.

Quote
I'm concerned that the transsexuals I know feel their voices aren't being heard.

Youíve managed to come up with 16 of them, who are as entitled to write to their MPs or the consultation process as the rest of us. Their voices are heard and then disagreed with, thatís the nature of debate. They got a letter in the Guardian, which is more publicity than most of us get. They will continue to put their point across and they will continue to be a minority voice.

Quote
But most of all I'm fucking furious that I'm being expected to pretend science and words don't matter and to be quiet.

I canít see how anyone is being expected to pretend science doesnít exist. One of the previous posters is an adoptive mother, everyine know that she didnít give birth to her child, no one shouts about it. She is to all intends and purposes her childís mother but they have no biological link. No one mentions it but no one is denying the actual science.

However, youíve misunderstood words or, more precisely how language works. Works evolve and their meanings change over time. No one calls the adoptive mother I referred to an Ďadoptive motherí after sheíd recieved her child (Iím sorry I donít mean to cause offence, maybe there is another word for this?), she just becomes Ďmumí. That takes nothing away from women whoíve given birth and have a biological link to their children. Hopefully, no one approaches her in thr playground to point out the different biological make up of her family and their own.

Can throw in a concern? Iím concerend that these issues are raised again and again, not matter how often they are addressed. You might not believe or accept thr explanations Iím giving but to ignore them and continue to throw out the same concerns again and again isnít debate. Maybe Iím not explaining myself very well, thatís fine, challenge what I say, we might get somewhere, at worst weíll be having a debate.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 14, 2018, 12:43:20 AM
In other words, am I right in thinking that trans men aren't seen as a threat? Is that what you are saying?  (genuine question)

No, itís not just that. Thr TERF argument is that having single sex environments will make women safer because they will know that anyone who doesnít Ďlook like a womaní is there to molest them.

Trans men mess with that argument becasue they donít Ďlook like a womaní, so they are pushed under the carpet.

Itís not so much that they arenít a physical threat (although they arenít) itís more that they are a threat to their argument.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 14, 2018, 12:52:41 AM
Why do you say ďweĒ in relation to the consultation process, when you are not part of it because you live in an entirely different legal jurisdiction and have no say in this consultation legally or morally.

Do you expect to be consulted when Iceland pass legislation? What about Morocco? Argentina?

The reason people continue to have concerns despite you feeling you have addressed them, is because you havenít. Not being convinced by your arguments does not mean itís not a debate. It means your arguments are not necessarily compelling and your evidence is weak or non existent.

For instance, saying trans women have been accessing womens spaces for 14 years doesnít alleviate peopleís concerns when they have repeatedly said their concerns are about men abusing self Id not trans women. A fact you constantly ignore and try to skirt around.

And why do you address the hypothetical straw man Ēterf argumentĒ when no one is making it here. Why not address the arguments that are being made rather than ones you wish were being made.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 14, 2018, 12:54:06 AM
So just because you think the young lesbian who posted on mumsnet feeling isolated isn't genuine then that makes it so...
I happen to think she's genuine.
But I will try and get the link so anyone can read it..

You say just because you've told me where the cotton ceiling came from means that it negates my point about it, my fear that young lesbians will be affected by it... Just because you say something is merely a trope doesn't stop its effect.

You say the 16 transsexuals I've come up with are just a minority view. But they are the only ones so far brave enough to speak up. There are many more who feel unsafe.

You say that MRAs and TRAs are different. I totally disagree. Their tactics are so similar and they have so much in common.
I will find the article about that too. Probably not now as I need to sleep.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 14, 2018, 01:12:03 AM
Why do you say ďweĒ in relation to the consultation process, when you are not part of it because you live in an entirely different legal jurisdiction and have no say in this consultation legally or morally
.

Sorry not to have given you a fuller run down on my immigration status but I have a vote in the U.K. and an MP and everything.


Quote
Do you expect to be consulted when Iceland pass legislation? What about Morocco? Argentina?

No, I donít have a vote in any of those places but, to be honest, theyíd be welcome to ask, Iím not shy about sharing what I think, particularly Iceland, I was very unhappy with my financial dealings with Iceland, I feel they let me down.


Quote
The reason people continue to have concerns despite you feeling you have addressed them, is because you havenít. Not being convinced by your arguments does not mean itís not a debate. It means your arguments are not necessarily compelling and your evidence is weak or non existent.

Thatís grand, Iíve provided plenty of evidence but if youíre not happy with it, itís best to say that because Iíve plenty more, just repeating the same questions again and again doesnít help me to give you comfort and I want to give you comfort.

Quote
For instance, saying trans women have been accessing womens spaces for 14 years doesnít alleviate peopleís concerns when they have repeatedly said their concerns are about men abusing self Id not trans women. A fact you constantly ignore and try to skirt around.

In all fairness, thatís quite a recent concern but again itís baseless. No one needs a GRC to access womenís space, the Equalities Act allowes that, there are trans women with GRCs in womenís prisons for instance because the allocation of womenís prison places are done on a case by case basis.

Paris Lee, for instance, doesnít have a GRC, she has a passport in her name with the correct gender and a driving licence. She says that she lives totally without issue, without one.

Quote
And why do you address the hypothetical straw man Ēterf argumentĒ when no one is making it here. Why not address the arguments that are being made rather than ones you wish were being made.

Someone asked why trans men were ignored and I told her. I didnít say that youíd argued it, to the best of my memory, you havenít mentioned trans men.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Musette on May 14, 2018, 01:26:56 AM
Well Mermaids supports the medicalisation of children through hormones and encourages surgery before the age of 18. The founder took her child to have their penis removed on their 16th birthday in Thailand because it was illegal here.
Their literature and stalls reek of promotion and recruitment. They should have all their funding removed and shouldn't be advising anyone and allowed nowhere near children.

I logged in a little while ago and found there were 14 pages I hadn't read. I did start to wade through it but it's late and I'm tired so I'm not going any further. But I can't let this pass.

Blythe, if you don't know I'm a member of Mermaids then you should.
Do you really think I'd belong to a group that I thought was 'recruiting'? That I believed was harming children?
Yes Susie took her daughter abroad for treatment because she wanted a live child, not a dead one.

Being the parent of a trans child is incredibly hard. You have no idea.
Every day is a trial of wondering if I'm doing the best for my child. Have I made (am I making) the right decisions? What will her future be?
Thank goodness there is a support group out there so that I'm not going through this alone because it's fucking terrifying and exhausting.

You might not like the fact that there are trans children out there, but there are, and they deserve compassion and understanding, not people pretending they don't exist and their problems can be ignored until they're 18.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 14, 2018, 01:47:24 AM
All trans people whether children or adults deserve recognition, compassion and the same rights as everyone else, Musette. That underpins everything.

Top, I wonít do you the potential injustice that you did to that young lesbian mentioned by Blythe or indeed to me, by doubting your assertions but I have to say, I admire your ability to become enfranchised. You get a vote everywhere you go from Mumsnet without being a parent to England and Wales when on your own account, you havenít lived here for years but have more right to speak for trans people than 16 transsexual women who actually live in this country and are affected by its laws. We could all learn from you in having our voices heard to the max.

In relation to Iceland, I also feel let down. Mostly in terms of their scampy and their best before dates.

As for concerns about men abusing self Id being only a recent concern, itís only a recent legislative proposal and much under publicised outside of the trans community other than by feminists. Weíre not scared of Paris Lees. Weíre more scared of the next Ian Huntley. But I am sure you know that already.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 14, 2018, 09:35:17 AM
I haven't got time to paste bits but I have found the thread that made me realise young women are feeling silenced.

I've linked the whole discussion because there are lots of good links.


https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3146166-Transactivism-and-the-lesbian-community?pg=2


Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: pure evil on May 14, 2018, 11:55:07 AM
@ Musette <3
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Musette on May 14, 2018, 01:09:30 PM
Thanks PE xx
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 14, 2018, 01:33:05 PM
I can't tolerate the way some talked about that issue. It was repulsive to see.

If the question is whether safeguards around age and treatment of children are effective due to the fact that people can leave the jurisdiction and pay privately to evade them, the question could just be framed like that.

I found Posier Parker using words like "castration" to a Mother about her child, abhorrent.

I don't think anyone should be arrested over the political positions they adopt for wider public interest reasons unless they are threatening violence but I part company when that sort of unnecessarily inflamatory language and lack of empathy is on display. And I condemn it whoever is using it, whatever their politics are. And I know there are lot of people who feel like me who have similar politics and feel similarily repulsed by that.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 14, 2018, 05:49:56 PM
Ok, iím going to do a bit of self disclosing here. This is a story that I have never fully told to anyone, so please bear with me.
 When I was quite young, about 13, my best mate was the son of family friends. Our two families did everything together, boozy parties, our mothersí went to slimming club, our dadsí helped out with DIY projects and fixing each otherís cars, and we all went on holiday together.  It was when we were on holiday in France that my best mate told me he was horny and pretty much pushed me into the menís shower room of the campsite we were staying on. When I say pushed, I mean bodily grabbed from behind, where he pushed his erect penis into my back, and despite my protestations, shoved me inside the building, then into a cubicle and locked the door. Keep in mind that this man is a clear foot taller than me and nearly 3 years older. He would have been 16 then, so a lot bigger and stronger than me.
 He pinned me down on the floor and repeatedly told me to Ďshut the fuck up otherwise Iíd get in trouble for being in the mensĎ shower room.í
 I was scared, I was fucking scared, because by that age I had already realised that whatever happened, it would be my fault. I was in there, what did I expect? What was I doing in there in the first place? I must have done something to lead him on etc.
 He stuck his tongue in my mouth and pulled my shorts dowb and stuck his fingers inside me. I couldnít object because he was on top of me, and he was heavy, and he was covering my mouth with his own.
 While still pinning me down with one hand, he lent round and pulled my shorts off, and said ícan I fuck you, just a bit? Come on, you know you want to,í  while at the same time trying to force his penis inside me.
 Repeatedly saying Ďno, stop ití wasnít enough for him, and if it wasnít for the physical unwillingness of my body and the smack to the side of the jaw that I gave him, he wouldnít have stopped.
 I threw my clothes back on and legged it round to the womensí toilets, locked myself in a cubicle and cried for a long time.
 I knew very well I couldnít tell anybody what had happened. It would be me who was the dirty little slut and my fault for being in the shower room.
 When I finally went back to the caravan my so-called friend was moaning that Iíd punched him, because I couldnít take a bit of fun. He was openly sneering at me because he also knew I wouldnít tell anyone and he was right, because when I got a bollocking of my mum I just made up some stupid story that we were messing around.
 I donít think he learnt anything that day apart from what he could get away with and how we could get away with it better, but I learnt a lot. I learned that I could never trust a man to respect my body, even one who is a close friend. I learnt that no doesnít mean know if he thinks it shouldnít, and I also learnt that men know what I know, which is any sexual abuse of violence perpetrated by them will be seen as and made out to be my fault.
 This is absolutely and completely the dead end reason why I will never believe or accept that people with penises, whether they identify as men, women, or non-binary Guinea pigs should be allowed in womensí single sex spaces. There isnít a day without rape in this world, probably isnít an hour or a minute without rape, and it has been proven time and again that predatory men will seek ways to get to women when they are at their most vulnerable. No amount of reassurances that they wouldnít do that or doublethink can make me ignore the evidence that I have seen my own life, around the world or throughout history convince me otherwise.   
A man who signs a piece of paper to say he is a woman is not a woman, he is a man,, because biology isnít a lie and everybody knows you cannot change sex. No person with a penis should be allowed in womenís single sex spaces full stop. 
 Often wonder if he even remembers that day, the day he raped me, because that was what it was.  I also wonder whether heís ever told anyone, and if not why not? Is it because he wonders whether it was somehow his fault or that he feels a sense of shame, like I do? I also wonder whether he ever tried it again with anyone else, and if I had spoken about it at the time whether I couldíve prevented it from happening to them.
 Very short version of this of course is that womenís single sex spaces were introduced for a reason. Those reasons  havenít gone away.
 I know thereís a few mistakes in this but I canít be bothered to go back and change them, otherwise Iíll probably chicken out and not post it.       
       
 
 
       
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 14, 2018, 06:43:47 PM
We only ever move forward when women are brave enough and given safe space to tell their stories. Iím glad you did, Slantie and Iím sorry that happened to you.

When I was living on a boat with a group sailing around Holland when I was sixteen, you had to go to the refreshment cubicle in the harbour to buy a token to use the shower.

The shower was in a purpose built portacabin.

A bloke behind the counter in his 50ís sold me the token and asked me if I was going to use it straight away. I said yes.

Five minutes later whilst I was naked and showering, he opened the locked door using a master key and came in and just stood there, ignoring my protests to leave. Eventually after a lot of screaming and shouting he did. Iíve no doubt that if I had gone to the police he would have lied and said he accidentally walked in not knowing it was occupied. I didnít tell anyone because I didnít think I would be believed. Anything that makes it easier for them to come into our space without being challenge or remain because they have a prima facie right to be there, increases the risk to us. I think everyone really knows this. They just donít want to admit that this is a non consensual trade off of our protections to make a smaller group safer. If we were arguing about whether that trade off was morally justified at least we would be having a fair fight. But they are denying us even that.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Plus One on May 14, 2018, 06:57:14 PM
I'm having a couple of issues with this debate:

1) My impression is that not too many people on here, if any, have any problem with transwomen (I'm defining that as a MtF fully transitioned person). But people do have a problem with the ability of any male self-IDing as female and gaining access to previously female only spaces. These people don't consider themselves transphobic
.

Itís an incredibly fine line. Itís like talking about race and immigration, race needs no discussion and no white person should presume to call for a Ďdebateí about it, whereas immigration is a reasonable political discussion point.



The problem is that a lot of racist want to talk about immigration because they use it as a back door to attack the object of their racism. Even people, like ourselves, who donít actually think of ourselves as racists, who arenít actively racist sometimes do things that are a little bit racist because of our cultural norms. Itís not a terriablr thing, I was raised in the 70s, itís amazing that Iím not more insensitivity to black peoples than I actually am but I have to take it on the chin that itís an evolving thing that I have to consider. That white privilege thing is a lot to take on board.

For example, your example of the person you used to work with has no place in a discussion about trans people. Your former colleague sounds like an arsehole but their gender identity is a dog whistle. If references to gender identity were removed and replaced with race identifiers and that anecdote was in the middle of a discussion about immigration, youíd be called out on it. It would be seen as a transparent Ďrace card callingí trope, which is the claim, despite all the evidences pointing the other way, that black peoples receive favourable treatment.

I've been trying for hours to get my response down to a short one and failing dismally...so here it is, it's terribly long but I'm fighting having my views misinterpreted or misrepresented... I get your point that it can be used as a back door but hear me out..

My work colleague example has every place in this discussion. The complaint of preferential treatment was a direct result of others feeling he was making it up, not necessarily because they thought trans people shouldnít get support at work. My point for mentioning it was merely that perceived abuse causes trouble for the genuine, not a one example means we should tar everyone with same brush. I absolutely accept that is exactly how it could be used. And that is a problem for sure, but it happened so it is a real example of the ease with which self-ID can be used as a means to an end.

How they would have reacted if heíd been living as a woman full time and presenting as one (ie had been trans for sure), who knows?!
 
You say my colleague sounds like an arsehole.  He might well be. I was sceptical, but I think I made it clear that I couldnít know if he was genuine or not. With self-ID no-one can make that call. He was untouchable.  Who can decide who the arseholes are?  That colleague can only be an arsehole if youíve decided that he was a man abusing the system. -^    I'm not allowed to judge.

When the campaign was all about LGB we had a variety of activism ranging from the likes of Lesbian Avengers to those being Ďterribly gratefulí for not being hated, and everything in between. We had a variety of voices, a variety of presentations. And crucially we had the numbers to express that variety.  You could hang your hat positively on some part of our community.

Transpeople do not exist in such numbers that Joe Public will get a balanced view with counteracting experiences, they have minimal visibility and voices. Your average Joe may have just one personal experience in their lives. It may be my ex-colleagueÖ. their opinions could just hang on that if they have no reason to think further.

Wouldnít it be better if Joe Publicís very few experiences were not something with the whiff of fakery? Wouldnít it be better to try to establish a framework where the loopholes have already been thought about? Where people felt their concerns had been addressed? Where the chances of a negative experience on both sides were lessened?

Right now it feels like we have the trans haters at one end versus the self-ID is King brigade at the other, with all the middle-grounders being told they are at the hater end of the stick regardless of their actual thoughts. Not to mention the whole Truscum thing.

Of course, itís a fine line. Lots of people seem unable to make distinctions... we see it with immigration, and with social benefits, and work sickness, etc. But Iím not struggling to make distinctions, I donít think anyone on my end of the argument on here is. This is not a new topic that we think about for 2 seconds and make a pronouncement. This is difficult, and uncomfortable, and it doesnít make me happy to have to stick a big ĒBUTĒ in the middle of my Pro Trans stance, I hate it. I hate that I feel I have to. My issue is with Self-IDing and the potential for abuse from men, not with transwomen, regardless of whether they pass or not, Iím not worried about transwomenÖbut I donít know how to separate the discussion because Trans Rights is the vehicle being used to promote it. If I were trans, Iíd be Truscum (and still be dismissed).


Iím concerned for women, no amount of anyone telling me Iím transphobic is going to change that. Checks and balances would help. A determination to avoid potential abuse in difficult areas would as well. Hearing voices that werenít filled with hate against biological women would go a long way. Not being constantly misrepresented would. Not being told that just saying ďIím a SheliaĒ is good enough to make a man ďmeĒ would.

Yet when I say Iím worried about men, you say Iím worried about transwomen! How can a real discussion start when we canít even get past that? Why would I even listen to anything anyone said if their assessment of my words was so twisted? They wouldn't be addressing my concerns, they wouldn't have even understood them.

(I've talked about transmen earlier in the discussion so I'll not repeat myself here. And for the record, supporting trans children is not child abuse in my book and to suggest it is is disusting. No parent is pushing for their child to be trans and I like to believe the medical profession has stringent guidelines to make sure mistakes aren't made - I don't read enough to know but I'd assume so).


Edited for repetition 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Plus One on May 14, 2018, 07:23:46 PM
Sorry for the cross over Slanty and Betty... not trying to gloss over your experiences, God knows we've all had them.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 14, 2018, 07:54:38 PM
Slantrhyme,
That's bloody awful. I'm so sorry that happened to you and thank you for sharing it.

You too, Betty.


But that's what we are concerned about, as PLUS One says, we are talking about men and male behaviour and wanting our safety to be considered. It's not being at the moment, rather we're called transphobic.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: સરસ on May 14, 2018, 08:04:37 PM
Very brave post Slanthrhyme .. I and many other people do understand what you went through.. all the guilt and shame that comes with rape.. and then the anger and fear that it may happen because we are just suppose to accept that a penis is now the new vagina..



I think I am more radical than both sides of this whole argument//debate..

I say fair play.. if you are a woman and want to become a man then we chop the tits off.. put you on T.. and let you be a man..


If you are a man who wants to become a woman the penis will get chopped and changed into a new vagina. You will get a pair of knockers and you will have all the oestrogen you can dream of baby!!

Obviously as soon as there is a 100% success rate we can have lists and people who wants to can have mix and match operations https://news.sky.com/story/surgeons-perform-first-scrotum-and-penis-transplant-11344617
My tits for your dick-kinda operations.


Anyways.. most probably the majority of Transguys I have met fully transitioned and are men. All the Transwomen I have met and known also only fully transitioned . . I even paid for two tit jobs myself. One to get tits and one to get rid of the tits.

Not one of all the women I have ever met wanted to cling on to their penii.. no mater what and one of them even sucked other men's dicks for almost 4 years to get her own chopped off.
 
Sadly I do not feel at ease with any person who wants to retain their bodies as is but claim to be something else.. If you do not make any attempt to transition at all and then moan when I get a pronoun wrong ... well.. *shrug shoulders*.. if you then choose a name that can be a sort man's or woman's name like Alex or Charlie and moan people get the pronoun wrong.. sorry..


I get sir and he and him or man quite a lot.. my whole life.. I get looked at when I visit public facilities..  You know what.. it happens.. and will continue to happen.. Because I sort of look like a man... or people do not see the obvious pair of tits dangling about.. sooooooo....

If you transition sort of.. but stay the same and do not make any attempt to fucking transition to whatever the hell it is you want us to think/know you are.. then don't complain if someone get your pronoun wrong..

I am good with trans people.. Those who transition.. young old  fat and thin ugly or pretty....Nothing to do with me really and I think they are brave and bravo.. ..I am however not good at all with those ones who are neither a this or a that but by wants to have their cake and eat it..

Urghhh.. I think I actually forgot what I wanted to say.. really say.. It will come back..





Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 14, 2018, 08:15:05 PM
@Plus One


I donít think that your colleague can only be an arsehole if they werenít trans, not doing your job and allowing others to pick up the slack, makes you an arsehole.

I donít suppose for a moment that most people get up in the morning and decide that theyíre going to either oppress a minority group or be offensive. Iím sure that all of the straight guys whoíve asked me Ďwhoís the man?í, have felt that they were making small talk or even being funny.

Intent isnít the qualifier for being transphobic (or racist or sexist), men who make demeaning remarks about womenís bodies often feel that they are being complimentary. The men who ask for Ďthe bossí, often isnít doing to demean, but as a result of social conditioning.

I donít think that anyone here want to sting up trans women. I donít think that anyone want to strip them of the vote or see them come to physical harm but they are being blamed for the crimes of CIS men, which is unfair and transphobic.

Three posters have disclosed sexual assault, an experience that many of us can empathise with, lesbians are just as likely to be the victim of sexual assault as het women, one has said that thatís left her feeling that trans women should be kept out of womenís spaces.

So, if Musetteís daughter sticks to the approved treatment protocols and canít have surgery, assuming she want it, until sheís 18 or more likely with waiting lists 21; sheís thrown into the menís loos? Not because sheís a rapist but because a man was a rapist. The drip feed of Ďotheringí has allowed people to see that as reasonable. That Musetteís child wonít be taken on her merits but on an assumed set of prejudices.

The only way that a reasonable person can square that, and most of us are reasonable, is by sticking with the idea that Musetteís child is lesser, more dangerous, not as trustworthy.

I donít want to see any woman abused or raped but I donít see one group as more worthy of being thrown to the wolves, than another. I donít see trans women as acceptable collateral damage for male violence.

We need to hold men responsible for their actions, blaming another type of woman feels regressive and anti feminist.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: સરસ on May 14, 2018, 08:19:45 PM
If a man is willing to get his penis chopped and get a pair of tits and take oestrogen ... I am happy with that 100% but I still don't want that woman to take a place away from a born female in any sport.  I do not want that woman to speak on behalf of cis women and the issues that comes with that.

A cis woman and a women who transitioned can be on the same side of any argument in my eyes.. but the one can not pretend to know what the journey was and is for the other one..

I have no idea if the above makes me a terf or a swerf or a merf or even a gerf..

Anyways.. that was a bit random because I am still trying to think what I actually wanted to post about..

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 14, 2018, 08:27:09 PM
Making men responsible for their actions is not a good enough solution for me.

If I hadnít managed to convince him not to rape me in that shower room at the age of 16, I wouldnít be holding no victory parade if I eventually got him to atone  for what he did.

I want to stop him doing it in the first place. And every protection we have taken from us makes that harder.

And our permission is neither being sought nor given for this.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 14, 2018, 08:50:42 PM
I certainly don't want to throw trans women into either gents,
I'm just not willing to have penises in the women's.
We and they can lobby for gender neutral loos as well as men's and womens.
Problem solved for everyone.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 14, 2018, 08:52:24 PM
I want to stop him doing it in the first place. And every protection we have taken from us makes that harder
.

Believe me, we all want him to stop doing it. I donít want anyone to have the experience youíve described but neither of the experiences mentioned would have been prevented by trans women having the GRC process currently in place verses the GRC process proposed.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 14, 2018, 08:59:09 PM
I certainly don't want to throw trans women into either gents,
I'm just not willing to have penises in the women's.
We and they can lobby for gender neutral loos as well as men's and womens.
Problem solved for everyone.

So how are you going to keep trans women and girls, who havenít undergone surgery, out of the ladies?

Are you looking to roll back the Equalities Act or the Gender Recognition Act? Where, exactly do you want to go back to?



Itís odd, an NHS consultation into gender identity services was published yesterday and over a quarter of the respondents were some kind of anti trans treatment, TERFS and the Christian Right both responded basically, asking for conversion therapies instead. It seems that many of those who donít want dick in the ladies, also donít want dicks removed.

https://www.engage.england.nhs.uk/survey/gender-identity-services-for-adults/user_uploads/report-independent-analysis-consultation-responses-gender-identity-service-specifications.pdf (https://www.engage.england.nhs.uk/survey/gender-identity-services-for-adults/user_uploads/report-independent-analysis-consultation-responses-gender-identity-service-specifications.pdf)
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 14, 2018, 09:02:35 PM
Gender recognition based on self Id is intended to be used for all legal purposes.  Biological Sex will disappear as a protected characteristic. At the moment we have no guarantees about how we will be effected and we need to be consulted and have our concerns factored in.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Plus One on May 14, 2018, 09:11:59 PM
@Plus One


I donít think that your colleague can only be an arsehole if they werenít trans, not doing your job and allowing others to pick up the slack, makes you an arsehole.

Well let's conveniently forget how he was able to do that then

Quote


I donít suppose for a moment that most people get up in the morning and decide that theyíre going to either oppress a minority group or be offensive. Iím sure that all of the straight guys whoíve asked me Ďwhoís the man?í, have felt that they were making small talk or even being funny.

Intent isnít the qualifier for being transphobic (or racist or sexist), men who make demeaning remarks about womenís bodies often feel that they are being complimentary. The men who ask for Ďthe bossí, often isnít doing to demean, but as a result of social conditioning.

I donít think that anyone here want to sting up trans women. I donít think that anyone want to strip them of the vote or see them come to physical harm but they are being blamed for the crimes of CIS men, which is unfair and transphobic.


Yes, yes, I'm transphobic for worrying about men abusing a system that you have decided no-one has abused even when given a rather simple example. And I'm blaming transwomen even when I've explicitly stated I don't.

Quote

Two posters have disclosed sexual assault, an experience that many of us can empathise with, lesbians are just as likely to be the victim of sexual assault as het women, one has said that thatís left her feeling that trans women should be kept out of womenís spaces.


Well, she should jolly well get her transphobic arse over it obviously. There's absolutely no reason to take into account women's feelings or experiences at all. It's all about making everyone else as comfortable as possible.

Quote

So, if Musetteís daughter sticks to the approved treatment protocols and canít have surgery, assuming she want it, until sheís 18 or more likely with waiting lists 21; sheís thrown into the menís loos? Not because sheís a rapist but because a man was a rapist. The drip feed of Ďotheringí has allowed people to see that as reasonable. That Musetteís child wonít be taken on her merits but on an assumed set of prejudices.

The only way that a reasonable person can square that, and most of us are reasonable, is by sticking with the idea that Musetteís child is lesser, more dangerous, not as trustworthy.


Not my words, not my thoughts. Do I have to mention yet again that I don't find transwomen threat? Do all women have to react the same way to their experiences?
It is quite possible that instead of having men/women loos, or altogether loos, you could have altogether and women's loos in the same place! Or altogether, men's and women's loos.  You could have a scenario where everyone is capable of feeling comfortable. It doesn't have to be either/or. It just take the will to give a shit about women who are uncomfortable rather than just decide others take priority.

Quote

I donít want to see any woman abused or raped but I donít see one group as more worthy of being thrown to the wolves, than another. I donít see trans women as acceptable collateral damage for male violence.

We need to hold men responsible for their actions, blaming another type of woman feels regressive and anti feminist.

I don't see women, whether trans or bio, as collateral damage for any male violence. The work around is not to throw women's experiences out the window, it's finding ways to accomodate everyone. I'm quite sure it's possible, but not whilst any woman opening her mouth is told time and time again that she's just transphobic and her feelings and opinions, based of a life time of experience, just don't matter. All I hear is "Get over it bitches".

I'm about done now.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: સરસ on May 14, 2018, 09:13:49 PM


So, if Musetteís daughter sticks to the approved treatment protocols and canít have surgery, assuming she want it, until sheís 18 or more likely with waiting lists 21; sheís thrown into the menís loos? Not because sheís a rapist but because a man was a rapist. The drip feed of Ďotheringí has allowed people to see that as reasonable. That Musetteís child wonít be taken on her merits but on an assumed set of prejudices.



I think you are either pretending not to understand what posters are saying because that is how you get your kicks ....or you  just don't understand at all..

Let me try and explain.. I will type slowly just for you..

I honestly think if Musette's daughter and I walked into a toilet I will be the one other women would rather not be there.. You understand why? Because the the kid is a girl.. and wants to be one.. and is trying her best to become one  the way she sees herself as medically close as possible.. from her pinky toes all the way to her hair.. Not me.. I don't mind me looking masculine.. Chicks dig it... I have yet to find one poster here on GB who would chuck Musette's daughter out of the bathroom.


Now on the other hand.. if Harry next door starts using a women's facilities because he is a pervert.. well it is a clear NO fucking way! from everyone here.. including you..

Are you still with me here Top?


So then there is Charlie.. Charlie does not want to be a man anymore because Charlie thinks he/she is a woman.. but Charlie is rather fond of her/his dick.. Charlie also don't really want to change much  or transition but he likes us to call her by the right pronouns. So we do.. but gets it wrong every now and then.. because Charlie still uses his dick and is still using the privileges of being a man. Charlie does not think of the rest of womankind as a sisterhood.. Oh no.. Charlie is more women than all of the women.. Dick and all.. Charlie think abortion and pregnancy as cis privileges..  Charlie would run the 100m sprint as a woman and if he wins and other women moans that means they are trans phobic..

Most women as far as I can tell would not really want Charlie in women's facilities.. Because we can not tell if she is a threat or not.. so we rather err on caution..  With so many of us being raped and moslested well.. we have our reasons..

It does not mean that Charlie is a pervert or a rapist.. but the object most of us get raped with is still a price possession of Charlie ..Charlie's penis..

Sadly for Charlie she also will struggle to have an enormous pool she can pick and choose to date from.. The majority of men who are into women like their women to have vaginas.. the same with women who are into women.. we like vaginas.. a lot.. We don't like dick..not even on a woman..If Charlie sees the light and get less attached to her dick she stand a better chance already getting to pee with other women and who knows.. even score on the love side with men or women..

Right now I think we can both agree that Harry next door should not be able to self id or use women's facilities..

I think we can both say that Musette's daughter is welcome to the the women's toilet and that she should get all the help she can along her journey.. Medically and emotionally..With the help of her Mother I am pretty damn sure she is going to make a fine woman..

Now back to Charlie..

I am not sure we agree on Charlie.. Seems you rather give all the rights to Charlie and screw whatever it is I (and other posters) are saying because we are such terrible transphobes..


Maybe I am wrong in my explanation.. I will give someone else the chance to explain to you.. maybe even slower..








Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 14, 2018, 09:32:15 PM
I am not sure we agree on Charlie.. Seems you rather give all the rights to Charlie and screw whatever it is I (and other posters) are saying because we are such terrible ]transphobes
..


Please keep going, Iím desperate to hear how youíd legislate for the situations youíve described or are you just going to have loo guards stationed outside, taking things on a case by case basis? Will they be issued with a mop and bucket for accidents that occure while the personal history is being taken?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: two monkeys on May 14, 2018, 09:39:11 PM
How can we legislate?

Gee I dunno. I wonder, maybe could we all have a conversation about it?



Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 14, 2018, 09:39:37 PM
Gender recognition based on self Id is intended to be used for all legal purposes.  Biological Sex will disappear as a protected characteristic. At the moment we have no guarantees about how we will be effected and we need to be consulted and have our concerns factored in.

No biological sex is a protected characteristic under the Equalities Act, no one is proposing amending the EA. I know that Ditum got that wrong in the Guardian at the weekend but, honestly go and check.

The proposed changes to the GRA with change the trans protected characteristic from Ďgender reassignmentí, which has never actually been defined at surgery, to Ďgender identityí, another nebulous terms, unlikely to be defined. However, neither of those terms will impact on the sex based protections provided by the EA.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: two monkeys on May 14, 2018, 09:41:59 PM
@ Slanty, thanks for sharing your story. That was brave. Very sorry you had to experience that.

You too Betty.

@ Musette, been thinking of you and your girl. Hope all is well
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 14, 2018, 09:45:13 PM
Like 99.93% of transgender assertions and assumptions this is dangerous misogynist and homophobic hate speech.

When the above is your starting point, people arenít going to want to have a conversation with you. It just doesnít suggest that your starting from a place of respect or acceptance. Try by all means, but Iím not sure thatís going to get you in the door.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: two monkeys on May 14, 2018, 10:02:33 PM
Oh dear. Is a bit of hyperbole going go keep me out of the conversation?

That's like, literal violence!  :'(
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 14, 2018, 10:14:03 PM
Oh dear. Is a bit of hyperbole going go keep me out of the conversation?

That's like, literal violence!  :'(

Iím very sorry to have slienced you by by quoting what you said. I can see that holding you to your own words is an absolutely outrageous way of oppressing you and all women. Iím sure that your view are balanced and reasonable and assuming that theyíre not just because you said that is unspeakably misogynistic.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: hellohowareyoutoday on May 14, 2018, 10:20:02 PM
Unless someone goes and gets me a Papa Johns pizza soon, I am going to be very triggered. Mushrooms and olives, no cheese. Tell them Pete sent you.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: two monkeys on May 14, 2018, 10:25:22 PM
Oh dear. Is a bit of hyperbole going go keep me out of the conversation?

That's like, literal violence!  :'(

Iím very sorry to have slienced you by by quoting what you said. I can see that holding you to your own words is an absolutely outrageous way of oppressing you and all women. Iím sure that your view are balanced and reasonable and assuming that theyíre not just because you said that is unspeakably misogynistic.

Thank you. Apology accepted.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: સરસ on May 14, 2018, 10:25:58 PM
I am not sure we agree on Charlie.. Seems you rather give all the rights to Charlie and screw whatever it is I (and other posters) are saying because we are such terrible ]transphobes
..


Please keep going, Iím desperate to hear how youíd legislate for the situations youíve described or are you just going to have loo guards stationed outside, taking things on a case by case basis? Will they be issued with a mop and bucket for accidents that occure while the personal history is being taken?

Nope.. No loo guards..Just you because clearly you know all the right answers to everything and everyone.. You also ignore what everyone else so far said.. or twisted it..  So you seem to be the right one for that very important job..

At the same time you might think about what threats and rights we cis women are worthy off.. because we clearly don't know..

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 14, 2018, 10:28:52 PM
Unless someone goes and gets me a Papa Johns pizza soon, I am going to be very triggered. Mushrooms and olives, no cheese. Tell them Pete sent you.

Iím not sure thatís on the acceptable list of tropes, however, I understand gammon is available.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 14, 2018, 10:42:34 PM
Nope.. No loo guards..Just you because clearly you know all the right answers to everything and everyone.. You also ignore what everyone else so far said.. or twisted it..  So you seem to be the right one for that very important job
..

I absolutely donít have the answer for the set up you describe but I can tell you that no one is going to be able to making into law what you want.


Quote
At the same time you might think about what threats and rights we cis women are worthy off.. because we clearly don't know..

First up, I know what the law is at the moment and itís that anyone can use any public loo they like. I know that Paris Lee doesnít have a GRC but uses the ladies, without question and doesít compromise the safety or dignity of anyone else. She just wees. Iíve got no idea what Paris has in her pants and I know that itís none of my business.

I *think* that the person you donít want in the loo, is the weekend gender fucker and I get that but that person also isnít going to have a GRC and is never going to apply for one because theyíre not a woman. However, itís only social convention that keeps them out of the ladies.

There are no proposals to change that law. Are you troubled by the current situation, have you had any problems with it?

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Lust for Life on May 14, 2018, 10:57:10 PM
I have been reading and learning, and am glad that lots has been explained on all sides. I am really glad Top is back, and that so many Beeries have invested so much energy in this thread.

Without wishing to join in a pile-on, I am a bit bewildered as to why, Top, you won't tell us what you think about a man self-id ing as a woman for nefarious reasons. You've told us it doesn't happen in Ireland. Plus one has got a close-as-dammit example of it happening in England.

Transgender people can be fully protected without self-id ing being instantly possible. The benefits of self id for transpeople are clear. However, the risks to women (including transgender women) are - in those small number of cases where cis men abuse self id - in my view probably too great. Because the only men who would do that are the worst kind of men.

Would you be willing to answer a direct question? What do you think about those men gaining access to women's prisons and women's refuges?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 14, 2018, 11:14:17 PM
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prince-edward-island/pei-human-rights-complaint-1.3735833

I found this one quite odd.

The trans complainant in this case wouldn't have necessarily have been identifiable to the beautician as a trans woman when she refused her service.

She says she refused service because she had seen the complainant whom she thought was a man, hanging around where she parks to the extent that she felt uneasy when "he" (as she perceived him to be at that stage) turned up at her store. She thought she was being stalked essentially. And as her store was only one room where she worked alone, she felt unsafe.

Essentially, its a woman who got freaked out at what she thought was a male stalker and is now being sued for protecting her own safety and publically shamed as transphobic with all the mad-ass baggage that carries in Canada. This is one of the jurisdictions quoted as proving that self id is not problematic.

I see women being required by the law to ignore instincts around their safety and risk being put out of business for making a judgment call where they should be allowed to err on the side of caution, problematic.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 14, 2018, 11:22:34 PM
What's going on in Canada is really alarming.
Though this website that collates the UK crimes committed by trans individuals isn't bedtime reading.

http://transcrimeuk.com/category/sexual-offences/indecent-exposure-public-decency/


There's a fair few public decency convictions in there... But of course no one would take advantage of a gender neutral changing room,  would they?

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 14, 2018, 11:23:03 PM
Without wishing to join in a pile-on, I am a bit bewildered as to why, Top, you won't tell us what you think about a man self-id ing as a woman for nefarious reasons. You've told us it doesn't happen in Ireland. Plus one has got a close-as-dammit example of it happening in England
.

Thatís not what Plus One described but thatís a side issue, rather than try and answer this question again, which obviously isnít working using my own words, Iíll quote someone a tad more qualified:



ďThe primary objection is a belief that, if there is no procedure to verify that individuals genuinely self-identify with their asserted gender, dishonest men will improperly claim a female identity in order to access women-only spaces (increasing the risks of assault). In addition, opponents object that self-determination would create a right for trans women, who have no intention to medically transition, to enter locker rooms and public restrooms.

There are, however, important difficulties with abuse-focused objections to self-determination.

Such arguments are a solution to a problem that does not appear to exist. Despite the persistent invocation of assault-focused opposition to trans rights, there is little (if any) evidence that cisgender men use those rights to commit crime. Although, in the UK and around the world, many men do perpetrate assaults against women (often in women-only spaces), they are not dishonestly using trans legal protections to facilitate their crimes. Rather, these men enter segregated facilities in open violation of the law. While reforming the 2004 Act may not reduce the instance of male-pattern violence, neither would it assist nor encourage the commission of such violence.

Claims of potential abuse deny trans populations beneficial legal reforms on the basis that (cisgender) persons Ė over whom trans communities have no control Ė might subsequently misuse the law. They are not objective evidence against either the desirability or utility of self-declared gender. If there is a risk of cisgender abuse, rather than punishing trans communities, the Government should address that risk through appropriate channels, such as existing criminal laws.

Abuse-focused opposition to self-determination typically misrepresents existing UK laws. To the extent that one suggests that self-determination would create a new right for trans women, who reject medical transitions, to enter women-only spaces, this ignores current protections set out in the Equality Act 2010 (2010 Act).

Section 7 of the 2010 Act establishes that persons who have a Ďgender reassignmentí characteristic enjoy broad non-discrimination protections. It defines gender reassignment to include a ďperson [who] is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the personís sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sexĒ [emphasis added] (i.e. the person need not be undertaking a medical transition). Therefore, according to s. 7, there already exists a general right for trans women Ė irrespective of their medical status or whether they have a Gender Recognition Certificate Ė to access appropriate goods and services (such as single-gender hospital wards, etc.).

The 2010 Act does contain two high-profile exceptions which entitle persons providing single-gender services and communal accommodations to exclude trans persons as a ďproportionate means of achieving a legitimate aimĒ (Schedule 3, Part 7(28); Schedule 23(3)). The prime example of such a scenario (referred to in the explanatory notes) is a counselling service for vulnerable women, where service users may refuse to attend sessions if trans women are permitted to attend.

In practice, however, Schedules 3 and 23 are (at least in certain public sectors) rarely applied. Showing a legitimate aim is a high threshold, and many service providers (and users) understand the importance of respecting trans identities (while also appreciating that trans women pose no threat in female-only spaces). Even if this was not the case (and the exceptions were more frequently relied upon), the Governmentís proposals would have little impact. Schedules 3 and 23 can operate even where a person has a Gender Recognition Certificate. Thus, assuming that Parliament retains the relevant provisions of the 2010 Act (which currently appears to be the case), self-declaring oneís preferred legal gender would still (where the high bar of a ďlegitimate reasonĒ is satisfied) allow exemptions for the right to access gender-specific spaces (guaranteed by the 2010 Act) to continue.Ē




Please go and rad the article, there are some comments at the end from the authors, talking about their experience of what actually happens in prisons, from people who regularly go into prisons:

http://ohrh.law.ox.ac.uk/gender-recognition-self-determination-and-segregated-space/ (http://ohrh.law.ox.ac.uk/gender-recognition-self-determination-and-segregated-space/)


Quote
Transgender people can be fully protected without self-id ing being instantly possible. The benefits of self id for transpeople are clear....

Youíre conflating self ID and instant ID, I can see why, itís a fairly common misapprehension, however, the two donít autimatically follow. Maria Millerís consultation has said that two years is too long, not that it would be instant.

Women have been told that Freddy the Falsher will be able to pop into his local solicitor, promise heís a lady and go for a wank in front of the rest of us without consequence but wanking or exposing yourself in public will still be a crime, as cis women, neither of us can start touching or exposing ourselves in view of others. Someone fraudulent obtaining a GRC to do so, is looking at being charged with two crimes, both the fraud and the sex offence, rather than one and, unforgivablely, the fraud is likely to carry the higher sentence.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 14, 2018, 11:33:39 PM
I see women being required by the law to ignore instincts around their safety and risk being put out of business for making a judgment call where they should be allowed to err on the side of caution, problematic.

I think that it will be interesting to see how that one goes. Of course, itís not alright to refuse service based on sex or gender presentation but no one should be expected to serve a stalker. The process is explained at the bottom of the article and seems reasonable enough. Iím sure youíve seen reports of legal proceeding in newspapers that you wouldnít recognise if you were up close to them. Accurate reporting often isnít very interesting.

Quote
If a complaint is filed, a copy is sent to the accused and they're given an opportunity to file a response with an explanation and their version of events.

The commission does not represent the complainant, said Picard, and individuals, businesses, or organizations are encouraged to contact the commission for help and advice.

The commission can help parties enter negotiation and mediation. If that doesn't work there may be an investigation by a Human Rights Commission lawyer to determine if there is basis for a hearing.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 14, 2018, 11:34:07 PM
 Top, I feel pretty uncomfortable about you using the example of another board memberĎs child to score points. I do not know this member or her child beyond the information in  the post a couple of pages back, I have no idea what her opinions are in these matters but I think it pretty low of you to do that. If youíve discussed it with her and itís fine then say so, otherwise it looks like  a cheap manipulative trick.   
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 14, 2018, 11:37:58 PM
How can you prove a certificate was fraudulently applied for when all the accused has to say is but I feel like a woman, (sometimes or all the time or just for that forty minutes I was staring at the women and girls in the changing room with my ladies robe open).

It's farcical... If you only need a document, you will get abuse.
It's the perfect cover. No one can prove or disprove a feeling.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 14, 2018, 11:40:31 PM
What's going on in Canada is really alarming
.

No, a lawsuit over someone getting or not getting their nails done isnít really alarming, unless youíre very easily startled.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 14, 2018, 11:40:31 PM
Its just more disingenous chatting of bubbles. You present what is essentially a piece of pro-trans political rhetoric albeit very lawerly presented due to the type of publication it is almost as if it is a direct quote from a Government body. I could whip off something similar and send it to them tomorrow and I am suitably qualified to do so and it would pretty much say the opposite. Its an opinion piece.

The actual link to the Government's official position contains none of the assumptions they or you adopt about how it will work in practice.

The "abuse based focused objections are a solution to a problem which does not appear to exist" - yeah, off you fuck pal.

And yet again, there is no guarantee that Freddie the Flasher will have to do a stat dec and if he does how is going to be proved he was lieing about what he believed his then gender id was. Because you can't be prosecuted for getting it wrong and not staying that way forever. "I felt like a girl when I did the stat dec but I had doubts on my way home" is not fraud.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Musette on May 14, 2018, 11:50:39 PM
This is an aside.
I just wanted to say thanks to all who have expressed concern/interest over NTC.
She is still on puberty blockers and now female hormones as well.
The drugs make her infertile but she decided (after counselling) that it was a price worth paying.
She wants surgery as soon as possible, but as has been pointed out, that won't be feasible for about 5 years due to age limits and waiting times.
She is tall and clever and charming and funny. I'm sure the Beeries who have met her would agree with that description.
She wants to be a paleontologist. Indeed, she is determined to be a paleontologist.

I'm not sure how any of this fits into what's going on here or in the outside world, but my life is hard enough without adding to my stress by arguing about it.
I'm following with interest though and I do appreciate GB as a place of fierce and intelligent discussion.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 14, 2018, 11:52:01 PM
Quote
The "abuse based focused objections are a solution to a problem which does not appear to exist" - yeah, off you fuck pal.

Itís much easier to prove that something does happen than doesnít but you still havenít proved that it does.

Knock out that document, show that men are fraudulently obtaining GRCs to perv in the ladies because all were really talking about is the difference between a two year wait and a shorter one. If itís a thing, some pervs must be good at planning.

We already did the Ďwhat the stat dec would declareí. There is no evidence that it would be Ďdo you currently feel girlyí, it could equally be Ďhave you been living as a woman for two yearsí the same standard thatís in place now but without the medical paper work.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 14, 2018, 11:52:05 PM
I see women being required by the law to ignore instincts around their safety and risk being put out of business for making a judgment call where they should be allowed to err on the side of caution, problematic.

I think that it will be interesting to see how that one goes. Of course, itís not alright to refuse service based on sex or gender presentation but no one should be expected to serve a stalker. The process is explained at the bottom of the article and seems reasonable enough. Iím sure youíve seen reports of legal proceeding in newspapers that you wouldnít recognise if you were up close to them. Accurate reporting often isnít very interesting.

Quote
If a complaint is filed, a copy is sent to the accused and they're given an opportunity to file a response with an explanation and their version of events.

The commission does not represent the complainant, said Picard, and individuals, businesses, or organizations are encouraged to contact the commission for help and advice.

The commission can help parties enter negotiation and mediation. If that doesn't work there may be an investigation by a Human Rights Commission lawyer to determine if there is basis for a hearing.

Oh thats alright then. Lets hope every woman alone in her store presented with a stalker is aware of  those meagre future procedural protections when she makes the decision whether to risk her life or her livelihood.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 14, 2018, 11:55:56 PM
So thereís a creepy bloke in the toilets flashing his bits at women. Heís got a GRC and she said he wasnít flashing and she was only using the toilet. But of course everybody knows that women are always believed about these things... and of course she is a woman, now. Oh and woman who has just been flashed at, stop being transphobic.
 And I wonder in the current climate, how companies and organisations would feel using the exceptions in the equalities act, what with all this doxxing and the TRAs in the media screaming transphobia, and you know, companies and organisations being a bit worried about their funding streams? I bet somebody who is quicker and better at finding links could find numerous examples.   
 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 14, 2018, 11:56:31 PM
Quote
The "abuse based focused objections are a solution to a problem which does not appear to exist" - yeah, off you fuck pal.

Itís much easier to prove that something does happen than doesnít but you still havenít proved that it does.

Knock out that document, show that men are fraudulently obtaining GRCs to perv in the ladies because all were really talking about is the difference between a two year wait and a shorter one. If itís a thing, some pervs must be good at planning.

We already did the Ďwhat the stat dec would declareí. There is no evidence that it would be Ďdo you currently feel girlyí, it could equally be Ďhave you been living as a woman for two yearsí the same standard thatís in place now but without the medical paper work.

No. "Have you been living as a woman for two years" is objective evidence of transition. Its explicity not going to be required.

Its not the difference between a two year wait and a shorter one. Its the difference between objective including medical evidence and pure self id.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 14, 2018, 11:57:54 PM
What's going on in Canada is really alarming
.

No, a lawsuit over someone getting or not getting their nails done isnít really alarming, unless youíre very easily startled.

We could have a thread JUST about the fallout with trans issues in Canada.
You're a twitter user, and you must see all the stories.

The stories are never ending.

A business - sweet shop -  that supported a charity walk for the oldest rape crisis centre in Toronto simply by displaying the flyer, was bombarded with hateful comments and accusations of transphobia tbecause that rape crisis Centre is the only one in the city that doesn't admit trans women. All other centres do but that one feels there should be at least one place that is exclusive to women who were born women.
There is a general climate of fear in Canada around speaking up for the protection of the of female only spaces.

It's all there on the Internet.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Lust for Life on May 15, 2018, 12:00:14 AM
Ok, I appreciate that you tried to answer my question, Top.

To be honest, I would have preferred you to give the answer in your own words as the answer you cut and pasted clearly also referred to a whole load of things I didn't ask you about (transwomen, for a start). I did look at the source article you linked, and there was only one answer about prison experience, which wasn't really enough to reassure me. But I don't want to Insist you come back on this question again.

As a kind of aside... One of the interesting experiences I had in Dublin recently was frequently sitting on the top deck of a bus. Since the current abortion referendum campaign has an awful lot of placards placed at top deck height, and since the buses have free internet, I found it quite confrontational to go from 'that's got to be a blatant lie' to working out that some of the no campaign's unpalatable statistics are only slight exaggerations. But, even knowing that there are some (small minority) of women who (in my view) seem to use abortion as an alternative to contraception, I still think it's better to allow abortion. So, having thought a lot about that issue recently, I can see the parallel of the greater good.

I suppose what I fervently hope is that there will be laws actually used to convict men of fraud if they attempt to misuse self id legislation. And a time element would be great. Personally I don't see why two years is too long (time frame for change of nationality is often longer), but on the other hand notification of wanting to get married is only a few weeks - I hope it's more than that.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 15, 2018, 12:03:14 AM
Without wishing to join in a pile-on, I am a bit bewildered as to why, Top, you won't tell us what you think about a man self-id ing as a woman for nefarious reasons. You've told us it doesn't happen in Ireland. Plus one has got a close-as-dammit example of it happening in England
.

Thatís not what Plus One described but thatís a side issue, rather than try and answer this question again, which obviously isnít working using my own words, Iíll quote someone a tad more qualified:



ďThe primary objection is a belief that, if there is no procedure to verify that individuals genuinely self-identify with their asserted gender, dishonest men will improperly claim a female identity in order to access women-only spaces (increasing the risks of assault). In addition, opponents object that self-determination would create a right for trans women, who have no intention to medically transition, to enter locker rooms and public restrooms.

There are, however, important difficulties with abuse-focused objections to self-determination.

Such arguments are a solution to a problem that does not appear to exist. Despite the persistent invocation of assault-focused opposition to trans rights, there is little (if any) evidence that cisgender men use those rights to commit crime. Although, in the UK and around the world, many men do perpetrate assaults against women (often in women-only spaces), they are not dishonestly using trans legal protections to facilitate their crimes. Rather, these men enter segregated facilities in open violation of the law. While reforming the 2004 Act may not reduce the instance of male-pattern violence, neither would it assist nor encourage the commission of such violence.

Claims of potential abuse deny trans populations beneficial legal reforms on the basis that (cisgender) persons Ė over whom trans communities have no control Ė might subsequently misuse the law. They are not objective evidence against either the desirability or utility of self-declared gender. If there is a risk of cisgender abuse, rather than punishing trans communities, the Government should address that risk through appropriate channels, such as existing criminal laws.

Abuse-focused opposition to self-determination typically misrepresents existing UK laws. To the extent that one suggests that self-determination would create a new right for trans women, who reject medical transitions, to enter women-only spaces, this ignores current protections set out in the Equality Act 2010 (2010 Act).

Section 7 of the 2010 Act establishes that persons who have a Ďgender reassignmentí characteristic enjoy broad non-discrimination protections. It defines gender reassignment to include a ďperson [who] is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the personís sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sexĒ [emphasis added] (i.e. the person need not be undertaking a medical transition). Therefore, according to s. 7, there already exists a general right for trans women Ė irrespective of their medical status or whether they have a Gender Recognition Certificate Ė to access appropriate goods and services (such as single-gender hospital wards, etc.).

The 2010 Act does contain two high-profile exceptions which entitle persons providing single-gender services and communal accommodations to exclude trans persons as a ďproportionate means of achieving a legitimate aimĒ (Schedule 3, Part 7(28); Schedule 23(3)). The prime example of such a scenario (referred to in the explanatory notes) is a counselling service for vulnerable women, where service users may refuse to attend sessions if trans women are permitted to attend.

In practice, however, Schedules 3 and 23 are (at least in certain public sectors) rarely applied. Showing a legitimate aim is a high threshold, and many service providers (and users) understand the importance of respecting trans identities (while also appreciating that trans women pose no threat in female-only spaces). Even if this was not the case (and the exceptions were more frequently relied upon), the Governmentís proposals would have little impact. Schedules 3 and 23 can operate even where a person has a Gender Recognition Certificate. Thus, assuming that Parliament retains the relevant provisions of the 2010 Act (which currently appears to be the case), self-declaring oneís preferred legal gender would still (where the high bar of a ďlegitimate reasonĒ is satisfied) allow exemptions for the right to access gender-specific spaces (guaranteed by the 2010 Act) to continue.Ē




Please go and rad the article, there are some comments at the end from the authors, talking about their experience of what actually happens in prisons, from people who regularly go into prisons:

http://ohrh.law.ox.ac.uk/gender-recognition-self-determination-and-segregated-space/ (http://ohrh.law.ox.ac.uk/gender-recognition-self-determination-and-segregated-space/)


Quote
Transgender people can be fully protected without self-id ing being instantly possible. The benefits of self id for transpeople are clear....

Youíre conflating self ID and instant ID, I can see why, itís a fairly common misapprehension, however, the two donít autimatically follow. Maria Millerís consultation has said that two years is too long, not that it would be instant.

Women have been told that Freddy the Falsher will be able to pop into his local solicitor, promise heís a lady and go for a wank in front of the rest of us without consequence but wanking or exposing yourself in public will still be a crime, as cis women, neither of us can start touching or exposing ourselves in view of others. Someone fraudulent obtaining a GRC to do so, is looking at being charged with two crimes, both the fraud and the sex offence, rather than one and, unforgivablely, the fraud is likely to carry the higher sentence.

I  believe this is the "tad more qualified" person Top refers to who co- wrote this supposedly impartial, objective piece :

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/what-its-like-transgender-catholic-10810323


Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 15, 2018, 12:05:45 AM
Quote
Oh thats alright then. Lets hope every woman alone in her store presented with a stalker is aware of  those meagre future procedural protections when she makes the decision whether to risk her life or her livelihood.

Presumably, in a progressive place like Canada she would have also faced the same sort of situation if she did,or could have been perceived to have, turned down a curstimer in the grounds of sex, race of sexual identity. Would you be happy for those protections to be thrown out, in the hope of saving the business owner a bit of grief?

To get rid of discrimination laws, would have the biggest impact on women, weíre the ones most often protected by them or is therrr no baby too big to throw out with this bathwater?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 15, 2018, 12:07:13 AM
This is an aside.
I just wanted to say thanks to all who have expressed concern/interest over NTC.
She is still on puberty blockers and now female hormones as well.
The drugs make her infertile but she decided (after counselling) that it was a price worth paying.
She wants surgery as soon as possible, but as has been pointed out, that won't be feasible for about 5 years due to age limits and waiting times.
She is tall and clever and charming and funny. I'm sure the Beeries who have met her would agree with that description.
She wants to be a paleontologist. Indeed, she is determined to be a paleontologist.

I'm not sure how any of this fits into what's going on here or in the outside world, but my life is hard enough without adding to my stress by arguing about it.
I'm following with interest though and I do appreciate GB as a place of fierce and intelligent discussion.

I totally respect you and your family Musette and would not comment on your child.

I do have misgivings about Mermaids as do some parents who've come into contact with them. There's even a group of parents who've formed a self help group after disassociating themselves with Mermaids.
The Tavistock has concerns about the fast tracking encouraged by Mermaids. The Times did an article about this matter in February.
I really wish your daughter all the best.

I will come back to this issue of Mermaids and ROGD and the possibly of social contagion caused by girls hating their bodies because of the sexualisation of childhood.
I think it's linked to the but I'm tired and need to get up very early.

Thanks for posting here, Musette, I appreciate your candour.


Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: MissRosie on May 15, 2018, 12:11:27 AM
HI. A few weeks ago I wrote this blog on transphobia in feminism, with the intention of offering my perspective on some of the issues.

It was getting around 5000 hits a day when I first posted it, so needless to say, Iíve had a very wide range of critiques on it and been accused of various forms of treachery and traitorousness.

Judging by the  converstaion, Iím not expecting it to be particularly well received but I thought I would post it anyway incase anyone finds it useful or of interest.

http://rosieswayne.blogspot.fi/2018/03/unqualified-lesbian-swerves-abruptly_23.html (http://rosieswayne.blogspot.fi/2018/03/unqualified-lesbian-swerves-abruptly_23.html)
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 15, 2018, 12:13:33 AM
No. "Have you been living as a woman for two years" is objective evidence of transition. Its explicity not going to be required[/quote].

Have you seen this legislation? I know is supposed to be announced in the next few weeks but to be best of my knowledge there have been no leaks but you seem very sure?


Quote
Its not the difference between a two year wait and a shorter one. Its the difference between objective including medical evidence and pure self id.

A stat dec doesnít negate the need for evidence, just the need to supply it.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 15, 2018, 12:15:46 AM
Quote
Oh thats alright then. Lets hope every woman alone in her store presented with a stalker is aware of  those meagre future procedural protections when she makes the decision whether to risk her life or her livelihood.

Presumably, in a progressive place like Canada she would have also faced the same sort of situation if she did,or could have been perceived to have, turned down a curstimer in the grounds of sex, race of sexual identity. Would you be happy for those protections to be thrown out, in the hope of saving the business owner a bit of grief?

To get rid of discrimination laws, would have the biggest impact on women, weíre the ones most often protected by them or is therrr no baby too big to throw out with this bathwater?

Because no one is suggesting getting rid of discrimination laws except you as a strawman.

Its the fact that this person can self id legally and not be challenged on it when there isn't anything objective from her point of view to show they are actually trans and not a nefarious male. Putting her safety in jeopardy if she doesn't act on instinct and her livelihood in jeopardy if she does.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 15, 2018, 12:18:15 AM
 Iím confused, it doesnít negate the need for evidence, just the need to supply it? How can one need evidence but not need to supply evidence? I have never been through a legal process like that in my life. 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 15, 2018, 12:19:11 AM
No a stat dec doesnt negate the need for evidence. Self id negates the need for evidence. Self id alone is what is being proposed. Which means you do not need any evidence of transition other than your own self identification as a trans person.

Requiring any evidence of having lived in that gender would be objective evidence and negate the whole point of self id.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 15, 2018, 12:23:37 AM
HI. A few weeks ago I wrote this blog on transphobia in feminism, with the intention of offering my perspective on some of the issues.

It was getting around 5000 hits a day when I first posted it, so needless to say, Iíve had a very wide range of critiques on it and been accused of various forms of treachery and traitorousness.

Judging by the  converstaion, Iím not expecting it to be particularly well received but I thought I would post it anyway incase anyone finds it useful or of interest.

http://rosieswayne.blogspot.fi/2018/03/unqualified-lesbian-swerves-abruptly_23.html (http://rosieswayne.blogspot.fi/2018/03/unqualified-lesbian-swerves-abruptly_23.html)

Ahh that's where Top borrowed her adoption analogy from the other day.

I will have a read Rosie when I'm not tired. The print is weeny on this device and I can't magnify it easily.


I've flicked through it though and find your last sentence a bit silly.
Dildos are not the same as penises because they aren't attached to male bodies.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 15, 2018, 12:27:01 AM
As a kind of aside... One of the interesting experiences I had in Dublin recently was frequently sitting on the top deck of a bus. Since the current abortion referendum campaign has an awful lot of placards placed at top deck height, and since the buses have free internet, I found it quite confrontational to go from 'that's got to be a blatant lie' to working out that some of the no campaign's unpalatable statistics are only slight exaggerations. But, even knowing that there are some (small minority) of women who (in my view) seem to use abortion as an alternative to contraception, I still think it's better to allow abortion. So, having thought a lot about that issue recently, I can see the parallel of the greater good.

Iíve been knocking on doors and each one of the nonsense claims made by the Love Both campaign takes about 20 minutes to prove is false. Six or eight words on a poster can frighten people in a way that it takes so long and so much energy to reassure them out of. My face is frozen from smiling and pretending that their fears are rational and well founded.

Iíve been doing the same estate this week as I did during the equal marriage referendum, they recognise me from the last time I knocked on their doors, with my frozen smile, I just want people to leave other people alone to get on with their lives and not to demand input into what their do with their own private bodies. If feels like the same discussion about the same basic point again and again.

BTW, one of my fellow foot soldiers tells me that a medical abortion really hurts, youíd not do if you had a choice. I see being trans as being quite similar.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 15, 2018, 12:34:12 AM
HI. A few weeks ago I wrote this blog on transphobia in feminism, with the intention of offering my perspective on some of the issues.

It was getting around 5000 hits a day when I first posted it, so needless to say, Iíve had a very wide range of critiques on it and been accused of various forms of treachery and traitorousness.

Judging by the  converstaion, Iím not expecting it to be particularly well received but I thought I would post it anyway incase anyone finds it useful or of interest.

http://rosieswayne.blogspot.fi/2018/03/unqualified-lesbian-swerves-abruptly_23.html (http://rosieswayne.blogspot.fi/2018/03/unqualified-lesbian-swerves-abruptly_23.html)

Ahh that's where Top borrowed her adoption analogy from the other day.

I will have a read Rosie when I'm not tired. The print is weeny on this device and I can't magnify it easily.


I've flicked through it though and find your last sentence a bit silly.
Dildos are not the same as penises because they aren't attached to male bodies.

I skim read the end and baulked at the word "hysteria" in relation to feminist objections.

The word hysteria, of course, comes from the Greek term for uterus and misogynists through the ages thought it was a condition women suffered from because their contaminating uterus made them giddy, irrational and over-emotional. Because thats what women are, we're reliably informed.

Misogyny lives on through language and women continue to get gaslighted and discounted every time they speak their truths.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 15, 2018, 12:41:44 AM
 Again youíre attacking a strawman, because not one poster on this thread has said they have a problem with transsexuals.
 Either youíre wilfully misunderstanding people, which I doubt, or all youíre parrying and fainting is because  you really donít have any convincing arguments to bring to the table. Either way itís late and Iím tired. 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Lust for Life on May 15, 2018, 12:50:22 AM
As a kind of aside... One of the interesting experiences I had in Dublin recently was frequently sitting on the top deck of a bus. Since the current abortion referendum campaign has an awful lot of placards placed at top deck height, and since the buses have free internet, I found it quite confrontational to go from 'that's got to be a blatant lie' to working out that some of the no campaign's unpalatable statistics are only slight exaggerations. But, even knowing that there are some (small minority) of women who (in my view) seem to use abortion as an alternative to contraception, I still think it's better to allow abortion. So, having thought a lot about that issue recently, I can see the parallel of the greater good.

Iíve been knocking on doors and each one of the nonsense claims made by the Love Both campaign takes about 20 minutes to prove is false. Six or eight words on a poster can frighten people in a way that it takes so long and so much energy to reassure them out of. My face is frozen from smiling and pretending that their fears are rational and well founded.

Iíve been doing the same estate this week as I did during the equal marriage referendum, they recognise me from the last time I knocked on their doors, with my frozen smile, I just want people to leave other people alone to get on with their lives and not to demand input into what their do with their own private bodies. If feels like the same discussion about the same basic point again and again.

BTW, one of my fellow foot soldiers tells me that a medical abortion really hurts, youíd not do if you had a choice. I see being trans as being quite similar.

I have always supported the right to abortion and divorce, I don't need convincing. Both are no fun solutions to serious problems which would only be worse if these legal solutions were unavailable. The disconcerting bit was having unappealing facts shoved in my face which I first didn't believe ( the 1 in 5 one) and realising that I support the right to abortion in spite of not necessarily finding this something to clap joyously. I kind of knew that already, but hadn't thought about it in a long time.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 15, 2018, 01:08:45 AM
Ironically, the trans woman whose co-written article Top posted from the sturdy "human rights" advocacy publication above to show us we had nothing to fear, opposes abortion and IVF and is a former Tory Party candidate and Christian. So the "go to" authority on "human rights".

Remember all of those pesky right wing Christians, Top complained were filling in the trans health survey. Her fetish for dressing up as an animal for sexual purposes fortunately appears to have put the breaks on her Tory party advancement otherwise presumably she would be campaigning in the same publication for self iding as a panda.

We should all feel suitably reassured.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 15, 2018, 01:55:14 AM
Oh MissRosie you're that Rosie?  Brilliant!

I mean hi.  /affects nonchalance/
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 15, 2018, 02:38:09 AM
Ironically, the trans woman whose co-written article Top posted from the sturdy "human rights" advocacy publication above to show us we had nothing to fear, opposes abortion and IVF and is a former Tory Party candidate and Christian. So the "go to" authority on "human rights".

Remember all of those pesky right wing Christians, Top complained were filling in the trans health survey. Her fetish for dressing up as an animal for sexual purposes fortunately appears to have put the breaks on her Tory party advancement otherwise presumably she would be campaigning in the same publication for self iding as a panda.

We should all feel suitably reassured.

Iím going to pretend that we havenít reduced ourselves to commenting about what consenting adults do in the fart sack and focus of the right wing Christian angle.

Would, you like the tweets from the alt right men who go to the A Womanís Place meetings or Paddy Manningís support of TERFS or the Mums-netter inviting the other Mumsnetters to the ĎFree Speechí /British Nationalist rally at the weekend? Tonight is your lucky night because Viniece Allen, the women whoís organition you mentioned setting up a direct debit to, has a fresh line in homophobia?

Itís not that I donít have any crazy in my side, I just have considerably less.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 15, 2018, 02:42:31 AM
Ironically, the trans woman whose co-written article Top posted from the sturdy "human rights" advocacy publication above to show us we had nothing to fear, opposes abortion and IVF and is a former Tory Party candidate and Christian. So the "go to" authority on "human rights".

Remember all of those pesky right wing Christians, Top complained were filling in the trans health survey. Her fetish for dressing up as an animal for sexual purposes fortunately appears to have put the breaks on her Tory party advancement otherwise presumably she would be campaigning in the same publication for self iding as a panda.

We should all feel suitably reassured.

Iím going to pretend that we havenít reduced ourselves to commenting about what consenting adults do in the fart sack and focus of the right wing Christian angle.

Would, you like the tweets from the alt right men who go to the A Womanís Place meetings or Paddy Manningís support of TERFS or the Mums-netter inviting the other Mumsnetters to the ĎFree Speechí /British Nationalist rally at the weekend? Tonight is your lucky night because Viniece Allen, the women whoís organition you mentioned setting up a direct debit to, has a fresh line in homophobia?

Itís not that I donít have any crazy in my side, I just have considerably less.

Oh, its not just "the crazy". Its that its your own crazy.

The one that you described as someone "a tad more qualified" than me when you posted her article.

Lighten up. You are set up for your greatest GB moment ever.

Repeat after me :

"At first they came for the pandas....."
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 15, 2018, 02:50:01 AM
Because no one is suggesting getting rid of discrimination laws except you as a strawman.

Its the fact that this person can self id legally and not be challenged on it when there isn't anything objective from her point of view to show they are actually trans and not a nefarious male. Putting her safety in jeopardy if she doesn't act on instinct and her livelihood in jeopardy if she does.

Thatís persons trans statue is neither here nor there, if it had been a cis man claiming to have been refused a service because of his sex, the beautician would be in exactly the same position as she is now. Same with a gay, same with a POC. Trans people self IDing is a red herring.

You canít refuse to do someoneís nails because of a protected characteristic.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 15, 2018, 03:05:38 AM
Quote
The one that you described as someone "a tad more qualified" than me when you posted her article.

Oh, Betty, itís not all about you. In my post, after Iíd been asked to give my opinion, a post in which I didnít mention you at all,  I was saying that this woman is a tad more qualified that me.

But is she more qualified than you, is that why youíve got the miff?

Iím sorry but Iím not in a position to mock anyone for how they fuck; I just couldnít go there.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 15, 2018, 03:07:48 AM
Oh MissRosie you're that Rosie?  Brilliant!

I mean hi.  /affects nonchalance/

Yeah, like innit!
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 15, 2018, 08:15:16 AM
Well, of course someone who was born male, subscribes to a party who feel inequality is not only inevitable but desirable and is against even the most basic reproductive rights for women would be more qualified to certify whether my human rights are about to be infringed, than I am.

This is one of the experts you said earlier that it made more sense for the Government to consult rather than "women" on this issue. (Speechmarks were yours)

Well, that puts that one in perspective.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Sorted. on May 15, 2018, 08:47:05 AM
What about waxing balls instead of doing nails.. say youíre a Muslim woman (or actually any woman)who doesnít want to touch someoneís balls.  What about her dignity?  Are her feels less important and worth trashing a business over?  Does anybody know if this business is legally in the wrong? (Itís canada). Surely not!?

This person wasnít denied services..just explained to over the phone that the woman on duty that day would be unable to perform them. ..then the harassment begins..


http://windsorstar.com/news/local-news/transgender-woman-files-human-rights-complaint-against-windsor-spa
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 15, 2018, 10:35:09 AM
A cis man or woman canít be refused service because of their sex, Iíd like to take issue with that. Have you never walked past a shop with a sign that says gentlemanĎs barbers? I went into one of these a few years ago to get my hair shaved and was refused on the grounds that I am not a man. Iím no hairdressing expert, but Iím pretty sure that hair is the same whether itís on a man or a woman.
 And less crazy on your side top? Are you sure, or do you just stick to those bits of the Internet that are nice and polite?
 Bugger, I was trying to find a link that listed lots of other links to TRAs telling women to die in a fire, suck my lady Dick, Iíd like to punch a terf in the face, and enjoy your erasure, and stuff like that but I canít find it, unfortunately. Anyway you donít have to click too many times to find examples.
 I think Top, that youíll find that there are a few right-wing Conservatives sticking their nose in on the side of the feminists but we know theyíre doing that for their own agenda, where as the TRAs are just a bunch of misogynists, and that *is* their agenda. They have just subjugated misogyny to a lesser form of hatred than this imaginary transphobia we all keep perpetrating.       
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 15, 2018, 10:36:30 AM
Equalities laws are Equalities laws, they are not there to force companies to serve people they would have served anyway. No one can discriminate on the grounds of a protected characteristic, any protected characteristic.

A baker has to bake a gay cake
A b&b owner has to provide bed and breakfast to sodomites
A dentist has to fix teeth, even if they are in the mouth of a menstruating woman.
A Registrar has to marry the gays to each other.

In all of those cases, the person refusing service, held genuine religious objections. The court decided that their right to be religious stopped at the point when they opened their doors to the public.

Equalities laws have to apply to all of us, by their very nature there are to force companies and individuals to provide goods and services to people they wouldnít otherwise serve. 

(On a side note, laws and conventions are quite different. When I lived in east London and often availed of the services of the Muslim hair removal squad, I once saw a trans women going in to get waxed but they asked my butch gf to wait outside.)
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 15, 2018, 10:39:37 AM
Quote
I think Top, that youíll find that there are a few right-wing Conservatives sticking their nose in on the side of the feminists but we know theyíre doing that for their own agenda, where as the TRAs are just a bunch of misogynists, and that *is* their agenda.

Who, exactly are the TRAs?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 15, 2018, 12:24:35 PM
Quote
I think Top, that youíll find that there are a few right-wing Conservatives sticking their nose in on the side of the feminists but we know theyíre doing that for their own agenda, where as the TRAs are just a bunch of misogynists, and that *is* their agenda.

Who, exactly are the TRAs?
Well we could start with your best mate Paris Lees. Paris who loves being cat called and seen as a piece of meat Lees, who was imprisoned for a violent crime that she described as thrilling, and lichens womensí fear of male violence to a fear of escalators. An upstanding paragon of womanhood and a worthy advocate for womensí rights wouldnít you agree? 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 15, 2018, 01:04:42 PM
 The thing is what you are doing Top, is on one hand saying that transwomensí fear of male violence is perfectly legitimate, while on the other hand dismissing womensí fear of male violence as irrational. Changing the meaning of peoples words and arguing a bunch of strawman is not helpful. Is it any wonder some people on here have got their backs up?
 It would be helpful if we could establish a definition of trans. Are we talking about transsexuals and people with a diagnosis of GD, or are we talking about the Stonewall definition of the trans umbrella which basically means anyone who feels like saying they are trans on any given day?
 I, and other posters on here have said that we have no issue with transsexuals and people who have a diagnosis of GD. We already have a GRA that deals with that. It might be cumbersome but that is an issue to be addressed in itself. I canít see how bringing in a system of self ID that affectively obliterates the meaning of being a woman and the protections conferred by that would help anybody, including transsexual women.
Please could you explain to me without telling me that naughty men wouldnít do that, or using the proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim argument, which we have already seen not working or not being used because  people are afraid to use it,  how self ID can and will be made so that it protects the safety of women from predatory men?
       
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 15, 2018, 04:57:30 PM
Quote
Well we could start with your best mate Paris Lees. Paris who loves being cat called and seen as a piece of meat Lees, who was imprisoned for a violent crime that she described as thrilling, and lichens womensí fear of male violence to a fear of escalators. An upstanding paragon of womanhood and a worthy advocate for womensí rights wouldnít you agree? 

Shall we do a little fact checking here?

1. Paris isnít my best mate.

2. Hereís what Paris had to say about cat calling in context. I donít totally agree with her but I donít agree with any form of slut shaming either. Paris is a young heterosexual woman who enjoys the attention of young heterosexual men. I unapologetically enjoy sexual attention from those Iím attracted to while, at the same time, understanding that it can be oppressive in another context.
https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/zn7b79/enjoying-catcalls-paris-lees-column (https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/zn7b79/enjoying-catcalls-paris-lees-column)

3. Paris Lees committed an awful crime when she was 16 and went to prison for it. I donít think that young offenders should be punished or their crimes for the rest of their lives. Most criminals find their criminal activities Ďthrillingí, mostly, thatís the point. Very few are honest enough to own that.

4. Hereís the quote in full. ďI'm genuinely sorry if you have concerns about the idea that trans rights could place you in danger. There's absolutely no evidence for this but I appreciate the fear is real. Some people are scared of escalators. It's something you're going to have to work on and I wish you wellĒ

5. I donít really want to judge Paris, sheís done her time, then went to uni and is now living a better life. Very few you people do get out of the cycle of offending and go on to live successful lives, particularly not working class women, so fair play to her.

6. I donít know if any of us are paragons of womanhood, Iím not sure we need to be. Iím not sure if anyone of us are worthy advocates of womenís rights either, we are all a product of the patriarchy and have internalised some aspects of its beliefs. Itís a sad fact that, as women, we police the behaviour of other women and do the patriarchyís work for it.

Putting Paris aside for a moment, I got the feeling that you were referring to a group of people, not just one. Is there a TRA club or society or lobby group or is it just individual trans people who speak in favour of trans people, some of whom you donít like?

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 15, 2018, 05:03:07 PM
Quote
...how self ID can and will be made so that it protects the safety of women from predatory men?


It canít. The last 2000 years of written law havenít protected women from predatory men, some shillyshalling around with trans people getting their birth certs changed, isnít going to help either.

What Iíve actually said is that self ID hasnít been a problem in the countries that have adopted it and that experience can be extrapolated to the U.K. ie the likely outcome is that it wonít be a problem here either.

To be clear, Ďno a problemí doesnít mean that no individual could ever take advantage of the law. Here in Ireland, two straight men married each other to sidestep inheritance laws, in just the way that anti equal marriage campaigners said they would. However, thatís Ďnot a problemí because it was two blokes taking advantage of a system which, in the grand scheme of things is working well and has brought happiness and equality to many.

Last year, a gay man whoíd adopted a child murdered her. He had been through all of the extensive checks needed to adopt, has passed them all was given legal responsibility for that child. Just like the bigots said of all of us, he wasnít able to parent safely. Gay adoption isnít a problem, he was.

A Saudi women will probably have a car crash soon, to some of the men who  think that women shouldnít be allowed out on their own, it will, confirm their view that women shouldnít be allowed to drive. They will be wrong.

Some woman, somewhere might use abortion as a form of birth control, just like the anti repeal and constantly shouting at me. Some woman might even have a late term abortion for a reason I wouldnít agree with. Thatís not a problem and her actions shouldnít influence, in anyway, the majorityís right to safe and legal abortion.

A progressive society has this basic premise that were all allowed to behave how we want to behave, until we break the law. Weíre not stopped in our own personal pursuit of happiness, unless we do something wrong.



Quote
Are we talking about transsexuals and people with a diagnosis of GD, or are we talking about the Stonewall definition of the trans umbrella which basically means anyone who feels like saying they are trans on any given day?

In this context, when I talk about trans people, Iím talking about those who would want a GRC, which, obviously, doesnít apply to many people under the Stonewall umbrella. Stonewall donít only campaign for the proposed amendments to the GRA, they have a much wider remit. If your asking if I think that cross dressers etc. should be afforded respect and dignity, of course I do. If youíre asking if I care about peeing next to them, not a bit. If your asking if I think that they will be impacted by the changes to the GRA, I canít see why, they arenít women, they donít think of themselves as women, why would they go to the trouble of obtaining a GRC? How would it benefit them? If someone was Brian from Monday to Friday, going about his manly business and wanted to be Briannah at the weekend, why would he want to flag that up to his employer?

Moving away from trans people for a moment (I know!), in the U.K. gay people have, more or less, parity in the law with straight people but there are still many places where two men canít walk down the street holding hand. Giving someone legal equality doesnít give them social equality. The only people who will want to obtain a GRC are those who canít manage without one.

Iím not going to pretend that I understand or feel any empathy towards all of the rainbow nation of different gender identities. Iím a fifty year old dyke, of course Iím as confused as everybody else. However, I understand that affording rights only to those that I Ďgetí is pointless. People I feel empathy towards donít need rights, my empathy means that Iíll treat them reasonably, itís the people who make me roll my eyes who need legal protection.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: MissRosie on May 15, 2018, 05:17:57 PM
Top you are making some incredibly good points and this feels like a really valuable and nuanced discussion.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 15, 2018, 05:19:42 PM
Been at work all day.

Have we had the answer to the compulsory ball waxing yet?

Canadaís turning out to be a great example of self Id being unproblematic. Iím sure a cursory dig around the other quoted jurisdictions will prove equally illuminating.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 15, 2018, 05:48:52 PM
Quote
Well we could start with your best mate Paris Lees. Paris who loves being cat called and seen as a piece of meat Lees, who was imprisoned for a violent crime that she described as thrilling, and lichens womensí fear of male violence to a fear of escalators. An upstanding paragon of womanhood and a worthy advocate for womensí rights wouldnít you agree?

Shall we do a little fact checking here?

1. Paris isnít my best mate.

2. Hereís what Paris had to say about cat calling in context. I donít totally agree with her but I donít agree with any form of slut shaming either. Paris is a young heterosexual woman who enjoys the attention of young heterosexual men. I unapologetically enjoy sexual attention from those Iím attracted to while, at the same time, understanding that it can be oppressive in another context.
https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/zn7b79/enjoying-catcalls-paris-lees-column (https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/zn7b79/enjoying-catcalls-paris-lees-column)

3. Paris Lees committed an awful crime when she was 16 and went to prison for it. I donít think that young offenders should be punished or their crimes for the rest of their lives. Most criminals find their criminal activities Ďthrillingí, mostly, thatís the point. Very few are honest enough to own that.

4. Hereís the quote in full. ďI'm genuinely sorry if you have concerns about the idea that trans rights could place you in danger. There's absolutely no evidence for this but I appreciate the fear is real. Some people are scared of escalators. It's something you're going to have to work on and I wish you wellĒ

5. I donít really want to judge Paris, sheís done her time, then went to uni and is now living a better life. Very few you people do get out of the cycle of offending and go on to live successful lives, particularly not working class women, so fair play to her.

6. I donít know if any of us are paragons of womanhood, Iím not sure we need to be. Iím not sure if anyone of us are worthy advocates of womenís rights either, we are all a product of the patriarchy and have internalised some aspects of its beliefs. Itís a sad fact that, as women, we police the behaviour of other women and do the patriarchyís work for it.

Putting Paris aside for a moment, I got the feeling that you were referring to a group of people, not just one. Is there a TRA club or society or lobby group or is it just individual trans people who speak in favour of trans people, some of whom you donít like?



 Oh come onÖ  The first looks like the stuff of male masturbatory fantasy and the second is essentially, Iím sorry that the women are upset, but shut up bitches, and get over it. Paris Lees is only interested in Paris Lees passing and looking fabulous, and everybody saying, oh look what a fabulous woman Paris Lees looks like.  Itís quite hard to take such a narcissist seriously.
 I could probably spend all evening posting links of shit that these idiots have said and done but youíre the only one that seems to be behind the curve on this one, so maybe you should do some clicky clicky, plus I havenít got time to explain what misogyny is and how it relates to all this, because you have clearly developed a blindspot on this particular subject.  Youíve already made excuses on this thread for men donning masks and harassing and intimidating women. Says it all really.
     
 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 15, 2018, 06:40:01 PM
 The thing is Top, the gay cake or a woman discreetly menstruating in the dentist chair does not actually have any impact on anybody elseís life, nobody ever caught gay from making a cake or caught period from sticking a latex gloved finger into someoneís mouth. A law that allows any man to reclassify himself as a woman, for any reason he chooses, has a very significant impact on other peoplesí lives.  Shit happens and itíll all be fine is not really much of a reassurance when what you are seeking to do is to normalise the presence of men in womensí single sex spaces, and the likelihood of shit happening will increase, because when has men having increased access to women ever decreased the amount of violence, or even made it stay the same? You do understand this donít you? The thing is about personal freedom, youíre perfectly within your rights to swing your fist, until the point where it collides with my face. You do understand this as well, right? Itís about balancing the rights of women and girls to safety and privacy, and against the backdrop of a society that doesnít rank the incredibly high levels of violence and abuse against women as a priority, so is already bloody hard, against the rights and safety of an incredibly small minority of the population.  I donít know how to do this, I do not have the answer, but what I would like is a debate where we can actually discuss the issues as they are without all the sophistry and throwing up strawman, and  people hysterically screaming transphobia and terf at anyone who disagrees with them.
 The other thing that troubles me about this is that it is being framed as an argument between minorities. Women are not a minority, there are more women in the world than men.  Itís a clever piece of propaganda which nobody would really think to question because of the status of women in our society and it needs calling out.

 Edited to tidy up and make myself a bit clearer. Was cooking tea at the same time as writing this post.   
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 15, 2018, 07:21:14 PM

 Oh come onÖ  The first looks like the stuff of male masturbatory fantasy and the second is essentially, Iím sorry that the women are upset, but shut up bitches, and get over it. Paris Lees is only interested in Paris Lees passing and looking fabulous, and everybody saying, oh look what a fabulous woman Paris Lees looks like.  Itís quite hard to take such a narcissist seriously.
 I could probably spend all evening posting links of shit that these idiots have said and done but youíre the only one that seems to be behind the curve on this one, so maybe you should do some clicky clicky, plus I havenít got time to explain what misogyny is and how it relates to all this, because you have clearly developed a blindspot on this particular subject.  Youíve already made excuses on this thread for men donning masks and harassing and intimidating women. Says it all really.

I think that you really should put a little time into researching what misogyny is, with particular reference into slut shaming other women and accusing them of being narcissists. Youíre the on,y person I can see hating women.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 15, 2018, 07:41:47 PM
 You see that comment would be perfectly valid if Paris Lees was actually a woman. Itís perfectly obvious to any woman reading it that what she says and how she says it is not coming from a person who has been socialised as female. Yeah go right ahead and call me transphobic if you like, but I donít think I have ever heard a woman speak like that about herself.
 Thing is, the kind of misogyny I know and have experience throughout my life is different to the misogyny that Paris Lees has learnt. The misogyny Paris Lees has learned is external, something that is felt inside but aimed at someone else, then gets pushed outward. The misogyny I have learnt is inside and itís about me, itís an insidious and deep rooted hatred of myself because of my sex,  and occasionally, probably more than occasionally, it becomes externalised, but at the same time, and pretty much at all times,itís getting fed back to me and it is being reinforced. Do you understand? As women we are taught from the year dot to think of ourselves in a certain way, to speak about ourselves in a certain way, while simultaneously holding the knowledge that itís all actually bullshit. We donít tend to speak ourselves like we are tasty little offerings in the butchers window, because on some level we know that we are probably seen as just that. We also know what happens to women who do that, and on the occasions where we might feel a bit slutty and up for it, we donít put it on show or we know what weíll get, and it will be our fault.   Iím sorry this is slightly confused. Iím trying to explain myself and get my thoughts in order at the same time.     
Iím not slut shaming her in any way, Nice try though  she can fuck as many hot studs as she can handle for I care,  Iím simply pointing out the fact that it reads like a titillating caption on porn hub. If she is a shining example to girls and young women expect the blokes will be polishing up their cocks and practising their best strangleholds.

 Edited to try and convey my thoughts a bit more.       
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Lyco on May 15, 2018, 07:57:53 PM
Slanty, even a cursory clicky clicky will find plenty of examples of women who enjoy cat calls and wolf whistles. A bit more clicky clicky and youíll find plenty of women online talking in exactly the way she is. Itís not my thing but but to make the argument that Paris Lees wouldnít say this stuff if she had been socialised as a woman just isnít true.

Quote
... if Paris Lees was actually a woman

i know youíre using lots of words but hereís the crux of your argument. You donít think sheís a woman. You donít think transwomen are women.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 15, 2018, 08:08:50 PM
The thing is top, the gay cake or a woman discreetly menstruating in the dentist chair does not actually have any impact on anybody elseís life, nobody ever caught gay from making a cake or caught period from sticking a latex gloved finger into someoneís mouth


Of course, none of those things are damaging but people do have sincerely held religious beliefs. The Muslim waxer isnít going to grow a set of testes from waxing the balls of a trans woman but she is compromising her religious beliefs, just like the other people Iíve mentioned.

The law has decided that religion is a private matter and equalities are a public matter. If a business or individual doesnít want to serve the whole community, it canít serve any of the community.


Quote
A law that allows any man to reclassify himself as a woman, for any reason he chooses, has a very significant impact on other peoplesí lives. 

In what way? What impact has the GRA had on you?

Quote
You do understand this donít you? The thing is about personal freedom, youíre perfectly within your rights to swing your fist, until the point where it collides with my face. You do understand this, right? Itís about balancing the rights of women and girls to safety and privacy, and against the backdrop of a society that doesnít really rank the incredibly high levels of violence and abuse against women a priority, against the rights and safety of an incredibly small minority of the population. 

No thatís not how it works, itís not alright to oppress a minority because they are small in number. Itís not alright to oppress a minority for an action that a member of another group might take. Itís not alright to curtail a personal freedom on the off chance that someone might take advantage.

Quote
I donít know how to do this, I do not have the answer, but what I would like is a debate where we can actually discuss the issues as they are without people hysterically screaming transphobia and terf at anyone who disagrees with them.

Then itís probably best to drop the transphobia or speak out against it. Maybe you could cut out thing like saying Paris Lees isnít an Ďactual womaní. When it takes the mother of a trans child to speak out against suggestions that her child should be denied internationally recommended best practice medical treatment, some people arenít speaking out soon enough.


 
Quote
The other thing that troubles me about this is that it is being framed as an argument between minorities. Women are not a minority, there are more women in the world than men.  Itís a clever piece of propaganda which nobody would really think to question because of the status of women in our society and it needs calling out.

Iím not framing women as a minority or even a vulnerable group. I think thatís a fairly damaging bit of gameplay. I acknowledge that male violence exists but I think that framing women as defenceless and ever vulnerable to it, is damaging. To see women parroting the idea that they need to be kept away from men (or trans women) for their own protection, is dodgy. I think that the fear that some try and invoke in other women damages and limits the life of women more than actual violence. Itís the opposite of this:

ďA man might kill me one day but he won't kill my every day.Ē

Incidentally, I find reducing women to a Ďbiological classí a bit dodgy too. I saw women being referred to as Ďegg bearersí on a Ďfeministí blog recently and it made my toes curl. Iíd most certainly hold the coat of any woman who wanted to piss in the drink of a man saying that.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 15, 2018, 08:27:22 PM
You see that comment would be perfectly valid if Paris Lees was actually a woman. Itís perfectly obvious to any woman reading it that what she says and how she says it is not coming from a person who has been socialised as female. Yeah go right ahead and call me transphobic if you like, but I donít think I have ever heard a woman speak like that about herself. Iím not slut shaming her in any way, she can fuck as many hot studs as she can handle for I care,  Iím simply pointing out the fact that it reads like a titillating caption on porn hub. If she is a shining example to girls and young women expect the blokes will be polishing up their cocks and practising their best strangleholds.     

Some women are very sex positive. Iím CIS/abfab/whatever and I had sex with five different women one night. Iíve been to sex parties, SM parties, fucked in public, fucked countless other people in public, been filmed and written about it extensively, you might even find some of it still in the dungeon section. To be honest, I didnít find Paris very outrageous, but weíre all different and thatís cool but donít tell me that someone isnít a woman because sheís like me. Itís probably fair to note that I was raised Catholic and we tend to have a fairly dramatic fall from grace.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 15, 2018, 08:42:19 PM
 Well, Paris Lees is not a woman. Test any cell in her body apart from haemoglobin and you will find this to be definitely the case. That is deflection though because it wasnít my point and you know that.
 These women on the Internet who like catcalling, I wonder who their disclosures are for the benefit of? Men, by any chance? Or could it be to do with internalised misogyny? Here we go you see, misogyny.

 Top, youíre twisting my words again. I wasnít talking about the GRA, as well you know, I was talking about the proposed move to self declaration. If you really donít understand why that would have an affect on mine and other womenís life then I suggest you go away and do some thinking, then come back and join the debate. Alternatively you could read through this entire thread again and take note of what me and other women have said.
 The thing is about personal freedom, is that each protected group has to have their rights and protections weighed up against all the others. I think we can safely say that if self ID becomes a thing then there will be some men who will choose to take advantage of it for naughty reasons. If you have a free for all, which is essentially what it is, will make single sex spaces more dangerous for 51% of the population, and the small fraction of the population who are transsexual women as well. Eventually there will be no point to sex segregated spaces and they will be abolished altogether. Women fought for a long time to get those spaces, and they were granted because there was, and there still is a need for them. Rape and sexual assault statistics donít lie, although you can try arguing against them if you like.
 Anyway Iím bored of constantly repeating this shit to you and my dog needs to be fed.               
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Lyco on May 15, 2018, 09:03:45 PM
Listen up!

Iíve just had an IM. Probably from a sock puppet, not from a poster I know and I wonít go into too much detail but the general gist, and I shit you not, was Ďhow do you feel about your Ďwifeísí history?í

I. Canít. Even.

(If you really want to know, Iíve made her shave her head and she now lives in the shed, the slut)
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 15, 2018, 09:10:15 PM
Would someone like to explain why they think trans women are women?



Also I'd like to return to who the TRAs are.
Top mentioned Roz Kavannagh, I'd say she was a trans activist, she paid for Tanis Wood aka She Wolf's legal costs after Wolf was found guilty of common battery of the 60 year old woman at Speakers Corner last September.

I see that group of masked individuals including Tara who turn up at Woman's Place meetings in masks as TRAs. They are part of the Class War group and others who seem to come from New Cross and some of whom are at Goldsmiths University.

Then there's another bunch of people on twitter who seem organised and focus on piling on other online people they disagree with.
There's the rather loony person at Lib Dem LGBTQI. They aren't completely affiliated with the Lib Dems apparently because someone complained about harassment to the Lib Dens and they distanced themselves. I think one of them is Sarah Brown or Sarah Brown's partner. They spend a lot of time on twitter.

Then there's the notorious Lily Madigan who must have most trans people hanging their heads in shame. Her friend Andreas Drie something or other was thrown out of the party after investigation and if I recall has some kind of public decency conviction.
There is a trans DJ in Ibiza who spends hours trolling people who sends very threatening tweets.

Then there is Paris Lees who seems to be the acceptable face of trans and the go to TV personality. Munroe Bergdorf who is a close second though her homophobic tweets have set her back somewhat.

Oh and Shon Faye who writes. A lot. Her claim to fame is saying 'enjoy your erasure, women'. She is hosting the Women's Festival weekend for Amnesty. I've cancelled my subscription to Amnesty as a result of that quote. I can't bear the gloating in the remark.

Many of those people are just online idiots but they combine to have an overall effect of silencing debate.
Behind them are groups like the ones listed in the parliamentary committee document who run organisations. I'd call them institutional trans activists. They are funded in part by lottery money and other bodies.

Gender reassignment surgery clinics and research seem to be funded by Jennifer Pritzker, a trans woman billionaire whose family helped Obama run for President. Jennifer has funded trans acceptance in the US military and more than 40 clinics in America.
There's big money in transing people.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 15, 2018, 09:15:42 PM
Listen up!

Iíve just had an IM. Probably from a sock puppet, not from a poster I know and I wonít go into too much detail but the general gist, and I shit you not, was Ďhow do you feel about your Ďwifeísí history?í

I. Canít. Even.

(If you really want to know, Iíve made her shave her head and she now lives in the shed, the slut)

Obviously that is horrible and out of order.


BTW I am not suggesting it WAS Out of Order who used to be here on gb.

There is no need for this debate to be personal... Even though some of us are sharing real life experiences or know one another.
This is IMPORTANT. It concerns changes in the law that will change the definition of woman.
That has implications which we need to consider.

I fucking HATE sockpuppetry. Its cowardly.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Sorted. on May 15, 2018, 09:18:13 PM
Listen up!

Iíve just had an IM. Probably from a sock puppet, not from a poster I know and I wonít go into too much detail but the general gist, and I shit you not, was Ďhow do you feel about your Ďwifeísí history?í

I. Canít. Even.

(If you really want to know, Iíve made her shave her head and she now lives in the shed, the slut)

Ew. Creepy as.

Not nice at all. Have a word with yourself whoever you are.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 15, 2018, 09:22:09 PM
Quote
Well, Paris Lees is not a woman. Test any cell in her body apart from haemoglobin and you will find this to be definitely the case. That is deflection though because it wasnít my point and you know that.

So here you say that Paris is not a woman because biology.
 

Quote
Top, youíre twisting my words again. I wasnít talking about the GRA, as well you know, I was talking about the proposed move to self declaration.

And here, after Iíd asked what problems youíve encountered with the GRA , youíve implied that you have no problem and that Ďself idí is your issue.

Yeah?

So if you think that trans women arenít women, you must think that the doctors signing the GRC application forms are wrong. So why are you placing any faith in them?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 15, 2018, 09:24:51 PM
Listen up!

Iíve just had an IM. Probably from a sock puppet, not from a poster I know and I wonít go into too much detail but the general gist, and I shit you not, was Ďhow do you feel about your Ďwifeísí history?í

I. Canít. Even.

(If you really want to know, Iíve made her shave her head and she now lives in the shed, the slut)

Obviously that is horrible and out of order.


BTW I am not suggesting it WAS Out of Order who used to be here on gb.


Creepy IMs and sock puppets are the pits.

But the ďI didnít mean it was OOOĒ slip was classic, Blythe. I spat my tea out.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 15, 2018, 09:25:22 PM
Listen up!

Iíve just had an IM. Probably from a sock puppet, not from a poster I know and I wonít go into too much detail but the general gist, and I shit you not, was Ďhow do you feel about your Ďwifeísí history?í

I. Canít. Even.

(If you really want to know, Iíve made her shave her head and she now lives in the shed, the slut)

Ew. Creepy as.

Not nice at all. Have a word with yourself whoever you are.

I took it to be a joke, especially with the inverted commas around Ďwifeí.

If whoever sent it was joking I did take it in that spirit and found it funny.

However, if you werenít joking, itís even funnier.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Sorted. on May 15, 2018, 09:29:30 PM
Oh  gosh!  I didn't even notice the inverted commas. 

How very 90s
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Lyco on May 15, 2018, 09:29:45 PM
*shouts from the window*

GET BACK IN THE SHED. YOU TOLD ME I WAS THE ONLY ONE!!
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Sorted. on May 15, 2018, 09:30:36 PM
Oh  gosh!  I didn't even notice the inverted commas. 

How very 90s

Sorry '90s'
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 15, 2018, 09:42:18 PM
Would someone like to explain why they think trans women are women?
I wasn't being sceptical when I asked Lyco this earlier. I just meant there are lots of different cakes on this and I find some easier to get my head round than others.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: hellohowareyoutoday on May 15, 2018, 09:53:26 PM
I saved this picture to my computer a few years ago. While it is a bit SJW-ish in a way I am skeptical of, I like the sentiment.

(http://i63.tinypic.com/bjd0n6.jpg)

Transcript if you need it:

"Respect girls who are virgins, respect girls who suck 8 dicks at a time, respect girls who don't like dick, respect girls who have dicks"
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 15, 2018, 09:55:46 PM
Quote
Well, Paris Lees is not a woman. Test any cell in her body apart from haemoglobin and you will find this to be definitely the case. That is deflection though because it wasnít my point and you know that.

So here you say that Paris is not a woman because biology.
 

Quote
Top, youíre twisting my words again. I wasnít talking about the GRA, as well you know, I was talking about the proposed move to self declaration.

And here, after Iíd asked what problems youíve encountered with the GRA , youíve implied that you have no problem and that Ďself idí is your issue.

Yeah?

So if you think that trans women arenít women, you must think that the doctors signing the GRC application forms are wrong. So why are you placing any faith in them?
Firstly, off topic, but whoever is sending personal messages please grow the fuck up? I thought we were all adults here.
 No Top, she is not a woman, she is a transwoman, and yes, because of biology.  I am quite happy to speak to her, refer to her and treat her as a woman, but biologically she is not a woman, she is a man. My medication must be working a bit too well because I canít enter into that delusion.  As for the rest of your post, Iím not quite sure what youíre getting at to be honest. I think I have made myself very clear.   
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 15, 2018, 09:56:14 PM
Would someone like to explain why they think trans women are women
?

They say so. Iíve met lots of trans people and they seem creditable to me. Iíve dated a few trans men and they all seemed creditable as well. One of my dearest friends in a trans man. Heís a bloke to his fingertips.

Iím a feminist, I believe that thereís lots of ways of being a woman, I also donít think itís a expiedent to judge or categorise women, Iím not sure how often Iíd make the standard. As a woman I think that thereís more to me than chromosomes. If I accepted that gender was a force entirely from outside, Iíd have to accept that I was a product of the patriarchy and Iím not reducing myself to that.

My body is (very attractive) meat. The part of me thatís me, doesnít reside in my ovaries or my womb, itís in my unsexed head.

I canít prove Iím queer. I canít get out any bit of me and show to to straight people. They have to take my word for it. Who am I to deny an identity to another woman? Why would I want to, what would be the point in policing what Ďwomaní is? Can that policing ever be to my advantage?

If we want to police where do we start? Is a child who displays gender dysphoria from toddlerhood, has parents who accept that identity and seek treatment, end up being more Ďwomaní because of her early exposure to female socialisation? Is the child in the same situation, convinced that sheís a girl, become less of a woman because her parents were less enlightened or just poorer?



Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 15, 2018, 10:02:36 PM
Firstly, off topic, but whoever is sending personal messages please grow the fuck up? I thought we were all adults here.
 No Top, she is not a woman, she is a transwoman, and yes, because of biology.  I am quite happy to speak to her, refer to her and treat her as a woman, but biologically she is not a woman, she is a man. My medication must be working a bit too well because I canít enter into that delusion.  As for the rest of your post, Iím not quite sure what youíre getting at to be honest. I think I have made myself very clear.   

Youíre being perfectly clear, youíve just got a big logic fallacy in there.

Youíre saying that trans women arenít women, that means that you think that the doctors who sign off on trans womenís GRCs are wrong but your happy with the current system because doctors sign it off.

Either the doctors are wrong or they are not wrong. You need to pick a side.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 15, 2018, 10:13:20 PM
Firstly, off topic, but whoever is sending personal messages please grow the fuck up? I thought we were all adults here.
 No Top, she is not a woman, she is a transwoman, and yes, because of biology.  I am quite happy to speak to her, refer to her and treat her as a woman, but biologically she is not a woman, she is a man. My medication must be working a bit too well because I canít enter into that delusion.  As for the rest of your post, Iím not quite sure what youíre getting at to be honest. I think I have made myself very clear.   

Youíre being perfectly clear, youíve just got a big logic fallacy in there.

Youíre saying that trans women arenít women, that means that you think that the doctors who sign off on trans womenís GRCs are wrong but your happy with the current system because doctors sign it off.

Either the doctors are wrong or they are not wrong. You need to pick a side.
Do I? Do I really have to pick aside? Would that be useful for anybody?
 No top, I do not believe that transwomen are women, I believe that they are transwomen. I can hold this knowledge to be true while not treating or behaving differently towards them. If what youíre trying to do is winkle out some kind of prejudice on my part then I suggest you go and find some other entertainment. And for fuckĎs sake, I donít know better than Doctors because Iím not one. If they say itís fine to grant somebody a GRC then I will believe them. I donít know why this is important or even why it matters.
 Maybe you can discuss the matter in hand, rather than needling me for some reason.     
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: hellohowareyoutoday on May 15, 2018, 10:15:17 PM
I accept that trans women are women because I think our current understanding of science and the human experience does not even begin to capture the complexity of these matters. I think almost anything is possible inside and outside the womb. Evolution has proved that weird and wacky things happen all the time, and species are the way they are because of a long line of mistakes in genetic coding.  Transwomen do have penises sometimes, but to deny them a womanhood that is an intrinsic part of them, is to reduce people's identities to their genitals, and that does an injustice to both cis and trans people. My identity as a woman is almost solely wrapped up in an essence that is not visible, similar to how a cat born without a meow or whiskers or fluffy fur could still be considered a cat, even though those are some tell-tale signs of being a cat.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: two monkeys on May 15, 2018, 10:35:45 PM
I accept that trans women are women because I think our current understanding of science and the human experience does not even begin to capture the complexity of these matters. I think almost anything is possible inside and outside the womb. Evolution has proved that weird and wacky things happen all the time, and species are the way they are because of a long line of mistakes in genetic coding.  Transwomen do have penises sometimes, but to deny them a womanhood that is an intrinsic part of them, is to reduce people's identities to their genitals, and that does an injustice to both cis and trans people. My identity as a woman is almost solely wrapped up in an essence that is not visible, similar to how a cat born without a meow or whiskers or fluffy fur could still be considered a cat, even though those are some tell-tale signs of being a cat.

So your beliefs are based on the unknown rather than the known? That's an act of faith.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 15, 2018, 10:35:56 PM
Quote
Top mentioned Roz Kavannagh, I'd say she was a trans activist, she paid for Tanis Wood aka She Wolf's legal costs after Wolf was found guilty of common battery of the 60 year old woman at Speakers Corner last September.

I canít find any creditable information about the legal cost, except for an article in the DM, not an overly trans friendly publication, reporting that ĎMs Wood, laughed at the fine and said she paid it off at £5 per weekí.

I also know that Roz isnít what youíd call a woman of means.

However, Iím going to throw her in as a TRA.

Quote
I see that group of masked individuals including Tara who turn up at Woman's Place meetings in masks as TRAs. They are part of the Class War group and others who seem to come from New Cross and some of whom are at Goldsmiths University.

They all looked a bit rent a mob to me but, either way, letís say there were 30 of them, would you be happy with 30?

Quote
Then there's another bunch of people on twitter who seem organised and focus on piling on other online people they disagree with.

Iíve checked Rozís twitter hearts, as theyíre her gang and the most sheís ever had is 311, she canít like her own tweets, so I wonít add her in again.

Running total 342

Quote
There's the rather loony person at Lib Dem LGBTQI. They aren't completely affiliated with the Lib Dems apparently because someone complained about harassment to the Lib Dens and they distanced themselves. I think one of them is Sarah Brown or Sarah Brown's partner. They spend a lot of time on twitter.

Letís say itís both of them!

Running total: 344

Quote
Then there's the notorious Lily Madigan who must have most trans people hanging their heads in shame. Her friend Andreas Drie something or other was thrown out of the party after investigation and if I recall has some kind of public decency conviction.

Public decency conviction, you know thatís usually peeing in the road, right? Still, there both in:

Running total: 346

Quote
There is a trans DJ in Ibiza who spends hours trolling people who sends very threatening tweets.

Iíll add that person, twice if theyíve got a lot of time of their hands

Running total 348

Quote
Then there is Paris Lees who seems to be the acceptable face of trans and the go to TV personality. Munroe Bergdorf who is a close second though her homophobic tweets have set her back somewhat.
Weíll have both of those

Running total: 350

Quote
Oh and Shon Faye who writes. A lot. Her claim to fame is saying 'enjoy your erasure, women'. She is hosting the Women's Festival weekend for Amnesty. I've cancelled my subscription to Amnesty as a result of that quote. I can't bear the gloating in the remark..lll
Thatís not the full quote or in context but, nevertheless, Iím sure sheís all over the trans gender rights.

Running total 351 (Itís going to mess with my analyst if any of these folks hearted Rozís tweet) 

Quote
Many of those people are just j idiots but they combine to have an overall effect of silencing debate.

Iíve two issues with this statement, firstly youíre typing a lot for a silenced person and I think some of them are very bright indeed.

Quote
Behind them are groups like the ones listed in the parliamentary committee document who run organisations. I'd call them institutional trans activists. They are funded in part by lottery money and other bodies.
We know that charities and support groups run on very tight staffing levels but shall we say 500 and assume that none of them hearted Rozís tweet, despite being in the same gang?

So, weíve got 851 TRAs, maybe?

I read quite often that these TRAs are Ďsilencing womení, women make up 51% of the population, explain the logistic to me?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 15, 2018, 10:40:06 PM
So your beliefs are based on the unknown rather than the known? That's an act of faith.

Soís your sexuality. Itís a protected characteristic that affords you some legal benefits, you could be pretending.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: hellohowareyoutoday on May 15, 2018, 10:41:24 PM
I accept that trans women are women because I think our current understanding of science and the human experience does not even begin to capture the complexity of these matters. I think almost anything is possible inside and outside the womb. Evolution has proved that weird and wacky things happen all the time, and species are the way they are because of a long line of mistakes in genetic coding.  Transwomen do have penises sometimes, but to deny them a womanhood that is an intrinsic part of them, is to reduce people's identities to their genitals, and that does an injustice to both cis and trans people. My identity as a woman is almost solely wrapped up in an essence that is not visible, similar to how a cat born without a meow or whiskers or fluffy fur could still be considered a cat, even though those are some tell-tale signs of being a cat.

So your beliefs are based on the unknown rather than the known? That's an act of faith.

I suppose. If I relied on direct personal experience alone, I wouldn't have much knowledge at all. I have never personally been to Greenland, but I believe it probably exists because I find the theory of it plausible. Is there a slight chance Greenland doesn't exist? Sure.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: two monkeys on May 15, 2018, 10:49:48 PM
I accept that trans women are women because I think our current understanding of science and the human experience does not even begin to capture the complexity of these matters. I think almost anything is possible inside and outside the womb. Evolution has proved that weird and wacky things happen all the time, and species are the way they are because of a long line of mistakes in genetic coding.  Transwomen do have penises sometimes, but to deny them a womanhood that is an intrinsic part of them, is to reduce people's identities to their genitals, and that does an injustice to both cis and trans people. My identity as a woman is almost solely wrapped up in an essence that is not visible, similar to how a cat born without a meow or whiskers or fluffy fur could still be considered a cat, even though those are some tell-tale signs of being a cat.

So your beliefs are based on the unknown rather than the known? That's an act of faith.

I suppose. If I relied on direct personal experience alone, I wouldn't have much knowledge at all. I have never personally been to Greenland, but I believe it probably exists because I find the theory of it plausible. Is there a slight chance Greenland doesn't exist? Sure.

No, you said 'our current understanding' which implies that in the future there will be more understanding. That is an unknown.

"And if I relied on direct personal experience alone, I wouldn't have much knowledge at all" 

Funny, that's the exact argument we're making about transwomens knowledge of being a woman.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: two monkeys on May 15, 2018, 10:53:25 PM
So your beliefs are based on the unknown rather than the known? That's an act of faith.

Soís your sexuality. Itís a protected characteristic that affords you some legal benefits, you could be pretending.

I wish it was that exciting but my sexuality is not based on a future scientific breakthrough.

I didn't realise I had protected characteristics. Does that mean I can get my bit of beard lasered off on the NHS?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: hellohowareyoutoday on May 15, 2018, 10:56:27 PM
So your beliefs are based on the unknown rather than the known? That's an act of faith.

Soís your sexuality. Itís a protected characteristic that affords you some legal benefits, you could be pretending.

I wish it was that exciting but my sexuality is not based on a future scientific breakthrough.

I didn't realise I had protected characteristics. Does that mean I can get my bit of beard lasered off on the NHS?

It's based on everyone believing you and giving you the benefit of the doubt that homosexuality exists.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 15, 2018, 10:56:49 PM
Quote
Gender reassignment surgery clinics and research seem to be funded by Jennifer Pritzker, a trans woman billionaire whose family helped Obama run for President. Jennifer has funded trans acceptance in the US military and more than 40 clinics in America.

Iíve seen the blog making really big claims about Jennifer Pritzker but in terms of actually proof, I can find $1m to a gender identity clinic. While I wouldnít turn down a million dollars myself, in the grand scheme of things itís not big money.


Quote
There's big money in transing people.

Thatís both really bad English and insulting but if youíve got any evidence Iíd love to see it, as would Betty, she made the same claim and then never came up with the goods.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 15, 2018, 11:02:20 PM
I wish it was that exciting but my sexuality is not based on a future scientific breakthrough
.

No, itís totally based on what you claim. Iím not doubting it, I canít see why youíd lie, I canít see why a trans person would lie either.

Quote
I didn't realise I had protected characteristics. Does that mean I can get my bit of beard lasered off on the NHS?

It depends on the area youíre in. If itís any help, I got one of those IPL gadgets in the middle at Lidl for Ä50. Iím not sure itís doing anything but it gives Wend something to do.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: two monkeys on May 15, 2018, 11:21:34 PM
I wish it was that exciting but my sexuality is not based on a future scientific breakthrough
.

No, itís totally based on what you claim. Iím not doubting it, I canít see why youíd lie, I canít see why a trans person would lie either.

Quote
I didn't realise I had protected characteristics. Does that mean I can get my bit of beard lasered off on the NHS?

It depends on the area youíre in. If itís any help, I got one of those IPL gadgets in the middle at Lidl for Ä50. Iím not sure itís doing anything but it gives Wend something to do.

I don't think anyone said transwomen are liars. I don't believe they are but I also don't believe they are biological women. Because they're not.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Blythe on May 15, 2018, 11:27:42 PM
350 plus people orchestrating tweets/emails to journalists and establishments that appear to sympathise or wish to help various women's groups meet to discuss GRA related issues.
You don't think that number of people could very effectively block/persuade/bully people into avoiding the issue or facilitating discussion??

That is worrying.
You're trying to minimise the attempt to shut down free speech.

A crowd of 30 people surrounded a lone woman at the Anarchist Book Fair who was handing out leaflets. She had to be rescued by the organisers. As a result of what they saw as mob tactics they decided to shut down the event forever more.
Anarchists!! They published a damning statement about the behaviour of trans activists.

What I see is women like the Rad fems reacting to that targeted onslaught. The TRA behaviour has actually caused women who weren't bothered about the issue to become aware.
Its peak transed far more than 350 men and women.
And I suspect will keep on doing so.

I noticed about two months ago lots of the online TRA stopped saying terf and started saying anti trans instead as they probably realised that the Terf word was becoming a toxic word.

They've also started trying to insist that female as a word is trans exclusionary, another mistake. Scores of women are pissed off that FGM is supposedly transphobic now. Another blunder.
Things are moving so quickly it's hard to keep up sometimes.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 15, 2018, 11:49:43 PM
The problem with screaming transphobia at anyone and everyone who disagrees is that the word will eventually lose all meaning. The transwoman who gets beaten up on the streets will no longer have a word to describe the hatred she has experienced. Also changing the word terf now itís got old wonít work, itís become a trope and enough people know about it for it to stick around and become corrupted.   
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: two monkeys on May 15, 2018, 11:55:13 PM
TERF doesn't cut it anymore because it's not just the crusty old rad fems having hysterics.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Madge Hooks on May 15, 2018, 11:59:30 PM
I accept that trans women are women because I think our current understanding of science and the human experience does not even begin to capture the complexity of these matters. I think almost anything is possible inside and outside the womb. Evolution has proved that weird and wacky things happen all the time, and species are the way they are because of a long line of mistakes in genetic coding.  Transwomen do have penises sometimes, but to deny them a womanhood that is an intrinsic part of them, is to reduce people's identities to their genitals, and that does an injustice to both cis and trans people. My identity as a woman is almost solely wrapped up in an essence that is not visible, similar to how a cat born without a meow or whiskers or fluffy fur could still be considered a cat, even though those are some tell-tale signs of being a cat.

Brilliant!
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Madge Hooks on May 16, 2018, 12:06:23 AM
If men can already access your space and commit rape without pretending to be woman and know they can get away with it, what advantage does pretending to be a woman actually have?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 16, 2018, 12:16:52 AM
350 plus people orchestrating tweets/emails to journalists and establishments that appear to sympathise or wish to help various women's groups meet to discuss GRA related issues.
You don't think that number of people could very effectively block/persuade/bully people into avoiding the issue or facilitating discussion??


Mumsnet has 11m members. Iím really not seeing how even that number can be Ďsilencedí by 350, half of who you claim are mad.


Quote
That is worrying.
You're trying to minimise the attempt to shut down free speech.

Oh, so disagreeing with you is an attempt to shut down free speech? I think youíve got free speech and not being challenged confused.

Quote
A crowd of 30 people surrounded a lone woman at the Anarchist Book Fair who was handing out leaflets. She had to be rescued by the organisers. As a result of what they saw as mob tactics they decided to shut down the event forever more.
Anarchists!! They published a damning statement about the behaviour of trans activists.

Personally, if I was giving out transphobic/racist/homophobic literature at an Anarchists book fair and escaped unharmed, Iíd think it was a result. Those people are a bit anarchical.


Quote
What I see is women like the Rad fems reacting to that targeted onslaught. The TRA behaviour has actually caused women who weren't bothered about the issue to become aware.
Its peak transed far more than 350 men and women.
And I suspect will keep on doing so.

Whatís Ďpeak transedí? That doesnít sound very nice, it sounds quite anti trans people, is there a word for that?

Quote
I noticed about two months ago lots of the online TRA stopped saying terf and started saying anti trans instead as they probably realised that the Terf word was becoming a toxic word.

I think that itís became increasing obvious that there was nothing feminist or radical about hating people for who they are.

Quote
They've also started trying to insist that female as a word is trans exclusionary, another mistake. Scores of women are pissed off that FGM is supposedly transphobic now. Another blunder.
Things are moving so quickly it's hard to keep up sometimes.

Iíve seen these type of accusations before, Ďtrans stole my breast feedingí, the high point for me was when there was a Mumsnet thread about ripping up your organ donor card, in case Ďtrans got my uterusí. I canít work out if itís a result of too much gin or not nearly enough.

Things are moving quickly, the rate at which people can make up stories is astonishing. Iím sure theyíre made up because if there were real the TRA mafia with all of their Ďtrans moneyí would be directing the narrative so much more effectively.

Itís almost like there are a few hundred Mumsnet types who are a bit paranoid and will believe any shit they read with no critical thought a few hundred teenagers in their bedrooms who are either equally pananoid or are taking the piss. I suspect quite a few of them are playing both sides.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 16, 2018, 12:18:30 AM
If men can already access your space and commit rape without pretending to be woman and know they can get away with it, what advantage does pretending to be a woman actually have?

It really advantages victims because the attacker would get seven years for dodgy paperwork on top of the 18 months he gets for rape.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 16, 2018, 12:26:28 AM
TERF doesn't cut it anymore because it's not just the crusty old rad fems having hysterics.

Nah, theyíve joined forces with some old birds in anoraks.

Iím not going to pretend that this is a political force to be reckoned with, neither group has been conspicuously successful in effecting change that improves their lot in life. The Rads have had forty years to smash the patriarchy with nerry a dent and the older women canít get their own husbands to wash up or their neighbours to park in their allotted places (yes, I do read the rest of Mumsnet, my job isnít demanding).

Itís more the atmosphere of animosity that gets me down. Would you really want your trans neighbour reading this?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Madge Hooks on May 16, 2018, 12:27:44 AM
If men can already access your space and commit rape without pretending to be woman and know they can get away with it, what advantage does pretending to be a woman actually have?

It really advantages victims because the attacker would get seven years for dodgy paperwork on top of the 18 months he gets for rape.

That sounds about right for the hierarchy of wrongdoing in the eyes of the law.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 16, 2018, 12:32:55 AM
If men can already access your space and commit rape without pretending to be woman and know they can get away with it, what advantage does pretending to be a woman actually have?

It really advantages victims because the attacker would get seven years for dodgy paperwork on top of the 18 months he gets for rape.

That sounds about right for the hierarchy of wrongdoing in the eyes of the law.

If only there werenít more pressing issues taking up all of our time we could try to address this shocking fact or get women in NI safe and legal abortion or the gay or NI equal marriage. Iím nearly sure that there is a nearby country did just  that, in reverse order, obvs.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Madge Hooks on May 16, 2018, 12:35:09 AM
Itís more the atmosphere of animosity that gets me down. Would you really want your trans neighbour reading this?

Same. And no. Thatís why I feel compelled to comment.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: two monkeys on May 16, 2018, 12:37:03 AM
If men can already access your space and commit rape without pretending to be woman and know they can get away with it, what advantage does pretending to be a woman actually have?

The advantage of not being challenged (this is with self IDing). Access to women's prisons, refuges etc.

I'm not sure what dodgy paperwork Top is referring to? but I'm sure any potential victims will be very gratified to know that their assailant will get done for a clerical error.

What's the 7 years about?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: two monkeys on May 16, 2018, 12:42:05 AM
TERF doesn't cut it anymore because it's not just the crusty old rad fems having hysterics.

Nah, theyíve joined forces with some old birds in anoraks.

Iím not going to pretend that this is a political force to be reckoned with, neither group has been conspicuously successful in effecting change that improves their lot in life. The Rads have had forty years to smash the patriarchy with nerry a dent and the older women canít get their own husbands to wash up or their neighbours to park in their allotted places (yes, I do read the rest of Mumsnet, my job isnít demanding).

Itís more the atmosphere of animosity that gets me down. Would you really want your trans neighbour reading this?

Yeah, and patriarchy's only been around since like the 1950's or something so you think the stupid bitches would have sorted it out by now.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 16, 2018, 12:42:14 AM
If men can already access your space and commit rape without pretending to be woman and know they can get away with it, what advantage does pretending to be a woman actually have?

It really advantages victims because the attacker would get seven years for dodgy paperwork on top of the 18 months he gets for rape.

That sounds about right for the hierarchy of wrongdoing in the eyes of the law.

How could they prove that the paperwork was dodgy? I thought being trans-was a feeling, and you canít disprove a feeling.  Weíll have got rid of all the checks and balances so no proof will have been necessary. Itís all very reassuring isnít it.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Madge Hooks on May 16, 2018, 01:25:03 AM
First this thread would lead you to believe that itís about stretchy sexuality - though it strikes me that I canít talk about how stretchy mine is as weíre in DCG, so Iím only restricted to medical terminology for genitals (dildos seem to be ok?) - but given that only a handful of people in XX pages have responded to the title question, itís not designed to be a straw poll on lesbian activity at all.

That said, it was made quite clear that it was in response to a worried young lesbian of Mumsnet. But until that source was shared, much unframed debate was had regarding having to fancy transwomen otherwise youíre transphobic, use of toilets, paperwork and how woman is woman. How trans activists have far too much time on their hands. How all of this affects womenís rights.

Then the Mumsnet source was shared and, while the content of which doesnít really resonate with me, it was a really well considered written piece and I canít see the inspirational link from that in terms of tone of voice to the thread title nor the initial post of focusing on genital-based appreciation. Or not.

Regardless of worried young lesbian of Mumsnet, the discussion continued and a couple of women shared deeply personal stories of abuse by men to illustrate how transwomen aren't women and how self id would impact womenís safety.

To this point, Iím not a world of sure what this thread is about other than anti-trans sentiment in the name of womenís rights.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 16, 2018, 01:35:52 AM
First this thread would lead you to believe that itís about stretchy sexuality - though it strikes me that I canít talk about how stretchy mine is as weíre in DCG, so Iím only restricted to medical terminology for genitals (dildos seem to be ok?) - but given that only a handful of people in XX pages have responded to the title question, itís not designed to be a straw poll on lesbian activity at all.

That said, it was made quite clear that it was in response to a worried young lesbian of Mumsnet. But until that source was shared, much unframed debate was had regarding having to fancy transwomen otherwise youíre transphobic, use of toilets, paperwork and how woman is woman. How trans activists have far too much time on their hands. How all of this affects womenís rights.

Then the Mumsnet source was shared and, while the content of which doesnít really resonate with me, it was a really well considered written piece and I canít see the inspirational link from that in terms of tone of voice to the thread title nor the initial post of focusing on genital-based appreciation. Or not.

Regardless of worried young lesbian of Mumsnet, the discussion continued and a couple of women shared deeply personal stories of abuse by men to illustrate how transwomen aren't women and how self id would impact womenís safety.

To this point, Iím not a world of sure what this thread is about other than anti-trans sentiment in the name of womenís rights.

No, I didnít share my story of sexual abuse to prove that transwomen are not women, you patronising fuck. Thatís your lack of verbal comprehension.

When your intersectional feminism forgets to be feminist at all or never actually was in the first place.

But I suppose it proves the point of what we were saying. If two lesbians are not allowed to tell their back stories that show why safety in single sex spaces is important to them, on a place that marketed itself heavily on being for lesbians, then we are clearly been silenced.

And Madge, you can regale us with stories of your sexual bendiness as much as you like. You can use whatever terminology you like. But I think you are well capable of appreciating that the thread title might be usefully compared with the content of the opening post. Just a social heads up. And threads do develop and people discuss other things.

But if your bottom line is that we have to silence ourselves about legislation that will
Potentially prejudice us, in case some trans women are listening and are offended by it, then it ainít going to happen and if you educated yourself you would find transsexual and transwomen who are saying that they also oppose this legislation for the exact reasons we do - which is their safety is being potentially compromised by self Id  abuse. Why our feelings and interests donít count but theirs do, demonstrates a bigger underlying problem that your silencing and shaming tactics are playing a part in.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 16, 2018, 01:54:36 AM
Jees, whoda thunk I wouldíve broke my silence on a filthy secret Iíve been suppressing for 23 years just to score a grubby little point in a transphobic slanging match on the Internet. The problem with opinions Madge is that everybody has one but not everybodysí agrees with yourís.
 Oh and just before I go to sleep, what the fuck is wrong with feminists standing up for the rights of girls and women?       
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 16, 2018, 02:14:01 AM
Iíve never told that story to anyone before now and Iím being told by Madge to shut the f*ck up because telling it, even though itís about a ďcis manĒ, makes me a transphobe. Seriously I am gobsmacked. Where do we tell our stories? Where do our opinions count?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Sorted. on May 16, 2018, 07:59:45 AM
God.  Iím So sorry for all of you who (and any one reading but not posting) who have suffered sexual assault or rape.

I would hate to think that anyone on the verge of posting about their own experience isnít put off.
 Of course the two disclosures weíve had arenít part of an anti-trans agenda.  What a horrible suggestion. 

Itís men isnít it? Again.  And women must be able to to talk about their fear concerns around men and self Id.  Men.    If we feel  shut out of the conversation because of Ďoh my god - you hate transwomen.  TERFí. )I donít.  Iím not) the  fear and the concerns will grow and letís face it, probably  become a reality for some poor woman somewhere.  . 

Iíve enjoyed this discussion too.  Iíve been given lots to think about.   
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Lust for Life on May 16, 2018, 08:17:14 AM
Top, if you don't want those two posts labeled with Trigger Warning, what else would have spared your flashbacks? I have never seen trigger warnings used for silly wallpaper on GB, by the way, even if they are misused elsewhere on the Internet. And I am sorry for your experiences (the assault as well as the flashbacks).

I am also sorry for everyone's bad experiences, such as those of Slantrhyme and BCFB.

Madge, your misreading of the reasons Slantrhyme and BCFB posted about their experiences is shocking. If it was deliberate, then it was in extremely bad taste. If it was somehow accidental, then you might at least try to apologise.

And while this thread is changing my mind on the whole issue, that is in spite of, rather than because of, a whole load of activism that refuses to take women's concerns seriously.

And my objection to Paris Lees' statement being read as that of a woman, full stop, rather than a transwoman, is not based on her current identity, but by her own explanation in the blog that was linked in this thread: "I wasn't brought up that way". That is the whole bloody point. She was brought up as a boy. She was brought up to see catcalling from a male viewpoint. I totally accept that there are women who enjoy catcalls, but this particular woman refers to how she was brought up, and while there are women who were brought up as girls who enjoy catcalling, Paris Lees is not one of them.

The quality of the debate in this thread dive bombed in the last page or so, by the way. I am a middle-aged mother of two. I do possess an anorak, but rarely wear it. I see plenty of people of all ages, parenting status and most identities in anoraks whenever it rains. And has 'bird' been reclaimed as a respectful way to refer to women? I didn't get the memo >:(
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Madge Hooks on May 16, 2018, 08:48:25 AM
I applaud women for sharing their stories, so please do not think for one second that Iím attempting to silence them.

My point is, and Iíll be even more clear about it:

There have been two type of Ďbenefactorsí identified in the GRC self id discussion within this thread: transwomen and men pretending being to women to be able to commit wrongdoing.

Iím going to point out a sad truth: it has been men identifying as men who have carried out these attacks. They have either accessed your space or done it in their own. There is no convenient advantage to be gained by them self IDing as a woman.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 16, 2018, 09:00:03 AM
@Top, trying to quote your above post but it wonít let me for some reason
 Yet youíre quite happy to throw all women under the bus because you support changing the law so any man can self ID on the strength of a feeling and come into womensí single sex spaces.  The problem with that is once you let one man  through the door  itís no longer female only, and one becomes two becomes three etc, then there is no more single sex spaces.  The EA wonít help because the law does not save women from violations, it just disbelieves them after the event, and human rights law is all about balancing peoples right to rights, in this case the rights of a woman versus the rights of a man who feels entitled to get what he wants. We all know how thatís going to turn out donít we, yeah because itís already happening, transphobia transphobia transphobia shut up women. 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 16, 2018, 09:18:23 AM
It is appallingly disingenuous to say ďThis canít effect you in the slightest. No you are not less safe. Your whole motive for talking about the issue is transphobicĒ and then when we do tell our stories to explain why it harms us and why we have our concerns itís a mad juxtaposition of ďshould have been a trigger warningĒ, ďyou canít stop men raping you anyway so shut up about itĒ.

I think anyone in their right mind willing to think about it for two seconds follows the logic of what we are saying and why itís neither transphobic. malicious or invalid.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 16, 2018, 09:39:04 AM
 Iím still waiting for an explanation of how anybody is going to prove that Mr toilet rapistĎs paperwork is fraudulent.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 16, 2018, 09:39:43 AM
Quote
And while this thread is changing my mind on the whole issue, that is in spite of, rather than because of, a whole load of activism that refuses to take women's concerns seriously.

I think that this is the crux for me. Itís not that I doubt that anyoneís concerns are genuine, of course they are, itís about them being realistic. Then thereís  my heartfelt belief that weíre all equally worthy of protection.

Coming back to Musetteís daughter. it seems that for whatever reason, some people have a problem putting a face of young trans girls and women and that makes them able to frame this as being women against trans women, when itís actually two lots of women and there is no actual Ďagainstí.

If anyone was to suggest sending another small group of women into the gents to stop cis men attacking cis women, weíd all be, rightly, pretty horrified. If it was Ďletís exclude butch women from womenís spaceí because some them donít meet someoneís personal standard of femininity or gender presentation, youíd all be open mouthed. Now Iím comfortable with butch women, Iím married to one, but I know that some straight women arenít, their concerns are genuine. Iíve seen straight women clock her in the ladies and do a, genuinely fearful, double take, while they try to assess who or what they are dealing with. Some donít take the time, they just run.

So my wife would be safer in the gents, sheíd draw less attention than a young girl who happened to be trans because after Slantyís harrowing recounting of what happened to her, the idea of sending another girls into a near identical situation freaks me out.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 16, 2018, 09:44:51 AM
Iím still waiting for an explanation of how anybody is going to prove that Mr toilet rapistĎs paperwork is fraudulent.

No youíre not. Youíve been told about six time that exactly what the stat dec will say hasnít been decided. Do you need it on the top of every page?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 16, 2018, 09:48:09 AM
Itís possibly the one point you keep making that assures up beyond doubt that you are being disingenuous and scraping the barrel.

You havenít just scraped it, youíve whittled it paper thin.

Probably most of us on this thread have experienced odd looks in the loo and elsewhere for being perceived as gender non conforming or gay. None of us object to butch women of any degree in the loo.

And gender critical people are the last people on the planet whoíd suggest a butch woman is not woman enough. There are people who do that. Who seek to define women by their conformity to femininity. Miss World Judges, men and transactivists.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 16, 2018, 09:50:37 AM
I think anyone in their right mind willing to think about it for two seconds follows the logic of what we are saying and why itís neither transphobic. malicious or invalid.

For what itís worth, I think that this position would be more believeable if those presenting it were a little more robust about picking up on anti trans rhetoric. When things like not allowing trans children access to medical treatment, isnít challenged it does make you appear a little complicit. Like youíre allowing foot soliders to do agitating and then coming in with the legal argument.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 16, 2018, 09:53:51 AM
Iím still waiting for an explanation of how anybody is going to prove that Mr toilet rapistĎs paperwork is fraudulent.

No youíre not. Youíve been told about six time that exactly what the stat dec will say hasnít been decided. Do you need it on the top of every page?

You more or less put it at the top of every page anyway. Itís still nonsense every time you say it.

It has been decided. It will be pure self Id. ďI identify and wish to be known as the following genderĒ. End of. Which will be impossible to prove fraudulent.

The need for a Stat Dec has not been decided.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 16, 2018, 09:56:46 AM
Probably most of us on this thread have experienced odd looks in the loo and elsewhere for being perceived as gender non conforming or gay. None of us object to butch women of any degree in the loo.

And gender critical people are the last people on the planet whoíd suggest a butch woman is not woman enough. There are people who do that. Who seek to define women by their conformity to femininity. Miss World Judges, men and transactivists.

No, youíre refusing to accept that because you donít have concerns around butch women, that anyone could. My experience is that they do, Iíve seen it with my own eyes. A former GF was grabbed by security on her way into a hotel loo, she was almost knocked off her feet while being directed to the gents.

Another woman I was in a relationship with, had a service station employee go almost nose to nose with her as she went into the loo. He was less physical but much more aggressive.

Iím not talking about the Ďgender criticalí or any lesbian subsect, Iím talking about regular, straight women, who arenít familiar with our funny little ways.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 16, 2018, 09:57:58 AM
Iím still waiting for an explanation of how anybody is going to prove that Mr toilet rapistĎs paperwork is fraudulent.

No youíre not. Youíve been told about six time that exactly what the stat dec will say hasnít been decided. Do you need it on the top of every page?

You more or less put it at the top of every page anyway. Itís still nonsense every time you say it.

It has been decided. It will be pure self Id. ďI identify and wish to be known as the following genderĒ. End of. Which will be impossible to prove fraudulent.

The need for a Stat Dec has not been decided.

Can you point me in the direction of your source for this information?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 16, 2018, 09:58:46 AM
I think anyone in their right mind willing to think about it for two seconds follows the logic of what we are saying and why itís neither transphobic. malicious or invalid.

For what itís worth, I think that this position would be more believeable if those presenting it were a little more robust about picking up on anti trans rhetoric. When things like not allowing trans children access to medical treatment, isnít challenged it does make you appear a little complicit. Like youíre allowing foot soliders to do agitating and then coming in with the legal argument.

Oh so you canít find any transphobia to highlight so you will infer it from what weíre not saying. Thatís a ham fisted alternative way of stopping us talking about our concerns. We now have to talk about the items on your agenda first. We can see what you are doing and itís not our credibility thatís being damaged here.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 16, 2018, 10:00:21 AM
 Here you go again top, using another posters child to try and score some manipulative points. Who would dare to disagree with you in front of that childís mother. Youíre a fucking disgrace, to be honest.
I bet Musetteís daughter looks nothing like a fully grown, fully sexually developed man.   This argument is bollocks.
 If youíre claiming to be triggered by what youíve read on here, donít use other peopleĎs difficult emotional experiences or their children as manipulative pawns to deflect the fact that you donít have an   argument.
Iím sorry Musette, I was angry and I reacted. I realise that now look what youíve made me do is not a good reason or excuse for doing anything. Please accept my apology.   . 
 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 16, 2018, 10:03:29 AM
I think anyone in their right mind willing to think about it for two seconds follows the logic of what we are saying and why itís neither transphobic. malicious or invalid.

For what itís worth, I think that this position would be more believeable if those presenting it were a little more robust about picking up on anti trans rhetoric. When things like not allowing trans children access to medical treatment, isnít challenged it does make you appear a little complicit. Like youíre allowing foot soliders to do agitating and then coming in with the legal argument.

Oh so you canít find any transphobia to highlight so you will infer it from what weíre not saying. Thatís a ham fisted alternative way of stopping us talk about our concerns. We now have to talk about the things of items on your agenda first. We can see what you are doing and itís not our credibility thatís being damaged here.

Betty, Iíd love to take the transphobia out of this conversation. Batting away the claims of trans lobbies, loaded with secret cash, plotting to undermine the safety of ĎReal Womaní really does take away from the debate, as do claims of being silenced when youíre disagreed with or asked to provide evidence of anything.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Sorted. on May 16, 2018, 10:05:19 AM
Slanty - please consider an edit.  Mussette doesnít need to read that. 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 16, 2018, 10:06:47 AM
Probably most of us on this thread have experienced odd looks in the loo and elsewhere for being perceived as gender non conforming or gay. None of us object to butch women of any degree in the loo.

And gender critical people are the last people on the planet whoíd suggest a butch woman is not woman enough. There are people who do that. Who seek to define women by their conformity to femininity. Miss World Judges, men and transactivists.

No, youíre refusing to accept that because you donít have concerns around butch women, that anyone could. My experience is that they do, Iíve seen it with my own eyes. A former GF was grabbed by security on her way into a hotel loo, she was almost knocked off her feet while being directed to the gents.

Another woman I was in a relationship with, had a service station employee go almost nose to nose with her as she went into the loo. He was less physical but much more aggressive.

Iím not talking about the Ďgender criticalí or any lesbian subsect, Iím talking about regular, straight women, who arenít familiar with our funny little ways.

You must switch between manipulating Mums on Mumsnet to us to Twitter so often on your all day full time unfunded campaigning job that you forget which audience your speaking to or which guilt trip buttons to press

Youíre lecturing us on our own experience here and trying to set up a false impression that this is a war on butch women so they ought to pick your side. Itís just bollocks and I adopt everything Ougat said from her own experience as a supremely butch woman on the subject.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 16, 2018, 10:07:22 AM
Here you go again top, using another posters child to try and score some manipulative points. Who would dare to disagree with you in front of that childís mother. Youíre a fucking disgrace, to be honest

Iím sorry that it makes you so uncomfortable to be reminded that youíre the one sending that young women into the gents and that youíd rather send faceless trans women in there.


Quote
Did you want me to refer to Musetteís daughterís genitals? Well there you go, youíve got what you want now.  This argument is bollocks.

No one made you do that. Take responsibility for your own actions.


Quote
If youíre claiming to be triggered by what youíve read on here, donít use other peopleĎs difficult emotional experiences or their children as manipulative pawns to deflect the fact that you donít have an   argument.

I donít see why someone elseís lived experience is less valid than yours.
 
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 16, 2018, 10:09:05 AM
 My understanding is that the new proposed terms of the GRA havenít been published yet, but it is widely believed that self declaration will be the only required evidence.
 We are allowed to talk about that, because if it does transpire we have genuine concerns.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Lust for Life on May 16, 2018, 10:12:06 AM
I applaud women for sharing their stories, so please do not think for one second that Iím attempting to silence them.

My point is, and Iíll be even more clear about it:

There have been two type of Ďbenefactorsí identified in the GRC self id discussion within this thread: transwomen and men pretending being to women to be able to commit wrongdoing.

Iím going to point out a sad truth: it has been men identifying as men who have carried out these attacks. They have either accessed your space or done it in their own. There is no convenient advantage to be gained by them self IDing as a woman.


Well I'm looking really hard, but I am missing a) an apology and b) an admission that you misinterpreted Slanty and Betty's reasons for sharing their experience.

You don't have to apologise, of course you don't. Equally, I am entitled to consider you unreasonable, astonishingly rude and insensitive. This does affect how I read all your posts, by the way. I may be the only person who does this, but I doubt it. It switches on a mental 'ignore/take with a bucket of salt' filter.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 16, 2018, 10:15:37 AM
Itís what Stonewall have asked for :

Self determination for all trans people and no need to present underlying evidence.

Itís what both Jeremy Corbyn and Dawn Butler have said. In Dawn Butlers words - no piece of paper was even necessary and the Government have said that self Id is the proposed plan.

I donít know why this is being disputed. Itís the whole point.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 16, 2018, 10:16:00 AM
Youíre lecturing us on our own experience here and trying to set up a false impression that this is a war on butch women so they ought to pick your side. Itís just bollocks and I adopt everything Ougat said from her own experience as a supremely butch woman on the subject.

Thatís an interesting interpretation, Iíll try and be clearer. I havenít suggested that this is a war in butch women, simply that some people are uncomfortable when they see butch women, they perceive to be men in the loo. Furthermore, a concern being genuine doesnít make it valid.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Sorted. on May 16, 2018, 10:16:37 AM
Itís what Stonewall have asked for :

Self determination for all trans people and no need to present underlying evidence.

Itís what both Jeremy Corbyn and Dawn Butler have said. In Dawn Butlers words - no piece of paper was even necessary and the Government have said that self Id is the proposed plan.

I donít know why this is being disputed. Itís the whole point.

Thatís my take.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 16, 2018, 10:16:52 AM
Here you go again top, using another posters child to try and score some manipulative points. Who would dare to disagree with you in front of that childís mother. Youíre a fucking disgrace, to be honest

Iím sorry that it makes you so uncomfortable to be reminded that youíre the one sending that young women into the gents and that youíd rather send faceless trans women in there.


Quote
Did you want me to refer to Musetteís daughterís genitals? Well there you go, youíve got what you want now.  This argument is bollocks.

No one made you do that. Take responsibility for your own actions.


Quote
If youíre claiming to be triggered by what youíve read on here, donít use other peopleĎs difficult emotional experiences or their children as manipulative pawns to deflect the fact that you donít have an   argument.

I donít see why someone elseís lived experience is less valid than yours.
No, it isnít, but Iím not offering their child up as an example to score points. My lived experience is my own and I can say what I like about it, you do not have that right about someone elseís child.
Sorted, I will edit my post in a bit but I really must get on with some stuff. I have already been quoted but I will edit anyway.   
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 16, 2018, 10:17:51 AM
Itís what Stonewall have asked for :

Self determination for all trans people and no need to present underlying evidence.

Itís what both Jeremy Corbyn and Dawn Butler have said. In Dawn Butlers words - no piece of paper was even necessary and the Government have said that self Id is the proposed plan.

I donít why this is being disputed. Itís the whole point.

So, youíre claiming that Stonewalls proposals are being accepted without question? Are they going to skip the debate and vote too?  You are funny. ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 16, 2018, 10:19:09 AM
Youíre lecturing us on our own experience here and trying to set up a false impression that this is a war on butch women so they ought to pick your side. Itís just bollocks and I adopt everything Ougat said from her own experience as a supremely butch woman on the subject.

Thatís an interesting interpretation, Iíll try and be clearer. I havenít suggested that this is a war in butch women, simply that some people are uncomfortable when they see butch women, they perceive to be men in the loo. Furthermore, a concern being genuine doesnít make it valid.

Who should determine whose concerns are valid and whose arenít? Certainly not you.

The Government should but they need to hear us first. And that consultation is what you and the masked men trying to close down meetings are trying to prevent.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 16, 2018, 10:23:21 AM
No, it isnít, but Iím not offering their child up as an example to score points. My lived experience is my own and I can say what I like about it, you do not have that right about someone elseís child.
Sorted, I will edit my post in a bit but I really must get on with some stuff. I have already been quoted but I will edit anyway.   

Every single trans woman is a human being with a mother somewhere. Every single person who you see as a potential rapist, although they havenít touched you, is someoneís friend. I wish that there was some way to elicit a bit of empathy without having to put a face on on a trans people but youíre having problems with that.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Lust for Life on May 16, 2018, 10:29:40 AM
I suppose now is a bit late to ask how transgender as a word came to replace transsexual? Because f I think about it too hard it's actually very confusing: transgender seems to mean ' I am a woman although I was perceived as a boy when I was born. I may (very likely) aspire to having my body and hormones changed to match who I am'.(and the same sentence with man/girl). This used to be called transsexual.

Gender, on the other hand, is a set of social/cultural stuff (norms, behaviour, clothing), and behaviour that doesn't conform to society's expectations was/is called gender bending.

So, when Eddie Izzard calls himself a transgender man, my first reaction was to be confused, but now I think his definition of transgender makes a hell of a lot more sense than the dominant definition. ???
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 16, 2018, 10:30:13 AM
Top, Slanty never said she sees trans people as potential rapists. Thatís your thuggery talking not hers.

Sheís asking for empathy for her position and being told to get over it.

Iím going to work now. Youíll still be welded to your chair repeating the same crap when I come back in 10 hours.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 16, 2018, 10:46:38 AM
Who should determine whose concerns are valid and whose arenít? Certainly not you
.

In the real world, the consultation process, that the government have promised, will look at which concerns are valid. Hopefully they will be able to distinguish the genuine but utterly unfounded from the valid.

Quote
The Government should but they need to hear us first. And that consultation is what you and the masked men trying to close down meetings are trying to prevent.

Sorry, who is Ďusí are you speaking on behalf of a group? Iíve really noticed that there are a lot of collective plurals in this conversation and so few people speaking on behalf of themselves.

As for the meeting, my advice would be the same as it is for this thread. If you stop being complicit in the actual transphobia, youíre much more likely to get your voice heard. Moderate your more extremes members, donít attend meetings organised by women who film themselves describing trans women as Ďevil, deluded or mentally illí and pop it up on YouTube for all to see, or who liken transgenderism to being a parasite. Donít lump people like me in with masked men, it makes you look paranoid and unable to differentiate between the real and the imagined.

If you find yourself being agreed with by Jacob Reece Mogg and Katie Hopkins, consider that your message might not be one that palatable to a wider audience.

You have a vote and an MP you can write to, just the same as the rest of us and Iím sure that there are a miriade of LGBT organisation who are lobbying and would be fascinated to hear your concerns.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 16, 2018, 10:54:53 AM
 Top, it would be really helpful if you could read posts in a way that takes notice of what theyíre actually saying, rather than what you think they mean.
 I will not continue this line of conversation because youíre dragging me into the gutter, and thatís not where I want to be. If you think itís fine and the only way you can win your argument, whatever that is, then crack on, but I am ending my part in it right now.
 I will repeat myself again, please do not bring other board userís children into this debate. You havenít been given permission to do so as far as I can tell, so have some fucking respect.   
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 16, 2018, 11:04:04 AM
I just wanted to leave this here because I don't want to take it to work with me and undermine my own ability to earn my living by having it chew me up. And this has what this discussion has left me feeling :

Them : "Women are not in danger of being raped. Its scaremongering."

Women talk about their experiences of rape.

Them: "You're accusing all people with penises of being potential rapists."

Seriously, ffs.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: MissRosie on May 16, 2018, 11:35:07 AM

 I will repeat myself again, please do not bring other board userís children into this debate. You havenít been given permission to do so as far as I can tell, so have some fucking respect.   

Actually I am one of the board user mothers whom Top has referred to earlier on in this thread, and whilst I obviously cannot claim to know how the board user she most recently referred to feels, I personally have zero problem with my perspective being amplified by her. I think she is making some incredibly valuable points and suspect that I am not the only one who is grateful for her continued presence on this thread.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: MissRosie on May 16, 2018, 11:39:41 AM
Oh MissRosie you're that Rosie?  Brilliant!

I mean hi.  /affects nonchalance/

Ha! only just saw this, hi! X
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 16, 2018, 11:45:52 AM
 Well thatís your prerogative, but refering directly to the experience of another board user without demonstrating explicit consent is not acceptable, especially in this case. There is no blurred lines on this one.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 16, 2018, 11:48:34 AM
I suppose now is a bit late to ask how transgender as a word came to replace transsexual? Because f I think about it too hard it's actually very confusing: transgender seems to mean ' I am a woman although I was perceived as a boy when I was born. I may (very likely) aspire to having my body and hormones changed to match who I am'.(and the same sentence with man/girl). This used to be called transsexual.

Basically, Ďtranssexualí was a mental health diagnoses, there are two manuals used to classify mental heath diagnoses internationally, one has totally dropped this Ďillnessí and the other plans to, when itís republished. 

One of the reasons for going along the Ďself idí route, is that the psychiatric community are in the process of moving away from thinking that Ďtranssexualityí is an illness, in the same way that they did with homosexuality in the 60s. They donít want to see an automatic Ďmedicalisationí of people with, I donít know how to describe it, different genders, different gender presentations?

ĎGender dysphoriaí, which was one of the diagnostic criterial for TS, is still seen as an illness but not all trans people have that illness.

The TS people who wrote to the Guardian and were discussed earlier in the thread, donít agree that transsexuality as an illness should be discounted. They perceive themselves as being Ďreal transí. Until recently, there was a very strict set of guidelines that a TS person had to adhere to before they could get a diagnoses. I know women who were sent away from their clinic appointments for wearing jeans because they werenít Ďdressed like womení. As wider society has moved on with ideas of what Ďbeing a womaní or Ďbeing a maní is, the doctors treating these folks, have also moved the requirements.

Many people are now being treated at gender identity clinics who wouldnít have previously reached the clinical definition but now, most women live and present in a way that wouldnít have met the previous definition.

There are now people who identify themselves as trans, who donít feel that they were Ďborn in the wrong bodyí, (that was always a simplistic bit of tosh but you know what I mean). Those folks donít want to be medicalised, some donít want to have surgery, some donít want to take hormonal treatment. These people are confusing for most of us, I donít know what the right thing to do with them is.

The other aspect thatís difficult for many is the different treatment cultures in Europe and the US. Here, trans people usually start living in their acquired gender before medical treatment but in the US they undergo hormonal treatment first, sometimes for years before living in their acquired gender, that can lead to stuff that messes with peopleís perceptions. For example there arr people who are taking hormones and have an online presence while still going to work as their birth sex, so you can find people with beards and breasts, saying that they are women and should be treated as women.


There is also the confusing American phenomenon, due to the cost of surgery and insurance poverty, of people who, have body dismorphia and would like to undergo surgery but just canít afford to. This is used by some who would discredit trans people as a reason to exclude them. Itís also the source of the often quoted Ď80% of trans women havenít had surgeryí, thatís not actually a direct quote, it tends to be more crude. Itís also cheaper to have breast implants than to have the downstairs attended to, the result of which is another source of complaint for some. The cost of treatment is also cited as a reason who trans women are over represented as sex workers, another stick thatís used to beat them.

There are some people who were born male, call themselves trans and dress in clothes normally assigned to both genders, you know, the ones who used to be cross dressers or TV. Some people think that they could get GRC and invade but they donít think of themselves as women and they donít live, full time as women, so I think itís unlikely and even Bettyís suggestion of what the stat dec would say, wouldnít include them, unless you go down the route of Ďthey could lieí and of course, anyone could lie but we donít get rid of loads of things that people could lie about, we just punish them when they do.

So, the big trans umbrella got bigger and I donít pretend to understand everyone who is underneath it but then I canít understand women who fancy men either.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: MissRosie on May 16, 2018, 11:49:56 AM
Well thatís your prerogative, but refering directly to the experience of another board user without demonstrating explicit consent is not acceptable, especially in this case. There is no blurred lines on this one.
why?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 16, 2018, 11:55:01 AM
Well thatís your prerogative, but refering directly to the experience of another board user without demonstrating explicit consent is not acceptable, especially in this case. There is no blurred lines on this one.

I donít need to demonstrate explicit consent to you, youíre not the post police. You are, again, making wild assumptions. Please stop doing it.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 16, 2018, 12:05:22 PM
I'm sadly aware that probably the majority of women on here have suffered serious sexual assault, and the feelings of those who are consequently against self-ID is my personal big sticking point in this debate, because as someone who hasn't I just don't see how I can dictate anything to anyone who has, on any side.  And I don't see any possible resolution that doesn't hurt anyone, I can only see the compromise of third spaces, which I hope would be an interim measure while self-ID proved unproblematic .

However I don't think anybody here is arguing in bad faith or just to score points and it really doesn't help the debate when people start thinking that.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 16, 2018, 12:21:49 PM
Quote
I just wanted to leave this here because I don't want to take it to work with me and undermine my own ability to earn my living by having it chew me up. And this has what this discussion has left me feeling :

Them : "Women are not in danger of being raped. Its scaremongering."

I can see that the subtle nuances of my argument havenít hit home, so Iíll got for it again.

No, women are in danger of being raped. Most often by men that they are in living with, followed by men they are in relationships with, followed by men they are casually dating. There are millions of things that would have a real impact on cutting the numbers of rapes, locking up all men between 18-40 would have the most dramatic impact but we donít do that because of  civil liberties and human rights. Cutting down on the sale of cheap booze would help, as would stopping sporting events. We have a tradition of waiting for men to actually commit a crime before we punish them and then we punish them as individuals, not as a class of people and we most certainly donít withhold civil liberties for another class of people, entirely, because men rape.




Youíre so lucky being able to hang around the house until this time, some of us have been in work since 6am. How the other half lives, hey? Iím very envious but good for you.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 16, 2018, 12:24:09 PM
  I can only see the compromise of third spaces, which I hope would be an interim measure while self-ID proved unproblematic .

If people who didnít want to wee in the ladies with the rest of us,want a third space, Iíve no objection to that. Maybe they could have a special tax code to pay for it?
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Wolfgang on May 16, 2018, 01:58:21 PM
I don't like it either.  It's segregating people because apparently nobody else wants to share a space with them: like civil partnerships it implies 2nd class status.  I would hope that there's an overall benefit to everyone in increasing equality and move straight to self-ID because in fact we already have had an interim period in the form of the preceding legislation, but when it comes to telling someone like Slanty to just tolerate it I'd much rather someone else did it for me. That's absolutely moral cowardice.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Madge Hooks on May 16, 2018, 03:19:10 PM
I take full responsibility for what said. I donít yet see how crimes committed against women, by men identifying as men, are realistic cause for concern in a debate about trans identity and gender recognition, with a definite slant on changing one's gender to Ďwomaní.

Since Top has her facts on copy/paste, and as Miss Rosie states in her blogpost:although the belief seems to be that this change in the law will create a new right for trans women who reject medical transitions to enter women-only spaces, the reality is that section 7 of the 2010 equality act already affords trans women the right to access gender appropriate spaces and services, regardless of their medical status or if they have a gender recognition certificate.  I feel itís extraneous for me to mention yet again that transwomen have been lawfully permitted to use the Ladies toilets for the best part of this decade. If any anecdotal bother has come of that, Iím all ears.

I have been respectful. Please donít demand an apology from me because I certainly would be a long time waiting if I were to expect an apology from anyone else.

Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Madge Hooks on May 16, 2018, 03:27:10 PM
I also think thereís a marked difference between Ďmaking enemies of trans activistsí and Ďtrans activists being the enemyí.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Top on May 16, 2018, 03:28:54 PM
Of course the third space wouldnít be for trans women, Wolfie, it would be for the Ďgenuinely concernedí.
Title: Re: How far does your sexuality stretch?
Post by: Slantrhyme on May 16, 2018, 03:34:13 PM
 There are actually people campaigning for civil partnerships to be extended to opposite sex couples. Not many as I understand, but they definitely exist.
 If we had womenís spaces, menís spaces, and gender neutral spaces for those who wanted them the problem would be solved. The thing is, I expect a large proportion of women would still use the womenís and this would prove how many women do not want mixed sex spaces, and seeing that the agenda is to eradicate all womenís spaces it wouldnít do.Iíve been to places where there are menís toilets and the womenís toilets have been relabelled gender neutral. Iíve been to places where there are gender neutral cubicles and the door marked men for the urinals. This is perfectly fair for men who donít want to give up their privilege of not waiting in a queue and pissing in a trough, but not on women who want a man free environment to urinate, change their sanitary products, urinate in an environment that isnít drenched in piss,  call a taxi because that creepy date is scaring her, wash out her moon cup, or have a good blub safe in the knowledge that the only people who will be in there are female.
 We have three options, we have three sets of facilities so nobody has to use the facility of agenda they donít identify with, we have two sets of facilities, one gender neutral and one for men, which is inherently unfair, or we have one facility, which men donít want because they have to queue to piss and women donít want because they want a womenís only space. There only seems to be one fair option out of those three. For changing rooms I bet even more women would object to mixed sex facilities than for toilets.      &