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Worksafe => Discussion, Chat and Gossip => Topic started by: Wolfgang on Apr 18, 2017, 07:01:26 PM

Title: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on Apr 18, 2017, 07:01:26 PM
Because if we can't muster a thread about this…
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Trifle on Apr 18, 2017, 07:28:36 PM
I'm worried Labour will be obliterated.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 18, 2017, 09:11:13 PM
They will, unfortunately.

Voted Labour my entire life.

Not this time though.

It really saddens me to see the party brought to its knees by the current leadership.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Trifle on Apr 18, 2017, 09:48:24 PM
Indeed.  :-\

And if Scotland becomes independent it will be very hard for Labour to gain power again in the future. Things are looking pretty bleak.

I've no idea who I'll vote for.

Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Lyco on Apr 18, 2017, 09:50:45 PM
I'm relieved. So so relieved.

Seriously.

I mean, yes Labour is heading for electoral oblivion and yes, the result will be brutal and the worse for decades but perhaps, just perhaps it'll finally mean the end of the Corbyn experiment. The thought of watching Labour sink further down in the polls and spending the next two years seeing Corbyn destroy what is left of the Labour Party has been unbearable.

It'll hurt and it'll be shit on the night itself but it might mean the end of Corbyn comes sooner rather than later and there will be something left to salvage.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Trifle on Apr 18, 2017, 10:15:18 PM
I hear what you're saying. Who will replace him though. Not that long ago he was voted back in as the leader despite it looking like he was unelectable.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 18, 2017, 10:29:31 PM
I'm relieved. So so relieved.

Seriously.

I mean, yes Labour is heading for electoral oblivion and yes, the result will be brutal and the worse for decades but perhaps, just perhaps it'll finally mean the end of the Corbyn experiment. The thought of watching Labour sink further down in the polls and spending the next two years seeing Corbyn destroy what is left of the Labour Party has been unbearable.

It'll hurt and it'll be shit on the night itself but it might mean the end of Corbyn comes sooner rather than later and there will be something left to salvage.

I wish I believed that, Lyco. I hope you are right. Not that Labour are wiped out. I would give anything to be wrong about that.

But I don't think it follows that if they are wiped out at the General Election then Corbyn will go. It seems to me that the type of people who voted him in, will not change tack for anything. They don't seem to care if Labour get decimated. All they seem to care about is the chance to deselect MP's who don't tick the box for supporting Corbyn and replace them with any brainless middle-class student with his tongue up John Mcdonnell's a'se.

I hope you are right but even if this does happen , I think they will just spray the blame in any direction, not learn from it and continue to disrespect the electorate. A lot of them are from quite well off backgrounds and have nothing or little to lose from the Tories being in power forever. As long as they get to wear their Che Guevarra t-shirts and feel like radicals in the meantime, the real world needn't penetrate.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Lyco on Apr 18, 2017, 11:20:55 PM
I think you're right that Corbyn will try and hold on but a fair few things are up the air at the moment.

Turnout is higher than usual for Unite's election. It's unlikely that Gerard Coyne will win but if he does, he'll immediately withdraw support for Corbyn and if it's tight and McClusky wins but with a much reduced vote then that will lower his support for Corbyn too. Which right now, might not make a difference but that, together with a bad showing at the locals and the inevitable election wipeout may mean he ends up with no choice but to go.  Don't underestimate the significance of the unions in this.

Plus. I just don't think that Corbyn would stay if there was hostility towards him in the membership and whilst there are plenty of hard core Cobynites, remember Owen Smith got 40% of the vote and he wasn't a standout candidate. I genuinely can't see Corbyn getting 60% on the back of electoral oblivion, particularly with Momentum having their own internal battles and union support (and therefore affiliated votes) wavering.

Plus, there will be another leadership contest and this time there might be a viable left choice like Lisa Nandy to contest him. I also wouldn't rule out Yvette Cooper either.

Lynton Crosby is running the Tory election campaign and it will be brutal because that's his style. If you think Corbyn and McDonnell have had a hard time from moderates and the PLP, I don't think we've seen anything like the hostility they'll get from the Tory election machine.

So yeah, I think all of the above will damage Corbyn irretrievably and I don't think his heart is in it now or he wants to be Prime Minster so a damaging election campaign on the back of probable poor local election results will mean he goes after a half hearted attempt to stay.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 18, 2017, 11:32:04 PM
I think you're right that Corbyn will try and hold on but a fair few things are up the air at the moment.

Turnout is higher than usual for Unite's election. It's unlikely that Gerard Coyne will win but if he does, he'll immediately withdraw support for Corbyn and if it's tight and McClusky wins but with a much reduced vote then that will lower his support for Corbyn too. Which right now, might not make a difference but that, together with a bad showing at the locals and the inevitable election wipeout may mean he ends up with no choice but to go.  Don't underestimate the significance of the unions in this.

Plus. I just don't think that Corbyn would stay if there was hostility towards him in the membership and whilst there are plenty of hard core Cobynites, remember Owen Smith got 40% of the vote and he wasn't a standout candidate. I genuinely can't see Corbyn getting 60% on the back of electoral oblivion, particularly with Momentum having their own internal battles and union support (and therefore affiliated votes) wavering.

Plus, there will be another leadership contest and this time there might be a viable left choice like Lisa Nandy to contest him. I also wouldn't rule out Yvette Cooper either.

Lynton Crosby is running the Tory election campaign and it will be brutal because that's his style. If you think Corbyn and McDonnell have had a hard time from moderates and the PLP, I don't think we've seen anything like the hostility they'll get from the Tory election machine.

So yeah, I think all of the above will damage Corbyn irretrievably and I don't think his heart is in it now or he wants to be Prime Minster so a damaging election campaign on the back of probable poor local election results will mean he goes after a half hearted attempt to stay.

God, I do hope you are right.

I don't think he ever wanted to be Prime Minister. I think he just always wanted the Labour Party to reflect his own image. Middle-class, jam making, wool-winding, pacifists with men keeping a gentle but firm hand on the tiller and women making the tea and quietly expressing devotion. All the while vehemently opposing capitalism in theory without ever having the means to do anything about it in practice.

But I do think his supporters unite in the face of adversity rather than self-reflect on why they are being opposed. So the Tory election machine will crank up the opposition to him being elected but give his supporters yet another excuse to blame and unify around the idea of the MSM rather than address why he is such easy fodder for the press when other less controversial candidates may have stood a much better chance.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Tired, Confused & Duped on Apr 19, 2017, 12:17:24 AM
I'll vote Labour, as usual.

Not voting Labour, for Labour supporters, is like not voting for Hillary.

Do we need more lessons?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 19, 2017, 12:31:20 AM
I'll vote Labour, as usual.

Not voting Labour, for Labour supporters, is like not voting for Hillary.

Do we need more lessons?

Who you vote for, is a matter for you.

Who I vote for is a matter for me.

The difference between me not voting Labour and US voters not voting for Hilary, is that I live in a constituency with a 26,000 Tory majority where my vote will make no difference at all. whereas votes for Hilary would have probably counted.

But then Hilary had a chance of actually winning. She won the popular vote.

For Corbyn to win, he has to win seats that Milliband didn't. And persuade voters that didn't vote Labour to switch to Labour.

So far he has managed to lose seats than even Milliband won, rather than win extra seats. And his supporters are reduced to trying to persuade life long Labour voters like me to still vote Labour.

So basically, we are fucked.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on Apr 19, 2017, 12:48:50 AM
^^ Tbf hardly anyone ever self-reflects on why they are being opposed.


I'm worried about what May's decision says about how Brexit's going.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 19, 2017, 12:54:33 AM
^^ Tbf hardly anyone ever self-reflects on why they are being opposed.

Almost every party traditionally hires political analysts to assess where they have dropped votes and why, so they can improve electorally.

I did 3 years of statistical political science myself. The arrogance of Corbynism is that they don't seem to care.

Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Tired, Confused & Duped on Apr 19, 2017, 12:56:23 AM
BCfb, if you live in the same constituency where you've previously voted Labour, notwithstanding the 26k Tory majority, the value of your vote is the same as it always was. What reason is there to vote differently now?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on Apr 19, 2017, 01:02:41 AM
^^ Tbf hardly anyone ever self-reflects on why they are being opposed.

Almost every party traditionally hires political analysts to assess where they have dropped votes and why, so they can improve electorally.

I did 3 years of statistical political science myself. The arrogance of Corbynism is that they don't seem to care.


Ah, i didn't realize you were talking about professionals 8)
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on Apr 19, 2017, 01:08:33 AM
I will vote Labour this time against Lady Macbeth Theresa Villiers.  I feel very black-and-white about it.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 19, 2017, 01:10:07 AM
BCfb, if you live in the same constituency where you've previously voted Labour, notwithstanding the 26k Tory majority, the value of your vote is the same as it always was. What reason is there to vote differently now?

I've previously stood in this constituency in the Milliband era as a Labour councillor. Its never had a Labour councillor before.

Prior to that I l lived in Jeremy Corbyn's constituency 4 or 5 times and voted for him as my MP. Before I moved there I voted Labour in a north-east constituency which is likely to now tip to UKIP because of Jeremy Corbyn's failure to speak to, respect and engage working class northerners.

I will never endorse the bullying that I have seen take place in the Labour movement since he was elected as leader, in any form. I do not believe for one minute, that his leadership either lends itself to the prospect of a future Labour government or is healthy for working class people in this country. So I will not be voting Labour. If there was any chance my vote would influence the outcome of the local or national vote - I would. But very reluctantly.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Tired, Confused & Duped on Apr 19, 2017, 01:46:20 AM
I understand what you're saying, southern working class voters have no more been engaged than northern ones.

I have no great liking for Corbyn and a lot less for some of his supporters but I still cannot find a good enough reason to vote for any other party. Withholding my useless-anyway-vote seems an empty gesture to me, although I'd agree, continuing to vote Labour when there isn't the faintest hope of success, is not that different.

I'm too sleepy to think about this properly but I wish it was possible to get away from the feel-good variety of politics because aren't they the reason we're in this mess?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 19, 2017, 06:21:51 AM
It's not an empty gesture to me because I strongly feel that I do not wish to endorse what Corbyn and his supporters have done to Labour. I also resent the idea that we somehow owe them our vote despite them denigrating us at every turn. If it meant the Tories got in because of it, I'd have to vote for them through gritted teeth but 26,000 Tory voters here mean that's not the case.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Trifle on Apr 19, 2017, 12:08:57 PM
^ I agree with you. However isn't that what those who voted for Corbyn as party leader would have said too? That they couldn't bring themselves to vote for a Labour candidate they felt was turning Labour into a more right wing party than they would like? And they didn't think it was a good enough argument to vote Labour just to keep the Tories out as they thought nothing would ever change if everyone always thought like that. Where does it all end for Labour I wonder.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: fetishkitty on Apr 19, 2017, 03:37:38 PM
May has called this election because she believes the papers. She believes that she will walk it and in doing so get a mandate for whatever kind of Brexit she pulls out of her @rse next. I hope it blows up in her face, big time.

I hope the electorate is smarter than she or anyone else thinks. I hope that people question the candidates and vote for anti-Brexit ones, whatever their party. There isn't time for a proper coalition to come together (this should have been happening since June 24th last year), but there is the opportunity for the people to speak, loud and clear. Now is the time for everyone who wants to halt this runaway train to oblivion to stand up and shout. Loudly. Show the establishment, once again, that polls, and traditional news media and everyone else has got it wrong. Only this time, instead of it meaning that Trump and Brexit and all the other sh*t wins, let it mean that sense prevails.

Most of all, we need to galvanise the 18-24 vote. This is most assuredly their future in the balance.

It isn't another referendum....but it could be the gateway to another referendum. A legitimate gateway. The Mail et al can't call it 'undemocratic' if it comes after an election where pro-Remain candidates are clearly more successful than pro-Brexit ones.

This is my fervent hope. And I'm going to be banging on about it everywhere and to everyone, in the vain hope that it gets somewhere.

kitty
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Tired, Confused & Duped on Apr 19, 2017, 03:39:31 PM
^^I think if traditional Labour voters don't vote Labour it will be the end of the Labour Party.

I don't think something better is going to rise from the ashes. I think there will be endless crowing from the right wing press and whatever high handed measures May wants to implement will be seen to have received a mandate. We will lose the vocabulary of social justice because we will have no practical examples of it. It will become nothing but a game for academia and the privileged. If Brexit is something shameful to explain to the people who will inherit it, how much worse will be the collapse of the Labour Party?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Xof the Elder on Apr 19, 2017, 09:03:34 PM
I find Theresa May really repulsive. Not just her politics - but her mouth and expressions - so pompous and smug. Bleurgh - I wouldn't.

Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Marty on Apr 19, 2017, 10:41:00 PM
I am not keen on her legs....  :P
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Artist on Apr 19, 2017, 10:52:14 PM
She changed her mind about election in good time for her and it will work for her.
Her enemy is more divided, more than ever before. She is playing easy chess game - Checkmate.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Xof the Elder on Apr 20, 2017, 12:17:31 PM
I am not keen on her legs....  :P

I haven't thought about her legs! :D

Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: cigarettes and matches on Apr 20, 2017, 12:20:20 PM
She is revolting full stop
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 20, 2017, 03:39:10 PM
Sturgeon would probably win it if we are going on pins alone.

Maybe that's our best hope. Ask for it to be judged on Leader's legs and hope we end up being a satellite state of Scotland.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Xof the Elder on Apr 20, 2017, 09:17:21 PM
Sturgeon? She's well stumpy! Best legs in politics? Wow - that's though

Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 20, 2017, 09:35:32 PM
Have you seen the infamous Daily Mail front page on this, Fox?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Xof the Elder on Apr 20, 2017, 09:53:52 PM
Have you seen the infamous Daily Mail front page on this, Fox?

You talking to me? Or the real Fox?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 20, 2017, 09:59:06 PM
You.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Xof the Elder on Apr 20, 2017, 10:13:09 PM
I haven't seen it!
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: cigarettes and matches on Apr 20, 2017, 10:14:52 PM
For a minute I thought Fox was back  :-\
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Xof the Elder on Apr 20, 2017, 10:15:51 PM
For a minute I thought Fox was back  :-\

How do you know she isn't?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: cigarettes and matches on Apr 20, 2017, 10:52:10 PM
I don't
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Xof the Elder on Apr 20, 2017, 10:58:34 PM
I don't

I see
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 21, 2017, 11:21:26 AM
Sitting back and watching in despair as the main pro-Labour meme being distributed on Facebook is the "If you think Jeremy Corbyn is a loser than you've been brainwashed" one.

When will these dicks realise that even if it were true, that telling people they are unenlightened and just too thick to work it all out - doesn't work. It doesn't win votes.

It doesn't draw them in, it doesn't deal with those niggling concerns and it just makes them feel talked down to and sometimes sneered at, rather than respected.

The "We know better than you what you should and shouldn't be concerned about" campaign didn't work for REMAIN. Why won't Team Corbyn give themselves half a chance and just learn from their previous mistakes.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Sorted. on Apr 21, 2017, 06:42:18 PM
Do you remember when I was so excited about Jeremy Corbyn and even more excited that my mum's tiny little Labour Club  in rural NWales, in a wave of Corbynmania, had been swelled with deflecting Plaiders? This was it..Wales would be Labour once more as it should be.

Well they've all gone back to Leanne Wood's Plaid..taking my mother and two others with them.  Labour lunches are no more.  :'(

We are Bevans, dammit!
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 21, 2017, 08:13:56 PM
Heartbreaking, Sorted.

My mum was a Labour councillor. Now hers and half the solidly Labour council seats are occupied by UKIP. This is in the so-called Labour heartlands.

Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Sorted. on Apr 21, 2017, 08:21:37 PM
Ah well at least its not UKIP.

Plaid do well generally in our neck of the woods but they're set to do VERY well out of this one.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Medusa on Apr 22, 2017, 07:30:08 PM
I am told that word from on high in the Party is that members are asked not to discuss the upcoming election in negative, defeatist terms. I suppose there might be some point to this edict so I am trying to respect it, even if it feels a bit like 'clap your hands really quickly if you believe in fairies'.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Sorted. on Apr 22, 2017, 07:40:47 PM
Yes I've been trying really hard not to go off on one on Twitter this week.

If you can't say something nice and all that.   
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Pomegranate on Apr 22, 2017, 07:53:11 PM
I will be voting Conservative.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Amber on Apr 22, 2017, 09:21:37 PM
Middle son will be voting for the first time, but the election is right in the middle of A levels so he won't really have time to pay much attention to the campaigns  >:(
He is however aware of Jeremy Corbyn's pledge to scrap uni tuition fees and reinstate the maintenance grant, so that will hopefully sway him in the right direction  :D
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on Apr 22, 2017, 11:10:09 PM
I will be voting Conservative.
How come?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Pomegranate on Apr 23, 2017, 07:08:13 PM
Middle son will be voting for the first time, but the election is right in the middle of A levels so he won't really have time to pay much attention to the campaigns  >:(
He is however aware of Jeremy Corbyn's pledge to scrap uni tuition fees and reinstate the maintenance grant, so that will hopefully sway him in the right direction  :D

Can Mr Corbyn please explain how these grants will be covered? Last week he was promising free school meals for all primary school children. He stated that he would place a 20% tax on private school fees to pay for this. I wonder how he"ll then fund the additional state school places required after parents have had to remove their children from private schools due to Corbyn's virtue signalling tax.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Pomegranate on Apr 23, 2017, 07:22:16 PM
I will be voting Conservative.
How come?


To give the Conservatives a bigger majority and ensure that Brexit is pushed through once and for all. There is no soft/hard Brexit. Let me make it clear that Brexit means a complete exit of the EU that is what Leave voters voted for.



Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Apr 23, 2017, 07:24:53 PM
Oh dear. It must be absolutely terrifying to you to imagine a world where all children have fair access to education and are all on a level playing field regardless of how much unearned wealth their parents inherited  ;D

Scared you'll start sliding down the greasy pole?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Amber on Apr 23, 2017, 07:27:32 PM
I don't know the answer to that, but I do know that the way the current scheme works, most graduates will never pay off their full student loans and they will be cancelled after 30 years, so it is a ridiculous system.
My son is embarking on a 3 (possibly 4) year course...the tuition fees are £9250.00 per year and he is entitled to the higher rate maintenance loan of approx £9000.00 per year due to my low income as a single parent. (His older brother was lucky enough to receive half of this as a grant and half as a loan but this has changed this year.) As the system currently stands he will start to repay this as a percentage when his earnings are above £21,000. If he is an average earner throughout his life, he will most likely only ever repay £23,000 of his loans. Martin Lewis explains this better than I will be able to, if anyone is interested.
My point is, it is a ridiculous system, which is failing as it is. Jeremy Corbyn's plan will take away the worry from so many low income families and families who worry about 'debt', without impacting much on the bottom line.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on Apr 23, 2017, 09:21:43 PM
Let me make it clear that Brexit means a complete exit of the EU that is what Leave voters voted for.

You are not a dictator. You are only qualified to say what *you* voted for or wanted it to mean.  I heard Daniel Hannan and friends babbling on pre-June 23 and nobody even outlined what Leave meant let alone agreed.

So is Switzerland in the EU?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on Apr 23, 2017, 09:28:20 PM
Also, you are aware of the theory that May wants a bigger majority to have the leeway within her own party to finagle a softer/less complete Brexit, yah?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Artist on Apr 23, 2017, 10:09:51 PM
I don't know the answer to that, but I do know that the way the current scheme works, most graduates will never pay off their full student loans and they will be cancelled after 30 years, so it is a ridiculous system.
My son is embarking on a 3 (possibly 4) year course...the tuition fees are £9250.00 per year and he is entitled to the higher rate maintenance loan of approx £9000.00 per year due to my low income as a single parent. (His older brother was lucky enough to receive half of this as a grant and half as a loan but this has changed this year.) As the system currently stands he will start to repay this as a percentage when his earnings are above £21,000. If he is an average earner throughout his life, he will most likely only ever repay £23,000 of his loans. Martin Lewis explains this better than I will be able to, if anyone is interested.
My point is, it is a ridiculous system, which is failing as it is. Jeremy Corbyn's plan will take away the worry from so many low income families and families who worry about 'debt', without impacting much on the bottom line.

^Agreed
People should support Labour now. Even if they don't like many things about them, it will just make everything worse if people decide not to vote or divide votes to different parties.
At least I know who will I vote for.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on Apr 24, 2017, 07:34:12 PM
Sorry @Pomegranate I had initially intended to keep things civil.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on May 03, 2017, 11:23:14 PM
Why did Brussels leak the €100bn figure now?  How will it do anything other than increase May's votes?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Tired, Confused & Duped on May 03, 2017, 11:49:17 PM
^If that's what it'll do, maybe that's what they want.

Supposing we actually got Corbyn, things wouldn't be too bad (or not as bad as they will be with May) and might encourage more exits.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on May 04, 2017, 01:06:31 AM
The EU would *mince* Corbyn.  They are professional outfoxers who would  be running rings around him before he'd even found his biro.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Tired, Confused & Duped on May 04, 2017, 01:55:49 AM
Wouldn't anyone 'mince' Corbyn?

But still, the impact of Brexit for the UK under him would not feel nearly as bad as it's going to feel under May. We have to be punished, as an example of what happens when the main protector of workers' rights no longer has any force. If they could foist an @rsehole like Trump on us they would because then it'd be super sh!t but May is the best worst option available.

We have all, collectively, just said up yours which has to be made to look like a really stupid choice which it might not look like if we exited, got Corbyn and all UK students got free uni tuition, etc. Then it might look like we'd saved a ton of money and were spending it properly, on us. Under May of course, there's no risk of any of that happening and it will be sh!t, sh!ttier and well and truly utterly sh!te.
 
The UK Remain vote wasn't exactly morally kosher, turning a blind eye to Greece out of fear for our own skins at the hands of a right wing government is probably not confined to the UK. There'll be other countries with similar morally questionable reasons for their Europhilism. They have to be shown what kind of d!ckheads with power unfettered by the EU, they'll end up with if they dare to do what the UK has done.

Imagine how it'd look if the UK, out of the whole EU, had the best public transport system, modern trains running on time, no over crowding, no selling season tickets for more seats than are available, no massaging of arrival times, affordable fares. If we reverted to England's green and pleasant land and gave students a maintenance grant, and didn't charge them for tuition. If our hospitals ran like a well oiled machine and anyone who got sick could rely on getting treatment without having to run the gauntlet of GPs bent on avoiding making costly referrals, etc, etc. If it was all actually quite nice and the UK was on course to become somewhere civilized, there'd be other defections.

I'm making this up at nearly 2am so if there's a good reason why it's all wrong, I'd quite like to know but since Brexit and since Trump, I'm trying to take the most jaundiced view of everything in an attempt to avoid disappointment.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on May 05, 2017, 01:03:48 AM
Imagine how it'd look if the UK, out of the whole EU, had the best public transport system, modern trains running on time, no over crowding, no selling season tickets for more seats than are available, no massaging of arrival times, affordable fares. If we reverted to England's green and pleasant land and gave students a maintenance grant, and didn't charge them for tuition. If our hospitals ran like a well oiled machine and anyone who got sick could rely on getting treatment without having to run the gauntlet of GPs bent on avoiding making costly referrals, etc, etc. If it was all actually quite nice and the UK was on course to become somewhere civilized, there'd be other defections.

I'm making this up at nearly 2am so if there's a good reason why it's all wrong, I'd quite like to know but since Brexit and since Trump, I'm trying to take the most jaundiced view of everything in an attempt to avoid disappointment.

I'm not sure I follow…  you're suggesting the EU intervened because there is a real danger of Corbyn turning Britain into a better place?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 08, 2017, 09:35:26 AM
Watching without surprise but with distaste as the ire of Corbynites turns onto the electorate for being biased against Corbyn.

Quotes from a debate with some of them yesterday on the wisdom of calling working class and ordinary people stupid  as an election strategy :

Mr X : "Well they are stupid"

MR. B "Well, you present them with facts and evidence and that doesn't seem to work so what else is there to do but call them stupid?"

Mr. D "Its not our fault people are choosing to be stupid. If I'm going to loose either way, I might as well call someone a cunt, when they are being one."

Mr A : Ordinary people are more interested in waving biscuit tins of pastoral English villages that never really looked like that and muttering vague accusations about foreigners than listening to anything meaningful"

Mr. Y "I'm not responsible for their stupidity and I will not baby my working class peers to spare their feelings."

MR. W "Instead of listening to facts and experts they cling onto their own worldviews regardless".

And meanwhile, the Tories make more and more gains.

Whenever socialism has made huge gains and brought about positive change in the world it was because the impetus and the conviction to do so came from the people themselves. Socialism cannot be dragged uphill from the top down. It cannot be imposed by people who think they know better on to people who are not convinced. It cannot be barked at a populace from a jargonistic minority at the head of a political party. It has to be a groundswell from below. That's how we got the NHS.

The peoples trust in big, collective solutions needs to restored before they will vote for socialism. It has been systematically and deliberately wrecked and undermined by the right wing. The "deficit" had been carried for years by all parties in pretty much all countries. Yet the Tories chose to whistle-blow it and frame it a number one problem as if it was a left wing phenomenon. Same with the expenses scandal. The EU was skillfully framed as being all about waste and politicians abusing the system leading to the LEAVE victory. The same narrative (hate that word) is being spun around the NHS but with greedy administrators replacing greedy politicians. People will more easily trust a fable that rests on human greed than human co-operation. That's why the right have an advantage.

I hope against all hope that there isn't a Tory landslide but if there is, for the left to stand any chance of helping ordinary people, they have got to stop preaching to them and start harnessing their concerns and natural instincts as a force for change in a collective, positive way rather than a reason to hate on them and label them stupid.

Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on May 08, 2017, 10:09:01 AM
https://mobile.twitter.com/TheOnion/status/859437833945194500
Trump Voter Feels Betrayed By President After Reading 800 Pages Of Queer Feminist Theory
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 08, 2017, 10:34:20 AM
 :D lol.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Trifle on May 09, 2017, 09:31:53 AM
^  ;D

The Tories must have been glad to hear that Corbyn is staying leader regardless of the election result.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on May 09, 2017, 09:34:50 AM
Say what?!!
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on May 09, 2017, 09:47:20 AM
Ohh….
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Artist on May 09, 2017, 01:00:51 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0M91g4OlGEY

Jonathan Pie - Strong & Unstable
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 09, 2017, 11:49:25 PM
^  ;D

The Tories must have been glad to hear that Corbyn is staying leader regardless of the election result.

Indeed.

It didn't surprise me one bit to hear that. I was reminded by Facebook memories today that before Corbyn even stood for election, I posted on there that it was evident that there had been a big swing to the right and people calling for the Labour Party to respond by moving to the left were simply going to ensure that the next Tory Government had an ever bigger majority and would find it easier to pass more reaching legislation. So all the things that were on the backburner because they might not get them straight through Parliament would sail through once they had a bigger majority - apart from the obvious ongoing benefits cuts it would be swift repeal of the Human Rights Act, decimate the NHS and put a stake through its heart, bring back fox hunting etc.

And that's what will happen unless there is something akin to divine intervention,  I reckon.

I still do not believe that either Corbyn or most of his supporters ever genuinely believed that he could win a General Election. I still believe they just wanted control of the Labour Party so there was something in mainstream politics that reflected their ideological image back at them regardless of whether it was politically effectual and that tragically nullified the only powerbase that could stop or slow the Tory rampage down.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Trifle on May 12, 2017, 09:43:33 AM
It didn't surprise me much either, Betty.

I haven't spoken to many Corbyn supporters but the ones I have had a perception that lots of people who had lost confidence in Labour before Corbyn arrived will be galvanised to vote for him. When I pointed out some challenges to this idea, for instance thousands turning up at a rally isn't anywhere near enough to change anything, and your points re a swing to the right, they didn't seem aware of those arguments. Anyway, that was a sample of about 5, so I can't draw many conclusions from that. But yes, from what I have observed in the wider context, your explanation re an ideological reflection sounds a pretty plausible idea to me.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 12, 2017, 11:44:01 AM
Yes, I've seen arguments on Facebook even yesterday saying "How can people say he is unelectable and yet has won two leadership elections?"

I can't even conceive of the mentality you would need to have to think that being elected by 500,000 highly motivated lefties being shephered by an organisation like Momentum which has unexplained endless resources at its command, with being elected by a country with over 46 million voters who with the exception of Tony Blair and one Tory-led coalition, has voted in the Conservatives at every election in the last 38 years.

Lets do that comparison again :

500,000 people versus 46 million people.


You would have to be Diane Abbott's maths teacher to think this scenario is comparable.

I like the Labour Party manifesto. There is nothing in it I wouldn't personally grab with both hands. Despite my contempt for what Corbynism has done to the Labour Party talent pool I do genuinely hope the British public vote for it.

I wish my beliefs were representative of the rest of the country but time and time again I go to vote and my Tory MP gets over a 20,000 vote majority. That's the reality that Corbyn has not even tried to tackle head on.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Goblin Flump on May 12, 2017, 12:25:57 PM
Found a tactical voting to get rid of the Tories thing.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19_yf4RL133fBKscvSbID4eRKwztzY9KSI_2BMaI1bU8/htmlview?sle=true#gid=0
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on May 12, 2017, 08:25:24 PM
The f*cking "galvanisation".
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Musette on May 14, 2017, 10:32:23 AM
My brother thinks I am verging on Communist and I am the political 'black sheep' of the family.
The other day he said he voted Conservative because he's on the side of 'low taxes and hard work'.
Then on Friday he told me about a minor accident his daughter had and that they had to go to A&E.
He was full of praise for the treatment they received.
I said, "So what you're voting for is for poor people not to have access to that."
Him: "Errr..."
Me: "You think that because someone has less money than you, for whatever reason, they don't deserve that care?"
Him: "Ummmm....."
Me: "Really? What the fvck?!"
Him: "You're right, I'd never thought of it like that."

I have opened his eyes on many issues recently, but this might have been the most significant one.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Sorted. on May 15, 2017, 07:36:22 PM
Andrew effing Murray.

It's actual sabotage.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 15, 2017, 09:27:06 PM
Andrew effing Murray.

It's actual sabotage.

It won't be far off before they bring out a SIMS style election game based on Corbyn.

"With a General Election only weeks away, with your opponent already 17-20 points ahead, you will announce a Head of Election Strategy who has publically supported North Korea"

Thereby potentially alienating everyone who isn't a member of Kim Jong-un's immediate family, and in fact, even some of them.

You couldn't make it up.

You will also undermine any potential criticism of the neopotism of Donald Trump and Kim Jong-un by having your 25 year old son, Sebastian, employed as Chief of Staff to the Shadow Treasurer. He obviously was just the most experienced person in the entire party for this position. Like Ivanka Trump was.

It is interesting that Corbyn's close friend and supporter Paul Mason recently had his complaint dismissed as unfounded when he moaned about being taped on what turns out to be an ordinary camara phone in a public space, stating that "Jeremy Corbyn does not appeal to Working Class people and has no cultural references to how they live."

This is the man who used his huge media presence to whip up witchhunts for deselection of any candidate who did not visibly support Corbyn, the sort of candidate who did nothing wrong other than question whether Corbyn appealed to working class people, who were crucial to a Labour victory.

And yet I and many, many other lifelong Labour voters have been called a Tory, Red Labour, Blairite etc for making the same statement as he did.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on May 16, 2017, 05:46:04 AM
https://life.spectator.co.uk/2016/11/greece-word-paul-mason-labour/
"The only people [Corbyn] ever listens to are his sons, Seumas and the old guys he’s known for years."

Which is kind of sweet, sort of.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 16, 2017, 10:43:26 AM
https://life.spectator.co.uk/2016/11/greece-word-paul-mason-labour/
"The only people [Corbyn] ever listens to are his sons, Seumas and the old guys he’s known for years."

Which is kind of sweet, sort of.

If you're running a sweet shop not a political party.

The way Paul Mason downgrades his own Mother from the Headmistress she was to "school teacher" so that he looks more "street" is laughable. Poor women, demoted for her son's left wing credibility.

It's the sheer dishonesty from start to finish that I can't stand. It's ok for him to say it and believe it but anyone else saying it will be bullied out of the party. Whilst continuing to say that Corbyn will win the election some of his supporters on my FB are blatantly displaying on their cover photos, the name of the woman they are trying to replace him with if he stands down because of a bad result in the election. Why they are so frantic about the need to unite around a different candidate at this moment in time whilst publically asserting Corbyn's electoral infallibility, tells its own story.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on May 16, 2017, 10:53:17 AM
Lisa Nandy?

Owen Jones said in August 2015, "If you’re part of a movement that faces almost universal hostility from an Establishment you reject — in the political, media, and political world — it’s easy to become very defensive indeed. You feel like you’re under daily attack. Your positivity is sapped away, and you lash out, failing to differentiate between the sceptical and the critical and the militantly hostile. You risk becoming suspicious of anyone who is not already a signed up believer, and fail to be able to convince those who might be persuaded but have reservations."

I think that explains why only insiders can criticise.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 16, 2017, 11:24:18 AM
It's because they are on a power trip to turn the Labour Party from what it properly is and always has been, a broad based, pluralistic movement concerned with social justice and the redistribution of economic resources with Parliamentary power as its aim, into simply a host body for an essentially undemocratic parasitic entity that doesn't allow any form of dissent or political expression that doesn't come from the top. It doesn't care if it kills the host body because many of its supporters had no connection or loyalty to it anyway.

The substantive political beliefs are often no different between Labour Party members and Cult Corbyn supporters. It's how things are done that separates them. Corbyn was tolerated for years as part of the pluralism. But he won't tolerate anyone who doesn't agree with him.

It's ironic that the three people who self righteously try to lecture me most that I am a Tory if I don't vote for Labour at the general election because of the need for a pragmatic response to defeat a vicious right wing government, all voted Green "out of principle" at the last election - when I was out campaigning for Labour - even though I didn't like some of the policies - out of pragmatism, to fight a vicious right wing government. Total hypocrites. Social media preachers to the already converted who've never jammed a leaflet through a rusty letterbox in 20 years. While I'm still getting my political hands dirty arguing with working class people I grew up with to dissuade them from forming lynch mobs to round up innocent Muslims.

Owen Jones has been brave enough to stand up and face the moronic flak received by anyone who questons Corbyn's popularity with the electorate (and he is an insider - isn't he supposed to be allowed to convey his concerns without getting death threats?) But he has also got dirty hands when it comes to the destruction of the party. And I don't just mean dancing around on election night 2015, mocking Ed Miliband. So I read that explanation by him with that in mind.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Sorted. on May 16, 2017, 07:31:33 PM
Mccluskey announced today that 200 seats would be a success.  WTF.  That's a diastater, He then added that h didn't expect Labour to win.   

The main 'fight' is still with  these mythical Blairites who need to 'go and vote Tory' ...the country can wallow in Toryism for ever as long as we keep Jeremy.



Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 16, 2017, 07:37:22 PM
Mccluskey announced today that 200 seats would be a success.  WTF.  That's a diastater, He then added that h didn't expect Labour to win.   

The main 'fight' is still with  these mythical Blairites who need to 'go and vote Tory' ...the country can wallow in Toryism for ever as long as we keep Jeremy.

Is Corbyn's Labour the first political party in history to ask people not to vote for it and see it as a sign of success when they don't?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Sorted. on May 16, 2017, 07:51:19 PM
200 seats would be the worst result since 1935. 
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 16, 2017, 08:01:47 PM
200 seats would be the worst result since 1935.

Yes. But they won't get rid of him. Because they don't care about the Tories running rampage with an 80 seat majority -  an estimated 62 seat gain over Labour more than they got over Miliband.

Is all about egomaniacs painting themselves into a corner and refusing to admit they were wrong or they lied about his capacity to win.

And the excuse McCluskey gives? The press are not fair to Jeremy.

Well at what point exactly did you expect them to be fair to him, Len?

Before he was elected leader?

After the first time he was elected and they criticised him daily?

Did you think that was going to change when you reelected him?

Did you think they were going to get nicer as the general election approached?

Did you ever say "Yes Corbyn can be the next Prime Minister but only if the press are nice to him?"

Disingenuous arses.


Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Sorted. on May 16, 2017, 09:01:05 PM
Meanwhile, he's using 4.5 million of his members money to fund a campaign he doesn't believe in.  Nice one, Len.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Tired, Confused & Duped on May 16, 2017, 11:08:03 PM
At the local level hardly anyone mentions (to borrow a phrase) "the situation". On Sunday, when
 the IRA stuff came out, I was out canvassing in an army town and it didn't come up on the doorstep. We're wearing out our trainers for our constituency candidate and doing battle with the leaflet folding machine. I'm assuming it's similar elsewhere.

Also, Brexit seems to have had an unexpected positive effect in politicizing people who weren't previously interested, although otoh, I think if the whole GE could be run like Eurovision it'd be more efficient and the outcome might not be any different.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Earl on May 16, 2017, 11:39:33 PM
Labour Party Maifesto (condensed into short bullet points)
https://mobile.twitter.com/LabourEoin/status/864553700743938048/photo/1
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Earl on May 16, 2017, 11:46:34 PM
Tired and Confused, it's great being out and about and involved, isn't it? I'm sure everybody here is doing their bit, too...it'll be modesty forbids them saying so.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Meryl Streep Fan Club on May 16, 2017, 11:50:34 PM
Labour Party Maifesto (condensed into short bullet points)
https://mobile.twitter.com/LabourEoin/status/864553700743938048/photo/1

And all engraved on a grain of sand
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Tired, Confused & Duped on May 17, 2017, 12:03:21 AM
Earl, yes, it's good to be doing something practical but it does make me wonder who is most representative because most of the other volunteers I'm working with wouldn't really be interested in these discussions about the internal politics of the LP. They're just people like me who would like their neighbours to vote Labour and will door knock and leaflet in the hope of persuading some. This is in a constituency that's been Tory for forever so we don't actually think there's much chance of making more than an incremental change but it still beats not doing anything. Or to be blunt, every time leftwing people go on about how awful the LP and/or Corbyn is, I wish they'd not do it on social media, like this message board because it incrementally creates the thing they say they don't want. Go and leaflet and smile till your face aches.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 17, 2017, 12:30:33 AM
I have to laugh at that, Tired and Confused because firstly Earl was not doing anything practical for Labour in 2015 having joined afterwards with the new Corbynites. I was out there leafleting and campaigning then. We had the vicious Tory government to defeat by any means necessary back then too. When the Greens, the Lib Dems, the SWP etc who largely now make up a lot of Corbyns support were chucking spears at Labour which was the one party who could have defeated the Tories.

Go back on this very board and check the election threads in 2015 and you will see Corbynites when they were loyal to their old parties, taking the p'ss out of Ed Milibands nasal passages and bacon sandwich face. And now they are all about it not being about personalities and media presentation and making out Corbyn is the first politician to suffer press bias over trivialities. Oh and we must cast out principles and put our doubts aside to defeat the Tories. Well, why didn't they do that in 2015?

I'm sorry for your aching feet and I've been there and done that before I was labelled a Tory by my own party for simply wanting a credible candidate to put us in power and deliver a Labour Goverment rather than p"ss in the wind. And with respect, the people out their canvassing with you are representative of the people who are happy to work with the current leadership. So people like me are not visible in that scenario. Or my partner, another working class, lifelong Labour Party member who still pays her fees but the Corbyn controlled new administration of the CLP simply stopped including in
correspondence and invitations to meetings simply because she is known to be quietly anti-Corbyn.

You flatter me and Gingerbeer's current audience if you think exposure to my posts will effect the millions of votes that Labour need to win an election. I owe the current leadership nothing. Especially not my silence. The only positive thing for Labour if it loses as badly as predicted is to own where it went wrong including alienating people like me - it's normally lifelong guaranteed support. But I see no signs of that happening. And because of that I will keep stating my viewpoint as you can state yours.



Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on May 17, 2017, 04:21:45 AM
Earl, yes, it's good to be doing something practical but it does make me wonder who is most representative because most of the other volunteers I'm working with wouldn't really be interested in these discussions about the internal politics of the LP. They're just people like me who would like their neighbours to vote Labour and will door knock and leaflet in the hope of persuading some. This is in a constituency that's been Tory for forever so we don't actually think there's much chance of making more than an incremental change but it still beats not doing anything. Or to be blunt, every time leftwing people go on about how awful the LP and/or Corbyn is, I wish they'd not do it on social media, like this message board because it incrementally creates the thing they say they don't want. Go and leaflet and smile till your face aches.

Yes T&C except a year or two ago leftwing people were telling Betty and Sorted that anyone who's ever once voted Conservative is irredeemable scum and Labour doesn't want their vote.  That sort of thinking is the seed of genocides, never mind losing elections.

As for the reality of JC, I am voting Labour because NHS, welfare etc. but I wonder whether a Jeremy Corbyn premiership wouldn't hammer a stake through Labour's heart more effectively than a Tory victory.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Sorted. on May 17, 2017, 06:14:15 AM
FYI i've been out at weekend canvassing and leafleting for Labour. As i have done for many years.   For my MP and my party..Not for Corbyn.  Most people I have spoken to on the doorstep, if they arent voting for Theresa, will say 'for my MP not for Corbyn'   Incidentally, the Corbyn fan base want the Labour MP gone.  We've been battling them for ages.  They're mostly not out canvassing.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 17, 2017, 08:21:25 AM
Thanks Wolfie. Spot on.

And you'd have trouble finding someone who is trying every which way to be practical to help Labour more than Sorted.

The extent to which everyone can chip is different depending on their constituency. Mine is a 26,000 Tory majority. My current CLP is entirely run by Corbynites most less than two years into joining. They send out Momentum stuff targeting and naming anyone who isn't loyal to Corbyn despite members repeatedly saying they don't want to receive material from third party organisations criticising Labour members. People who complain are laughed at and mocked in official minutes. Everyone from our Chair, parliamentary candidate, treasurer, secretary, membership secretary, womens officer, LGBT officer resigned on mass because of the intimidation. And they were never even asked their politics. The new regime simply wanted its own representatives in positions of power and their only crime was to not have been to the meeting that they have before the official meeting. At election time in 2015 they were spending the vast majority of their free time "doing something practical to get the Tories out." Then they were told they were Tories and they should just leave.

Not everyone's constituency will be as bad as mine.

But I do wonder how I am going to damage the parties chances of winning incrementally by saying on here that I want people to vote for Labour but there are also problems in the party. Whereas Len McCluskey, can announce via the press that Labour are unlikely  to win and a loss by 63 seats, a Tory majority of 80, our worst result since 1935, would be a good result. Why isn't he being criticised for having that effect? I feel there is a big element of people getting their excuses in early.

Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Tired, Confused & Duped on May 19, 2017, 10:59:59 PM
The extent to which everyone can chip is different depending on their constituency.

Probably, but they could put up a poster, like I have (A3 size) and like my neighbour has when he saw mine and said he wanted one. If we had more time, the whole street might have posters.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 21, 2017, 12:19:59 PM
But all that's happened is that he now knows you were planning to vote Labour and you now know he was planning to vote Labour. Nobody who wasn't planning to vote Labour is now voting for them. And that is what needed to happen on a large scale for Labour to win. I don't think many people exist who weren't persuaded who to vote for and simply saw a sign in someone's window saying "Vote Labour" and thought "Ok. I will then." I know how most of the people in my street are voting because I've spoken to them - 18 Tories, 3 Lib Dems, 2 UKIP and 6 including us abstaining. If I put a "Vote Labour" poster in my window given how right wing the community is, given the 25,000 plus Tory majority, it'll probably prompt a few otherwise too complacent to need to vote Tories, to bother to turn out to vote Conservative.

And by the the way, the "We support Jeremy Corbyn" FB page is urging people not to vote tactically to get the Tories out but to vote Labour even where the Lib Dems or Greens have the better chance because apparently "every vote for Labour is a vote for Corbyn's leadership."  which is the exact opposite of what we are being told publically by Corbynites - i.e. Vote Labour to get the Tories out whether you like Corbynism or not. It's all so disingenuous.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Tired, Confused & Duped on May 21, 2017, 10:43:54 PM
I live in a very densely populated area that traditionally votes Labour. Reminding Labour voters to vote seems a good idea.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Artist on May 22, 2017, 09:10:15 PM
I have just seen this and wanted to share.

Poem by Agnes Török on the news of a new Conservative budget
Based on experiences of living in Britain under austerity as a young, queer, unemployed, female immigrant student - and not taking it any more.
https://youtu.be/kiaxHUFAWew
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: avanti on May 25, 2017, 09:10:32 PM
Andrew effing Murray.

It's actual sabotage.

Things are a little different in Scotland what with SNP cult-dominance, Tory resurgence under Ruth Davidson and Labour squeezed between the SNP independence /Tory unionist vice - but I've known "Andrew effing Murray" for over 50 years and can assure you that his appointment is an irrelevance to the debate; that the coverage is in a long tradition of right wing media smears against the left in a pre-election period; and he is a decent, principled, thoughtful man even if you don't agree with his political stance. Labour's problems lie elsewhere.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on May 30, 2017, 10:11:05 PM
So is JC doing better than expected? I want to believe.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 31, 2017, 12:51:38 AM
I’m amused by the idea that all of a sudden polls are to be believed, having been dismissed as propaganda up until now. And even then we see post-truth headlines like “Corbyn surges ahead” and when you actually read the story, its about Labour narrowing the gap to being only 5 points behind. How can you surge ahead whilst being actually that far behind? Yet at this time in 2015, one major poll was predicting a 1 point lead for Labour and the other major authoritive poll was suggesting a 1 point lead for the Tories. Both managed to miss a 7 point Tory lead on actual election day. And all the polls that have famously got it wrong have previously missed large right wing results rather than just got it wrong all-together.

For me personally, if the Tories get in, my job will disappear and I won’t be able to pay the mortgage. And I won’t have family or friends with assets around me who will pick up the slack. I will be totally screwed.

I’d love to know at this stage how life-changing the election result will be for posters, rather than just how pleased they will be, whether it goes one way or the other.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on May 31, 2017, 05:51:49 AM

For me personally, if the Tories get in, my job will disappear and I won’t be able to pay the mortgage. And I won’t have family or friends with assets around me who will pick up the slack. I will be totally screwed.

I’d love to know at this stage how life-changing the election result will be for posters, rather than just how pleased they will be, whether it goes one way or the other.


I worry about this a lot. I won't starve. But as a disabled person who needs extremely compassionate care I'm screwed. Plus, M.E. research has been catastrophically fücked by Tory ideological crap since the 1980s. 

If I ever do recover, I want to study and work and salvage something from my life having got ill at 19, and I don't see that happening in the post-Brexit Tory dystopia.

I didn't think Kinnock's warning applied to the upper middle classes, but it does now.  The Tories have made a wasteland out of my privileged prospects.  I see care costs and bleakness and suicide.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Sorted. on May 31, 2017, 07:47:04 AM
We'll read headlines like 'Surges ahead' a lot.. From right wing press as well.  It always works for the Tories. They did it to Red Ed.  'Look how close he is. Be afraid'   
The caveats to this poll say that on a good night the tories will have their landslide and on a bad night, parliament gets hung.  It actually says not a lot but this one graphic has been pounced upon.  Even the graphic doesn't stand scrutiny though. It relies on the SNP holding all but 4 of their seats and the NI parties keeping all of theirs.   The same polling company suggests that the Tories are set to take more SNP seats

Re your question, Wolfie..I think May is doing worse than expected. The same polling company has Corbyns personal ratings as way behind hers. There hasn't been much shift at all. So this poll will do the Tories no harm. 

...and so I'm off on my leafleting round this morning..keep trying and that but I fear May will be returned.

Incidentally, I've just fo back from a visit home. There has been a mini surge for Labour in Wales but their manifesto bears little resemblence to UK Labour.  Carwyn directly contradicted Jeremy's speech on Foreign Policy yesterday.  The tory surge in Wales is way more worrying.  I can't fathom it. 

 Edited with corrected NI/SNP figures. I read them incorrwctly at 7 am.  Points still stands...it's all top end estimates.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Sorted. on May 31, 2017, 07:58:28 AM
I don't spend all of my time reading polls by the way, it juat happens that my Politics & Government teaching rotation has coincided with this bloody election and I've been making poll powerpoints like a good un.  Polls make no sense...wait for the exit poll..mind you they even got that wrong in 2015.

In answer to your question, Betty, I don't think it makes a huge difference to my own position who wins..if my circumstances were to change for the worse then the Tories I would fear the most.

I'm lucky and it's thanks to the opportunities that the last Labour gov gave me that I'm in this position.  Course all of the initiative I benefitted from have since been scrapped.

Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 31, 2017, 08:55:33 AM
Yeah. I owe everything I have to past Labour Governments. Labour Governments that left wing friends of mine would only ever happily slag off for not being ideologically pure enough and voted Green instead.

My industry is totally dependent on Government funding. As a result I earn £3k less than I did in 2000, in actual annual salary. God knows what this amounts to in real terms. Once the Human Rights Act/ECHR commitment formally goes, it will simply cease to exist.

My question was prompted by the fact that two of the most ardent Corbyn supporters on my FB are doing the "an ordinary leader thinks of the next election, a real leader thinks of the next generation" get out speech. "We've done really well to get within 5 points and even if we lose it shows support is growing and it was worth it" yada yada. What royally p@sses me off is that one of them lives in Melbourne Australia and the other lives in Donegal. Not really happy to be part of their experiment unless the consequences of getting it wrong hurt them as much as me.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Sorted. on May 31, 2017, 10:16:53 AM
I spotted lots of Labour posters up on my round this a.m.  Hopefully Simon Kirby's days are numbered.

I also can't type on my phone.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Sorted. on May 31, 2017, 10:33:16 AM
Is anyone in Scotland?  How real is the Tory revival?  Will they make lots of gains or is it poll spin?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on May 31, 2017, 07:33:57 PM

My question was prompted by the fact that two of the most ardent Corbyn supporters on my FB are doing the "an ordinary leader thinks of the next election, a real leader thinks of the next generation" get out speech. "We've done really well to get within 5 points and even if we lose it shows support is growing and it was worth it" yada yada. What royally p@sses me off is that one of them lives in Melbourne Australia and the other lives in Donegal. Not really happy to be part of their experiment unles the consequences of getting it wrong hurt them as much as me.
The uncritical JC adulation on social media is probably as bad as the naysaying, to undecided voters.   
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on May 31, 2017, 08:09:39 PM
Yes.Its also annoying to those who want to vote Labour despite his control of the Labour Party rather than because of it.

It really isn't all about him. Or at least it shouldn't be. But his own campaigning especially that issued by Momentum has stressed its all about Corbyn rather than all about Labour.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Musette on Jun 02, 2017, 12:37:46 AM
I heard the SDP spokesperson earlier and he said that they promise to hold annual referenda on issues 'such as the death penalty'.
a) dear god, people are fed up with voting as it is, don't make us do it every year!
b) I'd give it a year before hanging was brought back by the great British public.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: auburn57 on Jun 02, 2017, 08:18:07 PM
Anyone living in Wales (UK)?

Whatever stance people take I hope they vote.

People died so that we can.

If you can not decide who to vote for please read the manifestos !
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Trifle on Jun 03, 2017, 09:46:38 PM
I heard the SDP spokesperson earlier and he said that they promise to hold annual referenda on issues 'such as the death penalty'.
a) dear god, people are fed up with voting as it is, don't make us do it every year!
b) I'd give it a year before hanging was brought back by the great British public.

Wow, that's insane.

Whoever wins the election won't affect my circumstances hugely, although who knows about the long term if there are increasingly extreme right wing policies.

I saw Bernie Sanders speak the other night and it was so refreshing to hear some compassion and sanity.

Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: valerie on Jun 08, 2017, 09:57:42 PM
watching from over here- - -hoping for your future.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Jun 08, 2017, 10:26:57 PM
Dear God

I pray the exit polls mean something positive can be carved out here in terms of a progressive alliance

I don't want to stay up all night and it be close and then get kicked in the ovaries like with Brexit and
Trump.

But at least there's real hope.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Lust for Life on Jun 08, 2017, 11:01:51 PM
Prediction of ukip 0 was encouraging too.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Jun 08, 2017, 11:08:13 PM
Definately. If somehow a progressive alliance could derail Brexit that would be the icing on the cake.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: purelybyaccident on Jun 08, 2017, 11:10:12 PM
^^This time I will agree with you  :)
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Tired, Confused & Duped on Jun 08, 2017, 11:15:01 PM
^^that's exactly what I'm hoping for.

I almost don't care what sort of alliance there may be as long as it sees off Brexit.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Tired, Confused & Duped on Jun 08, 2017, 11:22:43 PM
It's interesting where the UKIP votes are going.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Jun 08, 2017, 11:23:19 PM
Couldn't care less how it was made up. Would be quite ironic if Sinn Fein turned up to vote to keep it intact though.

Thatcher would be spinning in her grave.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Chewwy on Jun 08, 2017, 11:24:17 PM
^^that's exactly what I'm hoping for.

I almost don't care what sort of alliance there may be as long as it sees off Brexit.

If only...
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Jun 08, 2017, 11:48:22 PM
Re: UKIP It's interesting because their vote has dissipated mainly through complacency about having succeeded with their single issue (Brexit) rather than any real shift in opinion.

Which suggests it is important that a progressive alliance holds first time off and we don't have to go back to the country to have a second election. Because that complacency may correct if Brexit it still the popular choice.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Tired, Confused & Duped on Jun 09, 2017, 12:43:02 AM
Has anyone yet said May's position is "unassailable"?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Tired, Confused & Duped on Jun 09, 2017, 12:46:17 AM
Re: UKIP It's interesting because their vote has dissipated mainly through complacency about having succeeded with their single issue (Brexit) rather than any real shift in opinion.

Which suggests it is important that a progressive alliance holds first time off and we don't have to go back to the country to have a second election. Because that complacency may correct if Brexit it still the popular choice.

I think it's impossible to fathom the UKIP voting mind and the widespread confusion over whether Labour was pro or anti Remain confuses things further. I keep trying tho', looking at whether Labour or the Cons have picked up UKIP's votes.

Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Jun 09, 2017, 01:01:11 AM
Too early to say I reckon. There have been some major EDL campaigns in the north east recently, mostly anti-Muslim/ anti terrorism and forceful around Brexit bit they haven't translated into results.for UKIP. What we have seen so far is a polarisation with the other parties losing votes. On the left that would seem to be tactical progressive voting and on the right, I would say partly complacency and partly alienating their own voters with punitive social care and other policies.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on Jun 09, 2017, 05:55:12 AM
I hope Saga N, Earl, Duke and Dorothy will come back and have a qualified preen now. :)
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Jun 09, 2017, 06:23:07 AM
Bored? You love a little stir don't you, Wolfie?

Labour didn't win.

Unfortunately.

They've done enough to stop the worst happening so far. With the help of other parties.




Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on Jun 09, 2017, 06:37:23 AM
I just think after all the bad blood that I should admit that I was as wide of the mark as they were. 
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Jun 09, 2017, 06:42:14 AM
While there was me smiling and getting ready for work thinking I might get to keep my job and my house. You know, the big stuff?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Sorted. on Jun 09, 2017, 06:45:46 AM
I'm very happy to admit I was wrong about a Labour wipeout.   Very happy to admit that that I was wrong about Tory landslide.

Corbyn? It's great that he's got the young voters out but  I think a Cooper would have wiped the floor with May. May was a disaster. We should have won.  It was an anti tory (and dare I say antibrexit?) and thats good enough for me.



Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Jun 09, 2017, 06:58:15 AM
I'm very happy to admit I was wrong about a Labour wipeout.   Very happy to admit that that I was wrong about Tory landslide.

Corbyn? It's great that he's got the young voters out but  I think a Cooper would have wiped the floor with May. May was a disaster. We should have won.  It was an anti tory (and dare I say antibrexit?) and thats good enough for me.

There are so many ifs and buts and missed potential for knock out blows that a competent opposition could have taken before we got to this point but I am really too happy to give a sh/t about any of them. There are so many potential disasters that may have been avoided by this result that I don't think anything can dampen my spirits this morning.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Sorted. on Jun 09, 2017, 07:02:59 AM
Exactly!
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Sorted. on Jun 09, 2017, 07:06:09 AM
My moment of the mornong has been listening to a tory leave voter ranting on about tearing up his Union garden flag and how if this country is going Trot.

The same chap has been banging on about remoaners needing to accept democracy for months.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Lust for Life on Jun 09, 2017, 07:13:36 AM
I think along with Theresa May we can thank Captain Ska for their contribution to this result ;D
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: સરસ on Jun 09, 2017, 09:57:33 AM
Interesting figure.......665666  less votes for Corbyn compared to Blair's election result in 1997... 

With the hatred within the Labour party and the venom on a daily basis from the press and Conservative Party towards Corbyn and the shambles of the referendum and the loss of Labour people to UKIP/Tories and the utter lost of Scotland Labour... I think Jeremy Corbyn did bloody fantastic.. Sure he did not get Labour in government but sing me a song Frederic,  Corbyn done a fantastic job as did everyone else in Labour...

This campaign was run on personality and like so many people May dismissed Corbyn... He and Labour concentrated on policies...

Imagine if Labour did not eat itself up after Miliband,  Brown and Blair royally f*cked the Party left,  right and centre...

I am happy that Labour did so well but at the same time I am fuming because some Labour MPs campaigned harder against their leader than the Tories..

Anyways... I am rambling and am yet to sleep after I woke up yesterday morning...


I am sure someone else more clued up than me will come along and tell me I am talking nonsense.








Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: સરસ on Jun 09, 2017, 10:37:26 AM
Just to add..

In my own personal life bubble I am pretty sure all the people I know voted Labour... and were mostly Labour in anyway (give or take a few)...


... but if I listen to my work bubble out of the 129 guys I work with who were almost 90% Labour before, there  were only about 10 who voted Labour the last two elections..  They all spout how terrible Corbyn is ...  a commie en a do gooder and a leftard and what a pile of shit Labour is now.. and how he only wants immigrants and asylum seekers in the UK and how he hates the UK.. and how even his own Party hates his guts.. and the IRA and Hamas and every other terrorist or potential terrorist.... and Trident...

and Brexit.. they all want a hard Brexit deal or a no deal...

Hopefully this will now be the end of my ramblings...

Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Artist on Jun 09, 2017, 01:42:36 PM
Tories to unite with DUP?
Wikipedia, their policies - please tell me half of these are a joke - at least someone must have made a joke in last paragraph!

The DUP is a right-wing populist[5] party. It is characterized by its Ulster loyalist position, which it has staunchly held since its inception. Ulster loyalism, with its aim for continued inclusion of Northern Ireland in the UK, has been identified as a type of ethnic nationalism[40], it is historically linked with paramilitarism. Following the 2017 general election, where no party received an outright majority, it entered into an agreement to support the UK Conservative party in government.[41] The DUP said "The alternative is intolerable. For as long as Corbyn leads Labour, we will ensure there’s a Tory PM."[41]

The DUP is Eurosceptic,[4] but have stated that they prefer a soft Brexit.

They have called for the return of the death penalty and have claimed that children raised by homosexual parents are " far more likely to be abused or neglected …" [42]

They believe that dinosaurs never existed and they their bones were placed there by pre-historic homosexuals with nationalist agendas to fool 'right thinking and good presdetarian people'.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Goblin Flump on Jun 09, 2017, 01:50:30 PM
It also seems like they'd ***k up the terms of the Good Friday agreement, would could mean that the 20 year ceasefire stops.
They're a complete handmaid's tale of a party.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Tired, Confused & Duped on Jun 09, 2017, 02:14:34 PM
10 seats.
0.91% of the vote.
And in government!
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Sorted. on Jun 09, 2017, 03:49:16 PM
What a coalition.  Axis of evil.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Slantrhyme on Jun 09, 2017, 06:19:52 PM
 Oh yeah, just when you thought the "Tories couldn't sink any lower…
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Goblin Flump on Jun 09, 2017, 07:00:23 PM
I'm hopeful that the more tolerant Tories won't have it. The only positive is I see this is causing a lot more interest in NI and the s*it theyhave to deal with.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Sorted. on Jun 09, 2017, 07:32:53 PM
Yes I thought  that earlier.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Slantrhyme on Jun 09, 2017, 07:36:31 PM
 Is there not the danger of this inflaming sectarian tensions in Northern Ireland?
 If there are any sensible Tories out there, please stand up 
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Pomegranate on Jun 11, 2017, 07:20:48 PM
If only the people of the UK had just respected the result of the Referendum we wouldn't be in this position. We should have collectively got behind the pm, in order to seek the best deal for the UK.



Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Lust for Life on Jun 11, 2017, 07:30:54 PM
If only elected governments had the sense to require a lot more than 50.00000000000001 of the waaaaay less than 100% of eligible voters who actually turned out to vote to bind them to any referendum outcome.

And if only elected governments and dominant political parties had the sense to actually inform the electorate on the nitty gritty before blithely calling a referendum and hoping for the best.

I am not only referring to the UK here.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Pomegranate on Jun 11, 2017, 07:39:49 PM
Re: UKIP It's interesting because their vote has dissipated mainly through complacency about having succeeded with their single issue (Brexit) rather than any real shift in opinion.

Which suggests it is important that a progressive alliance holds first time off and we don't have to go back to the country to have a second election. Because that complacency may correct if Brexit it still the popular choice.

I think it's impossible to fathom the UKIP voting mind and the widespread confusion over whether Labour was pro or anti Remain confuses things further. I keep trying tho', looking at whether Labour or the Cons have picked up UKIP's votes.

It's clear from the election results that Labour picked up the mass majority of the UKIP vote (traditional working class labour voter), One of Corbyn"s many promises was to uphold Brexit and stop free movement. Any resurgence in UKIP due to choosing a more charismatic leader will damage the Labour vote.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Pomegranate on Jun 11, 2017, 07:49:02 PM
Dear God

I pray the exit polls mean something positive can be carved out here in terms of a progressive alliance

I don't want to stay up all night and it be close and then get kicked in the ovaries like with Brexit and
Trump.

But at least there's real hope.



Isn't it ironic that the Left's infuence in forcing a hung parliament will result in a coalition which is more to the Right. ... This is what happens when people do not accept the result of a fair democratic Referendum.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Jun 11, 2017, 08:23:01 PM
Dear God

I pray the exit polls mean something positive can be carved out here in terms of a progressive alliance

I don't want to stay up all night and it be close and then get kicked in the ovaries like with Brexit and
Trump.

But at least there's real hope.



Isn't it ironic that the Left's infuence in forcing a hung parliament will result in a coalition which is more to the Right. ... This is what happens when people do not accept the result of a fair democratic Referendum.

Ironic? It's laughable. It's an abominable union that will crawl to get from day to day or pass anything  but water.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Jun 11, 2017, 08:23:56 PM
Re: UKIP It's interesting because their vote has dissipated mainly through complacency about having succeeded with their single issue (Brexit) rather than any real shift in opinion.

Which suggests it is important that a progressive alliance holds first time off and we don't have to go back to the country to have a second election. Because that complacency may correct if Brexit it still the popular choice.

I think it's impossible to fathom the UKIP voting mind and the widespread confusion over whether Labour was pro or anti Remain confuses things further. I keep trying tho', looking at whether Labour or the Cons have picked up UKIP's votes.

It's clear from the election results that Labour picked up the mass majority of the UKIP vote (traditional working class labour voter), One of Corbyn"s many promises was to uphold Brexit and stop free movement. Any resurgence in UKIP due to choosing a more charismatic leader will damage the Labour vote.

Then I'm very grateful that you lot all have the charisma of a wet ferret.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Tired, Confused & Duped on Jun 11, 2017, 08:48:32 PM
Referenda, like this one;

Billigst Du, Englischer Mann, und Du, Englische Frau, diese Politik Deiner Reichsregierung, und bist Du bereit, sie als den Ausdruck Deiner eigenen Auffassung und Deines eigenen Willens zu erklären und Dich feierlich zu ihr zu bekennen?

And unity, like this great success,
http://cdn3.spiegel.de/images/image-594812-galleryV9-ajiu-594812.jpg
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Tired, Confused & Duped on Jun 11, 2017, 08:51:48 PM
^^there's some proper analysis here, http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2017/06/result-happen-post-vote-survey/ on where the UKIP vote went.

"Just over half (57%) of UKIP voters said they had switched to the Tories".
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Tired, Confused & Duped on Jun 11, 2017, 08:57:51 PM
Dear God

I pray the exit polls mean something positive can be carved out here in terms of a progressive alliance

I don't want to stay up all night and it be close and then get kicked in the ovaries like with Brexit and
Trump.

But at least there's real hope.



Isn't it ironic that the Left's infuence in forcing a hung parliament will result in a coalition which is more to the Right. ... This is what happens when people do not accept the result of a fair democratic Referendum.

Ironic? It's laughable. It's an abominable union that will crawl to get from day to day or pass anything  but water.

Let's hope so, about water being all that's passed.

Otoh, they might find they need umpteen types of referenda to get anything done, and then g-d help us if we're subjected to any more of the wretched will of the people.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Musette on Jun 11, 2017, 10:00:37 PM
If only the people of the UK had just respected the result of the Referendum we wouldn't be in this position. We should have collectively got behind the pm, in order to seek the best deal for the UK.

If only David Cameron hadn't been so fvcking stupid as to hold the referendum in the first place.
If only he'd required a super-majority like any government with any sense would have done.
If only he hadn't been so arrogant and complacent and sure he'd win.
If only the government had, over the last 7 years, done more for the neglected and forgotten parts of the country.
If only the young people had gone out to vote like they did this time.
Then we wouldn't be in this position.

::)


In any case, the best deal for the UK was the one we already had.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: valerie on Jun 12, 2017, 05:08:38 PM
If only the people of the UK had just respected the result of the Referendum we wouldn't be in this position. We should have collectively got behind the pm, in order to seek the best deal for the UK.

If only David Cameron hadn't been so fvcking stupid as to hold the referendum in the first place.
If only he'd required a super-majority like any government with any sense would have done.
If only he hadn't been so arrogant and complacent and sure he'd win.
If only the government had, over the last 7 years, done more for the neglected and forgotten parts of the country.
If only the young people had gone out to vote like they did this time.
Then we wouldn't be in this position.

::)


In any case, the best deal for the UK was the one we already had.
No "like' button on GB, so will just  say, well said!
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: scully on Jun 12, 2017, 10:58:52 PM
So most of you on here got it wrong. Very very badly wrong. Laughably so.

And as you were holding forth with your versions of unassailable truth and common sense - Corbyn is unelectable, the Left will be wiped out, those supporting Corbyn were idiots - the rest of us who understood got on with the job of getting MPs elected, or fighting the good fight online (it *was* social media wot won it), and it turned out that loads of ordinary working class people agreed with us.

This once inspiring corner of the internet became a foetid tank of bullying toads and their enablers, forcing decent people to leave or back away almost completely because they were literally subjected to the sort of ad hominem redolent of a Daily Mail front page. Alongside killing political debate (I see it's just a bunch of people nodding along with the bully-in-chief these days - how can any of you still take what she says seriously?) you pretty much killed the forum.

Well, I for one am grateful. I am now fully engaged with politics; I've met some wonderful people campaigning door to door, and online; and I can get behind a Socialist Labour leadership for the first time in my adult life. These are fascinating times. Who'd have thought the real world would be so much nicer than Gingerbeer?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Aline on Jun 13, 2017, 03:55:40 AM
Oh dear. Shouldn't we be trying to reunite the party, not harping on past events? Seriously?
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Wolfgang on Jun 13, 2017, 06:15:21 AM
Yes. And I assure you that the distress was not confined to those on your side of the argument, scully. Mostly for me it was the logic gaps.

I did say I was wrong, but it may be overdoing it to say "Very very badly wrong. Laughably so."  He didn't actually win yet.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Aline on Jun 13, 2017, 06:45:55 PM
I am enormously heartened by the election result, and it gives me hope for the future. I am happy to admit I was wrong about JC. The Labour vote in Wales is up, and the working-class voters who switched to UKIP have mostly gone back to Labour.

It's a shame we have Brexit looming over us because frankly nobody has a clue what's going to happen to our economy afterwards. Read Ian Dunt's book on Brexit if you want to be scared witless. He's on Twitter too and can be relied on to explain the complicated shit.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Jun 13, 2017, 08:42:49 PM
Begs the question of why we are happy given that we are accused of being Tories.

Of course you have to go back into the annals of history to find a Labour leader who fought an election that ended with the Tories needing to form a coalition. All the way back to 2010. The fact that so much ground had to be made up because he sat on his hands preaching to the converted for so long that the Tories got lulled into a sense of complacency, is amusing rather than praiseworthy.

Of course the result was made possible by the bribing of middle class students and their parents not anything to do with the working class from whom only a small minority will benefit when it comes to tuition fees - but I'm not complaining. I'm happy with that.

The former UKIP voters will have voted like a lot of people, for Labour not specifically for Corbyn and probably despite Corbyn.

We had these huge guilt trips of "it's petty not to vote Labour just because you don't like Jeremy Corbyn" and yet when people do exactly that, their votes are assumed to be endorsing him anyway.

I'm still not happy with the vile deselection zombies that I suspect he isn't motivated to bring under control but I'm happy the Tories have been stopped in their tracks, I'm happy with the Labour manifesto and I'm happy that they finally look riled. Because it's been a long time coming.

Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Aline on Jun 13, 2017, 09:30:23 PM
I live in hope that the party will unite behind Corbyn at least until the Tories are ousted. Please people, don't fuck it up.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Top on Jun 25, 2017, 11:18:01 PM
It was a funny old election. I didn't think that Corbyn was anything but an impossible sell to middle England but I'd still take the worst Labour government over the wettest Tory one, so I'm gutted.

I know that there are those who still don't quite get that Labour lost but honestly, they did. We did. Again.

I know that there are those who think it doesn't matter, who think that it was some kind of win but this wasn't Albion Wanders keeping Chelsea to a two goal lead. In a first past the post democratic system, there are no moral victories, just a winner, a loser and the Lib Dems. There are many who won't feel the defeat, those who aren't poor, sick, old or disabled or are too self absorbed to understand that politics isn't an abstract concept to some. The poor, sick and old will get it in the neck under another five years of Tory rule. The Guardian has an article that claimed that an extra 30,000 deaths a year were as a result of austerity we can now multiply that by a further five. A terrorist atrocity on the scale of Manchester, three times a day, every day still won't equal Tory austerity. If that doesn't matter to you then there's no hope, no hope for fucking anything.

I was one of the people who said Corbyn was unelectable. I was right, he wasn't elected. He didn't win against the poorest candidate the Tories have put up in a generation. He didn't even win against the poorest candidate the Tories have put up in a generation who showed no signs of actually taking part in an election.

Like I say, gutted.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Betty Croker's frosted buns on Jun 26, 2017, 08:16:26 AM
The Tracey Ulman sketch last night of a non- Corbynite Labour MP being reprogrammed by a Corbyn whip into believing that 262 is a higher number than 317 was spot on. We're allowed to invent our own truths on both the left and the right nowadays.

And her impersonation of Dianne Abbot was good too.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Lyco on Jun 26, 2017, 11:22:30 AM
That's not how you spell fetid btw.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Lyco on Jun 26, 2017, 01:03:00 PM
For a few days after the election I was wandering about saying how wrong I was and how brilliant it all was and how I'd never been so delighted to be so wrong. So very very wrong.

And then I had a little independent think for myself and realised that Labour hadn't actually won the election, that the last time a Labour leader had this kind of result the party and the country basically demanded he resign and that Theresa May, Theresa woeful May, got more votes and more MP's. Which, btw absolutely according to the rules of our democracy, a democracy which is a righteous thing, means that she is perfectly entitled to form a government, given that SHE GOT MORE VOTES AND MORE MP'S AND THAT'S WHAT THE RULES SAY.

Sorry, I feel the need to shout because I watched that outrageous march on Downing Street which was an absolute affront to our democracy and it made me furious. You don't just rock up on a demo because you don't like the result or because you are trying to subvert the results of the election. What are you people trying to turn this country into?

I don't like the result of the election. The very worst Labour govenment is still better than a Tory one so of course I voted Labour (and btw. Mr Paul Mason and Mr Matt Zarb Cousin, I didn't vote for Corbyn, I voted for my local MP). But that doesn't mean mean I think its reasonable to thunder down to Downing Street and demand that the Conservatives give way.  Because that would be an undemocractic and illegal overthrowing of the elected government which would also be a coup. And I know how miffy the left get about such things. God knows, they've not stopped banging on about them for the last two years.

Plenty of people were inspired by Jeremy Corbyn, I absolutely underestimated that and equally I overestimated Theresa May's political agility.

Mostly though, over the past couple of weeks I've been struck by the vitriol from pro Corbyn supporters which has been absolutely appalling. Not towards conservatives, but towards anyone who wasn't on board with Corbyn from the start. And if any of those people who aren't evangelical about Saint Jeremy point out anything inconvenient like, oh for instance, the fact that his Manifesto is keeping over 7bn of Welfare Cuts, remember those? the ones that Harriet Harman whipped the party to abstain on? the ones that burnt the 'Blairites' so badly, the ones that pretty much propelled Corbyn to power?

Yeah, he's only rolling back 2bn of those 9bn cuts and keeping the other 7bn. But that's ok because he's wiping out my student debt! hurrah!!

Anyway, I could rant on but.. who is really interested in anyone who isn't onboard with St Jeremy's love train? One thing I can say with certainty is that I've never been more depressed about the state of democracy and politics in the UK than I currently am.
Title: Re: Election 2017
Post by: Top on Jun 26, 2017, 01:41:23 PM
I have a much higher tolerance for stupid among my family than I do among my Facebook 'friends'. That means I've endured a lot of bollox from my nieces, nephews and the children of my cousins, one of whom keeps (mis) quoting Shelley at me. Apparently, she is the many and I am the few. Her enthusiasm reminds me less of communist reprogramming and more of the woman a few villages across who was blessed with stigmata thirty years ago. Even those who conceded that she's been at herself with a kitchen knife, still thought there was something very holy about it. Logic had no place in those conversations.