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Worksafe => Discussion, Chat and Gossip => Topic started by: Wolfgang on Apr 18, 2017, 07:01:26 PM

Title: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on Apr 18, 2017, 07:01:26 PM
Because if we can't muster a thread about this…
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Trifle on Apr 18, 2017, 07:28:36 PM
I'm worried Labour will be obliterated.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 18, 2017, 09:11:13 PM
They will, unfortunately.

Voted Labour my entire life.

Not this time though.

It really saddens me to see the party brought to its knees by the current leadership.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Trifle on Apr 18, 2017, 09:48:24 PM
Indeed.  :-\

And if Scotland becomes independent it will be very hard for Labour to gain power again in the future. Things are looking pretty bleak.

I've no idea who I'll vote for.

Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Lyco on Apr 18, 2017, 09:50:45 PM
I'm relieved. So so relieved.

Seriously.

I mean, yes Labour is heading for electoral oblivion and yes, the result will be brutal and the worse for decades but perhaps, just perhaps it'll finally mean the end of the Corbyn experiment. The thought of watching Labour sink further down in the polls and spending the next two years seeing Corbyn destroy what is left of the Labour Party has been unbearable.

It'll hurt and it'll be shit on the night itself but it might mean the end of Corbyn comes sooner rather than later and there will be something left to salvage.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Trifle on Apr 18, 2017, 10:15:18 PM
I hear what you're saying. Who will replace him though. Not that long ago he was voted back in as the leader despite it looking like he was unelectable.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 18, 2017, 10:29:31 PM
I'm relieved. So so relieved.

Seriously.

I mean, yes Labour is heading for electoral oblivion and yes, the result will be brutal and the worse for decades but perhaps, just perhaps it'll finally mean the end of the Corbyn experiment. The thought of watching Labour sink further down in the polls and spending the next two years seeing Corbyn destroy what is left of the Labour Party has been unbearable.

It'll hurt and it'll be shit on the night itself but it might mean the end of Corbyn comes sooner rather than later and there will be something left to salvage.

I wish I believed that, Lyco. I hope you are right. Not that Labour are wiped out. I would give anything to be wrong about that.

But I don't think it follows that if they are wiped out at the General Election then Corbyn will go. It seems to me that the type of people who voted him in, will not change tack for anything. They don't seem to care if Labour get decimated. All they seem to care about is the chance to deselect MP's who don't tick the box for supporting Corbyn and replace them with any brainless middle-class student with his tongue up John Mcdonnell's a'se.

I hope you are right but even if this does happen , I think they will just spray the blame in any direction, not learn from it and continue to disrespect the electorate. A lot of them are from quite well off backgrounds and have nothing or little to lose from the Tories being in power forever. As long as they get to wear their Che Guevarra t-shirts and feel like radicals in the meantime, the real world needn't penetrate.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Lyco on Apr 18, 2017, 11:20:55 PM
I think you're right that Corbyn will try and hold on but a fair few things are up the air at the moment.

Turnout is higher than usual for Unite's election. It's unlikely that Gerard Coyne will win but if he does, he'll immediately withdraw support for Corbyn and if it's tight and McClusky wins but with a much reduced vote then that will lower his support for Corbyn too. Which right now, might not make a difference but that, together with a bad showing at the locals and the inevitable election wipeout may mean he ends up with no choice but to go.  Don't underestimate the significance of the unions in this.

Plus. I just don't think that Corbyn would stay if there was hostility towards him in the membership and whilst there are plenty of hard core Cobynites, remember Owen Smith got 40% of the vote and he wasn't a standout candidate. I genuinely can't see Corbyn getting 60% on the back of electoral oblivion, particularly with Momentum having their own internal battles and union support (and therefore affiliated votes) wavering.

Plus, there will be another leadership contest and this time there might be a viable left choice like Lisa Nandy to contest him. I also wouldn't rule out Yvette Cooper either.

Lynton Crosby is running the Tory election campaign and it will be brutal because that's his style. If you think Corbyn and McDonnell have had a hard time from moderates and the PLP, I don't think we've seen anything like the hostility they'll get from the Tory election machine.

So yeah, I think all of the above will damage Corbyn irretrievably and I don't think his heart is in it now or he wants to be Prime Minster so a damaging election campaign on the back of probable poor local election results will mean he goes after a half hearted attempt to stay.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 18, 2017, 11:32:04 PM
I think you're right that Corbyn will try and hold on but a fair few things are up the air at the moment.

Turnout is higher than usual for Unite's election. It's unlikely that Gerard Coyne will win but if he does, he'll immediately withdraw support for Corbyn and if it's tight and McClusky wins but with a much reduced vote then that will lower his support for Corbyn too. Which right now, might not make a difference but that, together with a bad showing at the locals and the inevitable election wipeout may mean he ends up with no choice but to go.  Don't underestimate the significance of the unions in this.

Plus. I just don't think that Corbyn would stay if there was hostility towards him in the membership and whilst there are plenty of hard core Cobynites, remember Owen Smith got 40% of the vote and he wasn't a standout candidate. I genuinely can't see Corbyn getting 60% on the back of electoral oblivion, particularly with Momentum having their own internal battles and union support (and therefore affiliated votes) wavering.

Plus, there will be another leadership contest and this time there might be a viable left choice like Lisa Nandy to contest him. I also wouldn't rule out Yvette Cooper either.

Lynton Crosby is running the Tory election campaign and it will be brutal because that's his style. If you think Corbyn and McDonnell have had a hard time from moderates and the PLP, I don't think we've seen anything like the hostility they'll get from the Tory election machine.

So yeah, I think all of the above will damage Corbyn irretrievably and I don't think his heart is in it now or he wants to be Prime Minster so a damaging election campaign on the back of probable poor local election results will mean he goes after a half hearted attempt to stay.

God, I do hope you are right.

I don't think he ever wanted to be Prime Minister. I think he just always wanted the Labour Party to reflect his own image. Middle-class, jam making, wool-winding, pacifists with men keeping a gentle but firm hand on the tiller and women making the tea and quietly expressing devotion. All the while vehemently opposing capitalism in theory without ever having the means to do anything about it in practice.

But I do think his supporters unite in the face of adversity rather than self-reflect on why they are being opposed. So the Tory election machine will crank up the opposition to him being elected but give his supporters yet another excuse to blame and unify around the idea of the MSM rather than address why he is such easy fodder for the press when other less controversial candidates may have stood a much better chance.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Tired & Confused on Apr 19, 2017, 12:17:24 AM
I'll vote Labour, as usual.

Not voting Labour, for Labour supporters, is like not voting for Hillary.

Do we need more lessons?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 19, 2017, 12:31:20 AM
I'll vote Labour, as usual.

Not voting Labour, for Labour supporters, is like not voting for Hillary.

Do we need more lessons?

Who you vote for, is a matter for you.

Who I vote for is a matter for me.

The difference between me not voting Labour and US voters not voting for Hilary, is that I live in a constituency with a 26,000 Tory majority where my vote will make no difference at all. whereas votes for Hilary would have probably counted.

But then Hilary had a chance of actually winning. She won the popular vote.

For Corbyn to win, he has to win seats that Milliband didn't. And persuade voters that didn't vote Labour to switch to Labour.

So far he has managed to lose seats than even Milliband won, rather than win extra seats. And his supporters are reduced to trying to persuade life long Labour voters like me to still vote Labour.

So basically, we are fucked.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on Apr 19, 2017, 12:48:50 AM
^^ Tbf hardly anyone ever self-reflects on why they are being opposed.


I'm worried about what May's decision says about how Brexit's going.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 19, 2017, 12:54:33 AM
^^ Tbf hardly anyone ever self-reflects on why they are being opposed.

Almost every party traditionally hires political analysts to assess where they have dropped votes and why, so they can improve electorally.

I did 3 years of statistical political science myself. The arrogance of Corbynism is that they don't seem to care.

Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Tired & Confused on Apr 19, 2017, 12:56:23 AM
BCfb, if you live in the same constituency where you've previously voted Labour, notwithstanding the 26k Tory majority, the value of your vote is the same as it always was. What reason is there to vote differently now?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on Apr 19, 2017, 01:02:41 AM
^^ Tbf hardly anyone ever self-reflects on why they are being opposed.

Almost every party traditionally hires political analysts to assess where they have dropped votes and why, so they can improve electorally.

I did 3 years of statistical political science myself. The arrogance of Corbynism is that they don't seem to care.


Ah, i didn't realize you were talking about professionals 8)
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on Apr 19, 2017, 01:08:33 AM
I will vote Labour this time against Lady Macbeth Theresa Villiers.  I feel very black-and-white about it.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 19, 2017, 01:10:07 AM
BCfb, if you live in the same constituency where you've previously voted Labour, notwithstanding the 26k Tory majority, the value of your vote is the same as it always was. What reason is there to vote differently now?

I've previously stood in this constituency in the Milliband era as a Labour councillor. Its never had a Labour councillor before.

Prior to that I l lived in Jeremy Corbyn's constituency 4 or 5 times and voted for him as my MP. Before I moved there I voted Labour in a north-east constituency which is likely to now tip to UKIP because of Jeremy Corbyn's failure to speak to, respect and engage working class northerners.

I will never endorse the bullying that I have seen take place in the Labour movement since he was elected as leader, in any form. I do not believe for one minute, that his leadership either lends itself to the prospect of a future Labour government or is healthy for working class people in this country. So I will not be voting Labour. If there was any chance my vote would influence the outcome of the local or national vote - I would. But very reluctantly.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Tired & Confused on Apr 19, 2017, 01:46:20 AM
I understand what you're saying, southern working class voters have no more been engaged than northern ones.

I have no great liking for Corbyn and a lot less for some of his supporters but I still cannot find a good enough reason to vote for any other party. Withholding my useless-anyway-vote seems an empty gesture to me, although I'd agree, continuing to vote Labour when there isn't the faintest hope of success, is not that different.

I'm too sleepy to think about this properly but I wish it was possible to get away from the feel-good variety of politics because aren't they the reason we're in this mess?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 19, 2017, 06:21:51 AM
It's not an empty gesture to me because I strongly feel that I do not wish to endorse what Corbyn and his supporters have done to Labour. I also resent the idea that we somehow owe them our vote despite them denigrating us at every turn. If it meant the Tories got in because of it, I'd have to vote for them through gritted teeth but 26,000 Tory voters here mean that's not the case.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Trifle on Apr 19, 2017, 12:08:57 PM
^ I agree with you. However isn't that what those who voted for Corbyn as party leader would have said too? That they couldn't bring themselves to vote for a Labour candidate they felt was turning Labour into a more right wing party than they would like? And they didn't think it was a good enough argument to vote Labour just to keep the Tories out as they thought nothing would ever change if everyone always thought like that. Where does it all end for Labour I wonder.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: fetishkitty on Apr 19, 2017, 03:37:38 PM
May has called this election because she believes the papers. She believes that she will walk it and in doing so get a mandate for whatever kind of Brexit she pulls out of her @rse next. I hope it blows up in her face, big time.

I hope the electorate is smarter than she or anyone else thinks. I hope that people question the candidates and vote for anti-Brexit ones, whatever their party. There isn't time for a proper coalition to come together (this should have been happening since June 24th last year), but there is the opportunity for the people to speak, loud and clear. Now is the time for everyone who wants to halt this runaway train to oblivion to stand up and shout. Loudly. Show the establishment, once again, that polls, and traditional news media and everyone else has got it wrong. Only this time, instead of it meaning that Trump and Brexit and all the other sh*t wins, let it mean that sense prevails.

Most of all, we need to galvanise the 18-24 vote. This is most assuredly their future in the balance.

It isn't another referendum....but it could be the gateway to another referendum. A legitimate gateway. The Mail et al can't call it 'undemocratic' if it comes after an election where pro-Remain candidates are clearly more successful than pro-Brexit ones.

This is my fervent hope. And I'm going to be banging on about it everywhere and to everyone, in the vain hope that it gets somewhere.

kitty
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Tired & Confused on Apr 19, 2017, 03:39:31 PM
^^I think if traditional Labour voters don't vote Labour it will be the end of the Labour Party.

I don't think something better is going to rise from the ashes. I think there will be endless crowing from the right wing press and whatever high handed measures May wants to implement will be seen to have received a mandate. We will lose the vocabulary of social justice because we will have no practical examples of it. It will become nothing but a game for academia and the privileged. If Brexit is something shameful to explain to the people who will inherit it, how much worse will be the collapse of the Labour Party?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Xof the Elder on Apr 19, 2017, 09:03:34 PM
I find Theresa May really repulsive. Not just her politics - but her mouth and expressions - so pompous and smug. Bleurgh - I wouldn't.

Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Marty on Apr 19, 2017, 10:41:00 PM
I am not keen on her legs....  :P
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Artist on Apr 19, 2017, 10:52:14 PM
She changed her mind about election in good time for her and it will work for her.
Her enemy is more divided, more than ever before. She is playing easy chess game - Checkmate.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Xof the Elder on Apr 20, 2017, 12:17:31 PM
I am not keen on her legs....  :P

I haven't thought about her legs! :D

Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: cigarettes and matches on Apr 20, 2017, 12:20:20 PM
She is revolting full stop
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 20, 2017, 03:39:10 PM
Sturgeon would probably win it if we are going on pins alone.

Maybe that's our best hope. Ask for it to be judged on Leader's legs and hope we end up being a satellite state of Scotland.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Xof the Elder on Apr 20, 2017, 09:17:21 PM
Sturgeon? She's well stumpy! Best legs in politics? Wow - that's though

Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 20, 2017, 09:35:32 PM
Have you seen the infamous Daily Mail front page on this, Fox?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Xof the Elder on Apr 20, 2017, 09:53:52 PM
Have you seen the infamous Daily Mail front page on this, Fox?

You talking to me? Or the real Fox?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 20, 2017, 09:59:06 PM
You.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Xof the Elder on Apr 20, 2017, 10:13:09 PM
I haven't seen it!
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: cigarettes and matches on Apr 20, 2017, 10:14:52 PM
For a minute I thought Fox was back  :-\
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Xof the Elder on Apr 20, 2017, 10:15:51 PM
For a minute I thought Fox was back  :-\

How do you know she isn't?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: cigarettes and matches on Apr 20, 2017, 10:52:10 PM
I don't
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Xof the Elder on Apr 20, 2017, 10:58:34 PM
I don't

I see
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 21, 2017, 11:21:26 AM
Sitting back and watching in despair as the main pro-Labour meme being distributed on Facebook is the "If you think Jeremy Corbyn is a loser than you've been brainwashed" one.

When will these dicks realise that even if it were true, that telling people they are unenlightened and just too thick to work it all out - doesn't work. It doesn't win votes.

It doesn't draw them in, it doesn't deal with those niggling concerns and it just makes them feel talked down to and sometimes sneered at, rather than respected.

The "We know better than you what you should and shouldn't be concerned about" campaign didn't work for REMAIN. Why won't Team Corbyn give themselves half a chance and just learn from their previous mistakes.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Sorted. on Apr 21, 2017, 06:42:18 PM
Do you remember when I was so excited about Jeremy Corbyn and even more excited that my mum's tiny little Labour Club  in rural NWales, in a wave of Corbynmania, had been swelled with deflecting Plaiders? This was it..Wales would be Labour once more as it should be.

Well they've all gone back to Leanne Wood's Plaid..taking my mother and two others with them.  Labour lunches are no more.  :'(

We are Bevans, dammit!
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 21, 2017, 08:13:56 PM
Heartbreaking, Sorted.

My mum was a Labour councillor. Now hers and half the solidly Labour council seats are occupied by UKIP. This is in the so-called Labour heartlands.

Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Sorted. on Apr 21, 2017, 08:21:37 PM
Ah well at least its not UKIP.

Plaid do well generally in our neck of the woods but they're set to do VERY well out of this one.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Medusa on Apr 22, 2017, 07:30:08 PM
I am told that word from on high in the Party is that members are asked not to discuss the upcoming election in negative, defeatist terms. I suppose there might be some point to this edict so I am trying to respect it, even if it feels a bit like 'clap your hands really quickly if you believe in fairies'.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Sorted. on Apr 22, 2017, 07:40:47 PM
Yes I've been trying really hard not to go off on one on Twitter this week.

If you can't say something nice and all that.   
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Pomegranate on Apr 22, 2017, 07:53:11 PM
I will be voting Conservative.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Amber on Apr 22, 2017, 09:21:37 PM
Middle son will be voting for the first time, but the election is right in the middle of A levels so he won't really have time to pay much attention to the campaigns  >:(
He is however aware of Jeremy Corbyn's pledge to scrap uni tuition fees and reinstate the maintenance grant, so that will hopefully sway him in the right direction  :D
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on Apr 22, 2017, 11:10:09 PM
I will be voting Conservative.
How come?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Pomegranate on Apr 23, 2017, 07:08:13 PM
Middle son will be voting for the first time, but the election is right in the middle of A levels so he won't really have time to pay much attention to the campaigns  >:(
He is however aware of Jeremy Corbyn's pledge to scrap uni tuition fees and reinstate the maintenance grant, so that will hopefully sway him in the right direction  :D

Can Mr Corbyn please explain how these grants will be covered? Last week he was promising free school meals for all primary school children. He stated that he would place a 20% tax on private school fees to pay for this. I wonder how he"ll then fund the additional state school places required after parents have had to remove their children from private schools due to Corbyn's virtue signalling tax.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Pomegranate on Apr 23, 2017, 07:22:16 PM
I will be voting Conservative.
How come?


To give the Conservatives a bigger majority and ensure that Brexit is pushed through once and for all. There is no soft/hard Brexit. Let me make it clear that Brexit means a complete exit of the EU that is what Leave voters voted for.



Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 23, 2017, 07:24:53 PM
Oh dear. It must be absolutely terrifying to you to imagine a world where all children have fair access to education and are all on a level playing field regardless of how much unearned wealth their parents inherited  ;D

Scared you'll start sliding down the greasy pole?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Amber on Apr 23, 2017, 07:27:32 PM
I don't know the answer to that, but I do know that the way the current scheme works, most graduates will never pay off their full student loans and they will be cancelled after 30 years, so it is a ridiculous system.
My son is embarking on a 3 (possibly 4) year course...the tuition fees are £9250.00 per year and he is entitled to the higher rate maintenance loan of approx £9000.00 per year due to my low income as a single parent. (His older brother was lucky enough to receive half of this as a grant and half as a loan but this has changed this year.) As the system currently stands he will start to repay this as a percentage when his earnings are above £21,000. If he is an average earner throughout his life, he will most likely only ever repay £23,000 of his loans. Martin Lewis explains this better than I will be able to, if anyone is interested.
My point is, it is a ridiculous system, which is failing as it is. Jeremy Corbyn's plan will take away the worry from so many low income families and families who worry about 'debt', without impacting much on the bottom line.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on Apr 23, 2017, 09:21:43 PM
Let me make it clear that Brexit means a complete exit of the EU that is what Leave voters voted for.

You are not a dictator. You are only qualified to say what *you* voted for or wanted it to mean.  I heard Daniel Hannan and friends babbling on pre-June 23 and nobody even outlined what Leave meant let alone agreed.

So is Switzerland in the EU?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on Apr 23, 2017, 09:28:20 PM
Also, you are aware of the theory that May wants a bigger majority to have the leeway within her own party to finagle a softer/less complete Brexit, yah?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Artist on Apr 23, 2017, 10:09:51 PM
I don't know the answer to that, but I do know that the way the current scheme works, most graduates will never pay off their full student loans and they will be cancelled after 30 years, so it is a ridiculous system.
My son is embarking on a 3 (possibly 4) year course...the tuition fees are £9250.00 per year and he is entitled to the higher rate maintenance loan of approx £9000.00 per year due to my low income as a single parent. (His older brother was lucky enough to receive half of this as a grant and half as a loan but this has changed this year.) As the system currently stands he will start to repay this as a percentage when his earnings are above £21,000. If he is an average earner throughout his life, he will most likely only ever repay £23,000 of his loans. Martin Lewis explains this better than I will be able to, if anyone is interested.
My point is, it is a ridiculous system, which is failing as it is. Jeremy Corbyn's plan will take away the worry from so many low income families and families who worry about 'debt', without impacting much on the bottom line.

^Agreed
People should support Labour now. Even if they don't like many things about them, it will just make everything worse if people decide not to vote or divide votes to different parties.
At least I know who will I vote for.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on Apr 24, 2017, 07:34:12 PM
Sorry @Pomegranate I had initially intended to keep things civil.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on May 03, 2017, 11:23:14 PM
Why did Brussels leak the €100bn figure now?  How will it do anything other than increase May's votes?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Tired & Confused on May 03, 2017, 11:49:17 PM
^If that's what it'll do, maybe that's what they want.

Supposing we actually got Corbyn, things wouldn't be too bad (or not as bad as they will be with May) and might encourage more exits.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on May 04, 2017, 01:06:31 AM
The EU would *mince* Corbyn.  They are professional outfoxers who would  be running rings around him before he'd even found his biro.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Tired & Confused on May 04, 2017, 01:55:49 AM
Wouldn't anyone 'mince' Corbyn?

But still, the impact of Brexit for the UK under him would not feel nearly as bad as it's going to feel under May. We have to be punished, as an example of what happens when the main protector of workers' rights no longer has any force. If they could foist an @rsehole like Trump on us they would because then it'd be super sh!t but May is the best worst option available.

We have all, collectively, just said up yours which has to be made to look like a really stupid choice which it might not look like if we exited, got Corbyn and all UK students got free uni tuition, etc. Then it might look like we'd saved a ton of money and were spending it properly, on us. Under May of course, there's no risk of any of that happening and it will be sh!t, sh!ttier and well and truly utterly sh!te.
 
The UK Remain vote wasn't exactly morally kosher, turning a blind eye to Greece out of fear for our own skins at the hands of a right wing government is probably not confined to the UK. There'll be other countries with similar morally questionable reasons for their Europhilism. They have to be shown what kind of d!ckheads with power unfettered by the EU, they'll end up with if they dare to do what the UK has done.

Imagine how it'd look if the UK, out of the whole EU, had the best public transport system, modern trains running on time, no over crowding, no selling season tickets for more seats than are available, no massaging of arrival times, affordable fares. If we reverted to England's green and pleasant land and gave students a maintenance grant, and didn't charge them for tuition. If our hospitals ran like a well oiled machine and anyone who got sick could rely on getting treatment without having to run the gauntlet of GPs bent on avoiding making costly referrals, etc, etc. If it was all actually quite nice and the UK was on course to become somewhere civilized, there'd be other defections.

I'm making this up at nearly 2am so if there's a good reason why it's all wrong, I'd quite like to know but since Brexit and since Trump, I'm trying to take the most jaundiced view of everything in an attempt to avoid disappointment.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on May 05, 2017, 01:03:48 AM
Imagine how it'd look if the UK, out of the whole EU, had the best public transport system, modern trains running on time, no over crowding, no selling season tickets for more seats than are available, no massaging of arrival times, affordable fares. If we reverted to England's green and pleasant land and gave students a maintenance grant, and didn't charge them for tuition. If our hospitals ran like a well oiled machine and anyone who got sick could rely on getting treatment without having to run the gauntlet of GPs bent on avoiding making costly referrals, etc, etc. If it was all actually quite nice and the UK was on course to become somewhere civilized, there'd be other defections.

I'm making this up at nearly 2am so if there's a good reason why it's all wrong, I'd quite like to know but since Brexit and since Trump, I'm trying to take the most jaundiced view of everything in an attempt to avoid disappointment.

I'm not sure I follow…  you're suggesting the EU intervened because there is a real danger of Corbyn turning Britain into a better place?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 08, 2017, 09:35:26 AM
Watching without surprise but with distaste as the ire of Corbynites turns onto the electorate for being biased against Corbyn.

Quotes from a debate with some of them yesterday on the wisdom of calling working class and ordinary people stupid  as an election strategy :

Mr X : "Well they are stupid"

MR. B "Well, you present them with facts and evidence and that doesn't seem to work so what else is there to do but call them stupid?"

Mr. D "Its not our fault people are choosing to be stupid. If I'm going to loose either way, I might as well call someone a cunt, when they are being one."

Mr A : Ordinary people are more interested in waving biscuit tins of pastoral English villages that never really looked like that and muttering vague accusations about foreigners than listening to anything meaningful"

Mr. Y "I'm not responsible for their stupidity and I will not baby my working class peers to spare their feelings."

MR. W "Instead of listening to facts and experts they cling onto their own worldviews regardless".

And meanwhile, the Tories make more and more gains.

Whenever socialism has made huge gains and brought about positive change in the world it was because the impetus and the conviction to do so came from the people themselves. Socialism cannot be dragged uphill from the top down. It cannot be imposed by people who think they know better on to people who are not convinced. It cannot be barked at a populace from a jargonistic minority at the head of a political party. It has to be a groundswell from below. That's how we got the NHS.

The peoples trust in big, collective solutions needs to restored before they will vote for socialism. It has been systematically and deliberately wrecked and undermined by the right wing. The "deficit" had been carried for years by all parties in pretty much all countries. Yet the Tories chose to whistle-blow it and frame it a number one problem as if it was a left wing phenomenon. Same with the expenses scandal. The EU was skillfully framed as being all about waste and politicians abusing the system leading to the LEAVE victory. The same narrative (hate that word) is being spun around the NHS but with greedy administrators replacing greedy politicians. People will more easily trust a fable that rests on human greed than human co-operation. That's why the right have an advantage.

I hope against all hope that there isn't a Tory landslide but if there is, for the left to stand any chance of helping ordinary people, they have got to stop preaching to them and start harnessing their concerns and natural instincts as a force for change in a collective, positive way rather than a reason to hate on them and label them stupid.

Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on May 08, 2017, 10:09:01 AM
https://mobile.twitter.com/TheOnion/status/859437833945194500
Trump Voter Feels Betrayed By President After Reading 800 Pages Of Queer Feminist Theory
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 08, 2017, 10:34:20 AM
 :D lol.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Trifle on May 09, 2017, 09:31:53 AM
^  ;D

The Tories must have been glad to hear that Corbyn is staying leader regardless of the election result.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on May 09, 2017, 09:34:50 AM
Say what?!!
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on May 09, 2017, 09:47:20 AM
Ohh….
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Artist on May 09, 2017, 01:00:51 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0M91g4OlGEY

Jonathan Pie - Strong & Unstable
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 09, 2017, 11:49:25 PM
^  ;D

The Tories must have been glad to hear that Corbyn is staying leader regardless of the election result.

Indeed.

It didn't surprise me one bit to hear that. I was reminded by Facebook memories today that before Corbyn even stood for election, I posted on there that it was evident that there had been a big swing to the right and people calling for the Labour Party to respond by moving to the left were simply going to ensure that the next Tory Government had an ever bigger majority and would find it easier to pass more reaching legislation. So all the things that were on the backburner because they might not get them straight through Parliament would sail through once they had a bigger majority - apart from the obvious ongoing benefits cuts it would be swift repeal of the Human Rights Act, decimate the NHS and put a stake through its heart, bring back fox hunting etc.

And that's what will happen unless there is something akin to divine intervention,  I reckon.

I still do not believe that either Corbyn or most of his supporters ever genuinely believed that he could win a General Election. I still believe they just wanted control of the Labour Party so there was something in mainstream politics that reflected their ideological image back at them regardless of whether it was politically effectual and that tragically nullified the only powerbase that could stop or slow the Tory rampage down.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Trifle on May 12, 2017, 09:43:33 AM
It didn't surprise me much either, Betty.

I haven't spoken to many Corbyn supporters but the ones I have had a perception that lots of people who had lost confidence in Labour before Corbyn arrived will be galvanised to vote for him. When I pointed out some challenges to this idea, for instance thousands turning up at a rally isn't anywhere near enough to change anything, and your points re a swing to the right, they didn't seem aware of those arguments. Anyway, that was a sample of about 5, so I can't draw many conclusions from that. But yes, from what I have observed in the wider context, your explanation re an ideological reflection sounds a pretty plausible idea to me.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 12, 2017, 11:44:01 AM
Yes, I've seen arguments on Facebook even yesterday saying "How can people say he is unelectable and yet has won two leadership elections?"

I can't even conceive of the mentality you would need to have to think that being elected by 500,000 highly motivated lefties being shephered by an organisation like Momentum which has unexplained endless resources at its command, with being elected by a country with over 46 million voters who with the exception of Tony Blair and one Tory-led coalition, has voted in the Conservatives at every election in the last 38 years.

Lets do that comparison again :

500,000 people versus 46 million people.


You would have to be Diane Abbott's maths teacher to think this scenario is comparable.

I like the Labour Party manifesto. There is nothing in it I wouldn't personally grab with both hands. Despite my contempt for what Corbynism has done to the Labour Party talent pool I do genuinely hope the British public vote for it.

I wish my beliefs were representative of the rest of the country but time and time again I go to vote and my Tory MP gets over a 20,000 vote majority. That's the reality that Corbyn has not even tried to tackle head on.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Goblin Flump on May 12, 2017, 12:25:57 PM
Found a tactical voting to get rid of the Tories thing.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19_yf4RL133fBKscvSbID4eRKwztzY9KSI_2BMaI1bU8/htmlview?sle=true#gid=0
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on May 12, 2017, 08:25:24 PM
The f*cking "galvanisation".
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Musette on May 14, 2017, 10:32:23 AM
My brother thinks I am verging on Communist and I am the political 'black sheep' of the family.
The other day he said he voted Conservative because he's on the side of 'low taxes and hard work'.
Then on Friday he told me about a minor accident his daughter had and that they had to go to A&E.
He was full of praise for the treatment they received.
I said, "So what you're voting for is for poor people not to have access to that."
Him: "Errr..."
Me: "You think that because someone has less money than you, for whatever reason, they don't deserve that care?"
Him: "Ummmm....."
Me: "Really? What the fvck?!"
Him: "You're right, I'd never thought of it like that."

I have opened his eyes on many issues recently, but this might have been the most significant one.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Sorted. on May 15, 2017, 07:36:22 PM
Andrew effing Murray.

It's actual sabotage.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 15, 2017, 09:27:06 PM
Andrew effing Murray.

It's actual sabotage.

It won't be far off before they bring out a SIMS style election game based on Corbyn.

"With a General Election only weeks away, with your opponent already 17-20 points ahead, you will announce a Head of Election Strategy who has publically supported North Korea"

Thereby potentially alienating everyone who isn't a member of Kim Jong-un's immediate family, and in fact, even some of them.

You couldn't make it up.

You will also undermine any potential criticism of the neopotism of Donald Trump and Kim Jong-un by having your 25 year old son, Sebastian, employed as Chief of Staff to the Shadow Treasurer. He obviously was just the most experienced person in the entire party for this position. Like Ivanka Trump was.

It is interesting that Corbyn's close friend and supporter Paul Mason recently had his complaint dismissed as unfounded when he moaned about being taped on what turns out to be an ordinary camara phone in a public space, stating that "Jeremy Corbyn does not appeal to Working Class people and has no cultural references to how they live."

This is the man who used his huge media presence to whip up witchhunts for deselection of any candidate who did not visibly support Corbyn, the sort of candidate who did nothing wrong other than question whether Corbyn appealed to working class people, who were crucial to a Labour victory.

And yet I and many, many other lifelong Labour voters have been called a Tory, Red Labour, Blairite etc for making the same statement as he did.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on May 16, 2017, 05:46:04 AM
https://life.spectator.co.uk/2016/11/greece-word-paul-mason-labour/
"The only people [Corbyn] ever listens to are his sons, Seumas and the old guys he’s known for years."

Which is kind of sweet, sort of.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 16, 2017, 10:43:26 AM
https://life.spectator.co.uk/2016/11/greece-word-paul-mason-labour/
"The only people [Corbyn] ever listens to are his sons, Seumas and the old guys he’s known for years."

Which is kind of sweet, sort of.

If you're running a sweet shop not a political party.

The way Paul Mason downgrades his own Mother from the Headmistress she was to "school teacher" so that he looks more "street" is laughable. Poor women, demoted for her son's left wing credibility.

It's the sheer dishonesty from start to finish that I can't stand. It's ok for him to say it and believe it but anyone else saying it will be bullied out of the party. Whilst continuing to say that Corbyn will win the election some of his supporters on my FB are blatantly displaying on their cover photos, the name of the woman they are trying to replace him with if he stands down because of a bad result in the election. Why they are so frantic about the need to unite around a different candidate at this moment in time whilst publically asserting Corbyn's electoral infallibility, tells its own story.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on May 16, 2017, 10:53:17 AM
Lisa Nandy?

Owen Jones said in August 2015, "If you’re part of a movement that faces almost universal hostility from an Establishment you reject — in the political, media, and political world — it’s easy to become very defensive indeed. You feel like you’re under daily attack. Your positivity is sapped away, and you lash out, failing to differentiate between the sceptical and the critical and the militantly hostile. You risk becoming suspicious of anyone who is not already a signed up believer, and fail to be able to convince those who might be persuaded but have reservations."

I think that explains why only insiders can criticise.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 16, 2017, 11:24:18 AM
It's because they are on a power trip to turn the Labour Party from what it properly is and always has been, a broad based, pluralistic movement concerned with social justice and the redistribution of economic resources with Parliamentary power as its aim, into simply a host body for an essentially undemocratic parasitic entity that doesn't allow any form of dissent or political expression that doesn't come from the top. It doesn't care if it kills the host body because many of its supporters had no connection or loyalty to it anyway.

The substantive political beliefs are often no different between Labour Party members and Cult Corbyn supporters. It's how things are done that separates them. Corbyn was tolerated for years as part of the pluralism. But he won't tolerate anyone who doesn't agree with him.

It's ironic that the three people who self righteously try to lecture me most that I am a Tory if I don't vote for Labour at the general election because of the need for a pragmatic response to defeat a vicious right wing government, all voted Green "out of principle" at the last election - when I was out campaigning for Labour - even though I didn't like some of the policies - out of pragmatism, to fight a vicious right wing government. Total hypocrites. Social media preachers to the already converted who've never jammed a leaflet through a rusty letterbox in 20 years. While I'm still getting my political hands dirty arguing with working class people I grew up with to dissuade them from forming lynch mobs to round up innocent Muslims.

Owen Jones has been brave enough to stand up and face the moronic flak received by anyone who questons Corbyn's popularity with the electorate (and he is an insider - isn't he supposed to be allowed to convey his concerns without getting death threats?) But he has also got dirty hands when it comes to the destruction of the party. And I don't just mean dancing around on election night 2015, mocking Ed Miliband. So I read that explanation by him with that in mind.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Sorted. on May 16, 2017, 07:31:33 PM
Mccluskey announced today that 200 seats would be a success.  WTF.  That's a diastater, He then added that h didn't expect Labour to win.   

The main 'fight' is still with  these mythical Blairites who need to 'go and vote Tory' ...the country can wallow in Toryism for ever as long as we keep Jeremy.



Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 16, 2017, 07:37:22 PM
Mccluskey announced today that 200 seats would be a success.  WTF.  That's a diastater, He then added that h didn't expect Labour to win.   

The main 'fight' is still with  these mythical Blairites who need to 'go and vote Tory' ...the country can wallow in Toryism for ever as long as we keep Jeremy.

Is Corbyn's Labour the first political party in history to ask people not to vote for it and see it as a sign of success when they don't?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Sorted. on May 16, 2017, 07:51:19 PM
200 seats would be the worst result since 1935. 
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 16, 2017, 08:01:47 PM
200 seats would be the worst result since 1935.

Yes. But they won't get rid of him. Because they don't care about the Tories running rampage with an 80 seat majority -  an estimated 62 seat gain over Labour more than they got over Miliband.

Is all about egomaniacs painting themselves into a corner and refusing to admit they were wrong or they lied about his capacity to win.

And the excuse McCluskey gives? The press are not fair to Jeremy.

Well at what point exactly did you expect them to be fair to him, Len?

Before he was elected leader?

After the first time he was elected and they criticised him daily?

Did you think that was going to change when you reelected him?

Did you think they were going to get nicer as the general election approached?

Did you ever say "Yes Corbyn can be the next Prime Minister but only if the press are nice to him?"

Disingenuous arses.


Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Sorted. on May 16, 2017, 09:01:05 PM
Meanwhile, he's using 4.5 million of his members money to fund a campaign he doesn't believe in.  Nice one, Len.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Tired & Confused on May 16, 2017, 11:08:03 PM
At the local level hardly anyone mentions (to borrow a phrase) "the situation". On Sunday, when
 the IRA stuff came out, I was out canvassing in an army town and it didn't come up on the doorstep. We're wearing out our trainers for our constituency candidate and doing battle with the leaflet folding machine. I'm assuming it's similar elsewhere.

Also, Brexit seems to have had an unexpected positive effect in politicizing people who weren't previously interested, although otoh, I think if the whole GE could be run like Eurovision it'd be more efficient and the outcome might not be any different.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Earl on May 16, 2017, 11:39:33 PM
Labour Party Maifesto (condensed into short bullet points)
https://mobile.twitter.com/LabourEoin/status/864553700743938048/photo/1
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Earl on May 16, 2017, 11:46:34 PM
Tired and Confused, it's great being out and about and involved, isn't it? I'm sure everybody here is doing their bit, too...it'll be modesty forbids them saying so.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Meryl Streep Fan Club on May 16, 2017, 11:50:34 PM
Labour Party Maifesto (condensed into short bullet points)
https://mobile.twitter.com/LabourEoin/status/864553700743938048/photo/1

And all engraved on a grain of sand
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Tired & Confused on May 17, 2017, 12:03:21 AM
Earl, yes, it's good to be doing something practical but it does make me wonder who is most representative because most of the other volunteers I'm working with wouldn't really be interested in these discussions about the internal politics of the LP. They're just people like me who would like their neighbours to vote Labour and will door knock and leaflet in the hope of persuading some. This is in a constituency that's been Tory for forever so we don't actually think there's much chance of making more than an incremental change but it still beats not doing anything. Or to be blunt, every time leftwing people go on about how awful the LP and/or Corbyn is, I wish they'd not do it on social media, like this message board because it incrementally creates the thing they say they don't want. Go and leaflet and smile till your face aches.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 17, 2017, 12:30:33 AM
I have to laugh at that, Tired and Confused because firstly Earl was not doing anything practical for Labour in 2015 having joined afterwards with the new Corbynites. I was out there leafleting and campaigning then. We had the vicious Tory government to defeat by any means necessary back then too. When the Greens, the Lib Dems, the SWP etc who largely now make up a lot of Corbyns support were chucking spears at Labour which was the one party who could have defeated the Tories.

Go back on this very board and check the election threads in 2015 and you will see Corbynites when they were loyal to their old parties, taking the p'ss out of Ed Milibands nasal passages and bacon sandwich face. And now they are all about it not being about personalities and media presentation and making out Corbyn is the first politician to suffer press bias over trivialities. Oh and we must cast out principles and put our doubts aside to defeat the Tories. Well, why didn't they do that in 2015?

I'm sorry for your aching feet and I've been there and done that before I was labelled a Tory by my own party for simply wanting a credible candidate to put us in power and deliver a Labour Goverment rather than p"ss in the wind. And with respect, the people out their canvassing with you are representative of the people who are happy to work with the current leadership. So people like me are not visible in that scenario. Or my partner, another working class, lifelong Labour Party member who still pays her fees but the Corbyn controlled new administration of the CLP simply stopped including in
correspondence and invitations to meetings simply because she is known to be quietly anti-Corbyn.

You flatter me and Gingerbeer's current audience if you think exposure to my posts will effect the millions of votes that Labour need to win an election. I owe the current leadership nothing. Especially not my silence. The only positive thing for Labour if it loses as badly as predicted is to own where it went wrong including alienating people like me - it's normally lifelong guaranteed support. But I see no signs of that happening. And because of that I will keep stating my viewpoint as you can state yours.



Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on May 17, 2017, 04:21:45 AM
Earl, yes, it's good to be doing something practical but it does make me wonder who is most representative because most of the other volunteers I'm working with wouldn't really be interested in these discussions about the internal politics of the LP. They're just people like me who would like their neighbours to vote Labour and will door knock and leaflet in the hope of persuading some. This is in a constituency that's been Tory for forever so we don't actually think there's much chance of making more than an incremental change but it still beats not doing anything. Or to be blunt, every time leftwing people go on about how awful the LP and/or Corbyn is, I wish they'd not do it on social media, like this message board because it incrementally creates the thing they say they don't want. Go and leaflet and smile till your face aches.

Yes T&C except a year or two ago leftwing people were telling Betty and Sorted that anyone who's ever once voted Conservative is irredeemable scum and Labour doesn't want their vote.  That sort of thinking is the seed of genocides, never mind losing elections.

As for the reality of JC, I am voting Labour because NHS, welfare etc. but I wonder whether a Jeremy Corbyn premiership wouldn't hammer a stake through Labour's heart more effectively than a Tory victory.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Sorted. on May 17, 2017, 06:14:15 AM
FYI i've been out at weekend canvassing and leafleting for Labour. As i have done for many years.   For my MP and my party..Not for Corbyn.  Most people I have spoken to on the doorstep, if they arent voting for Theresa, will say 'for my MP not for Corbyn'   Incidentally, the Corbyn fan base want the Labour MP gone.  We've been battling them for ages.  They're mostly not out canvassing.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 17, 2017, 08:21:25 AM
Thanks Wolfie. Spot on.

And you'd have trouble finding someone who is trying every which way to be practical to help Labour more than Sorted.

The extent to which everyone can chip is different depending on their constituency. Mine is a 26,000 Tory majority. My current CLP is entirely run by Corbynites most less than two years into joining. They send out Momentum stuff targeting and naming anyone who isn't loyal to Corbyn despite members repeatedly saying they don't want to receive material from third party organisations criticising Labour members. People who complain are laughed at and mocked in official minutes. Everyone from our Chair, parliamentary candidate, treasurer, secretary, membership secretary, womens officer, LGBT officer resigned on mass because of the intimidation. And they were never even asked their politics. The new regime simply wanted its own representatives in positions of power and their only crime was to not have been to the meeting that they have before the official meeting. At election time in 2015 they were spending the vast majority of their free time "doing something practical to get the Tories out." Then they were told they were Tories and they should just leave.

Not everyone's constituency will be as bad as mine.

But I do wonder how I am going to damage the parties chances of winning incrementally by saying on here that I want people to vote for Labour but there are also problems in the party. Whereas Len McCluskey, can announce via the press that Labour are unlikely  to win and a loss by 63 seats, a Tory majority of 80, our worst result since 1935, would be a good result. Why isn't he being criticised for having that effect? I feel there is a big element of people getting their excuses in early.

Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Tired & Confused on May 19, 2017, 10:59:59 PM
The extent to which everyone can chip is different depending on their constituency.

Probably, but they could put up a poster, like I have (A3 size) and like my neighbour has when he saw mine and said he wanted one. If we had more time, the whole street might have posters.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 21, 2017, 12:19:59 PM
But all that's happened is that he now knows you were planning to vote Labour and you now know he was planning to vote Labour. Nobody who wasn't planning to vote Labour is now voting for them. And that is what needed to happen on a large scale for Labour to win. I don't think many people exist who weren't persuaded who to vote for and simply saw a sign in someone's window saying "Vote Labour" and thought "Ok. I will then." I know how most of the people in my street are voting because I've spoken to them - 18 Tories, 3 Lib Dems, 2 UKIP and 6 including us abstaining. If I put a "Vote Labour" poster in my window given how right wing the community is, given the 25,000 plus Tory majority, it'll probably prompt a few otherwise too complacent to need to vote Tories, to bother to turn out to vote Conservative.

And by the the way, the "We support Jeremy Corbyn" FB page is urging people not to vote tactically to get the Tories out but to vote Labour even where the Lib Dems or Greens have the better chance because apparently "every vote for Labour is a vote for Corbyn's leadership."  which is the exact opposite of what we are being told publically by Corbynites - i.e. Vote Labour to get the Tories out whether you like Corbynism or not. It's all so disingenuous.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Tired & Confused on May 21, 2017, 10:43:54 PM
I live in a very densely populated area that traditionally votes Labour. Reminding Labour voters to vote seems a good idea.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Artist on May 22, 2017, 09:10:15 PM
I have just seen this and wanted to share.

Poem by Agnes Török on the news of a new Conservative budget
Based on experiences of living in Britain under austerity as a young, queer, unemployed, female immigrant student - and not taking it any more.
https://youtu.be/kiaxHUFAWew