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In Depth or in Distraction => Identity Matters => Topic started by: Stevie on Jun 16, 2013, 11:46:05 PM

Title: Femme invisibility
Post by: Stevie on Jun 16, 2013, 11:46:05 PM
How do you cope with being invisible ? I have some femme friends who hate this as it really frustrates them.

Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: kerfufflegoblin on Jun 17, 2013, 12:12:26 AM
I joined a group that specifically aims to combat the invisibility some women feel. They decided to make it invite only because before they did, they wound up with a bunch of guys who'd set up profiles with women's photos attempting to join and they got hacked off about it.

It's not as bad in London because obviously there is a bigger lesbian population, but it's still tricky in places which are mixed gay/lesbian (cos we get pegged as straight women mates with gay men) or places like SBS where occasionally lesbians assume you've wandered over to the lezzers by accident.

I have been known to throw utter tantrums on the subject. laziest way to reduce invisibility is to dress down and hang around with either extremely well known lesbians who can confirm your identity to passers by or to bedeck yourself in lesbian symbols (I had an array of earrings and bangles at one point)
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Stevie on Jun 17, 2013, 12:15:42 AM
Femme invisibility is like all Butches being expected to have a sex change because their Butch,

Not fair, frustrating and tiresome.

I bet it's a continual struggle no ?
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: kerfufflegoblin on Jun 17, 2013, 12:19:40 AM
yep, particularly if other people go "I don't experience this, whatcha on about?" Then you feel invisible AND paranoid. It's kinda crazy and I don't really understand the effort behind it. Your identity doesn't impact mine, mine doesn't impact yours. Let us all have a nice pint of cider together.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Stevie on Jun 17, 2013, 12:24:14 AM
If only it was so easy 😶
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: kerfufflegoblin on Jun 17, 2013, 12:25:29 AM
It is, everyone just needs to accept that they simply must do what I tell them. They'll come round eventually.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Stevie on Jun 17, 2013, 12:28:13 AM
^ 😉
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Honeybabs on Jun 17, 2013, 01:12:53 AM
yep, particularly if other people go "I don't experience this, whatcha on about?" Then you feel invisible AND paranoid. It's kinda crazy and I don't really understand the effort behind it. Your identity doesn't impact mine, mine doesn't impact yours. Let us all have a nice pint of cider together.

^ that.

It's not really anything I talk about much anymore unless I've just dealt with a big mouthful of it.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: sally33 on Jun 17, 2013, 11:45:36 AM
How do you cope with being invisible ? I have some femme friends who hate this as it really frustrates them.

Yes but on the plus side there is the surprise value when you do come out to people and the common assumption - that all girly women choose to be with men - gets challenged.  I do enjoy that moment. 
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: ella on Jun 18, 2013, 09:38:54 PM
Stevie!!.. Yes defo..feels like I'm wearing my cloak on a daily basis  ::)...so dull  :-\
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Stevie on Jun 19, 2013, 09:17:34 AM
Exasperating !

Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: ella on Jun 20, 2013, 12:32:00 PM
^...Hmmm Stevie ...think my cloak was working when we met some years ago  ;D :P
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Jenny Talia on Jun 20, 2013, 09:06:35 PM
I remember some scene lesbian assuming my gf (at the time) was gay and I was bi. I lost my rag at her for that. I mean she'd based this almost entirely on the length of my hair, despite the fact that her hair was almost as long. For some reason her hair was gay and mine was suspect. She avoided me after that for almost a year.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Guineapig on Jun 20, 2013, 09:13:26 PM
She was using her Hairdar  ;D
Btw, how you doing? X
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Honeybabs on Jun 21, 2013, 12:59:55 AM
My Hair Is More Gay Than Yours

is something I'm going to say to someone, one day.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Jenny Talia on Jun 22, 2013, 03:31:03 PM
She was using her Hairdar  ;D

 ;D
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: ellis on Jun 22, 2013, 06:03:26 PM
My Hair Is More Gay Than Yours

is something I'm going to say to someone, one day.

That has to be a limited-edition badge.  Please.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: kerfufflegoblin on Jun 22, 2013, 06:24:08 PM
That really reminds me of an incident I had in the loos at Ghetto with a girl with number one haircut.

Girl talking to her friend "there are all sorts in here tonight, loads of straight girls"
turns round, sees me "oh, sorry no offense" whilst kinda giving me a Look
me "oh, what? cos I can't eat out a girl whilst having long hair?"
her "!?!"
me *storms off in righteous indignation/fury*

I recounted this to my fiends at the time and one of the long haired guys said "has she not heard of hairbands?" whilst proudly waving a couple.

The main reason I was so upset about the incident was I had just been rejoicing in the fact that the Ghetto had loads of women and men dressed like punks, indies, goths etc. with varying hair length. AND I had successfully chatted to lots of lovely womens. It felt like a massive slap in the face going "hahahah you don't belong really! Fuck off back to your cave you horrendous monster."
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Stevie on Jun 24, 2013, 01:31:27 PM
I remember years ago being knocked back from a gay bar in Liverpool .. Wouldn't have minded if it was a dyke bar but it was a gay one.

I got the not tonight line "this is a gay bar" um "yeah I'm gay !!" Then I got this place isn't for you.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: musclegirl on Jun 24, 2013, 02:24:16 PM
Couldn't agree more with you Sally 33, about the assumption that all girly looking women are straight. Its an assumption made because of the way society perceives lesbians. You can only be a lesbian if you shave your head and stomp around in DM's obviously ;D
I own a nice pair of black timbs so obviously qualify for being lezzy ;D
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Honeybabs on Jun 25, 2013, 03:19:21 AM
I find that when I'm at my heavier side of my weight range (size 18) I don't really get it as much. Oh, chubby, sure, you might be gay. If I'm a size 14, then I'm straight.
I'd understand if it was straight people but lezzos?? Really?? Internalised all sorts there!!!
Can't get bloke = lezzo.
By lesbians!
And predictably if I'm a bit chubbier, I get more man attention.  ::)

One thing I've found is when the lezbeens won't talk to me, I go talk to the straight bloke friend of someone, he'll talk to me! *then* suddenly I'm noticed. And proving I'm straight. Not just bored and wanting a conversation.

One thing I do miss about London, it how much easier it is to talk to people at pubs or events, mainly because people are ratassed.

Not as much the popular sport here and most people 40+ seem to go home at 11pm. Ugh.


Swings and round abouts....
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Sky_femme on Jun 27, 2013, 08:15:11 PM
I used to find some gay clubs entry policies offensive but quite funny at the same time :) I remember when club Astoria (London) was still open they once didn't let my friend and me in because we both looked very feminine. Also, I was always asked on the door of Heaven club (London) whether I know where I'm going or whether I am gay (I can't remember what the question was exactly but it was very rude). I always had to go with a more tomboyish-looking friend to be able to pass the screening.  ;D I always felt as I was being "assessed" there. Not sure what their door policy is now, this was some years ago.

In general I am definitely invisible because I am very feminine. When I was single I would sometimes see women I liked and I tried to look at them with "meaning" as in to make them realize I am femme and interested. Nobody ever got the hint  ;D They probably thought I was staring because they look "unusual" (butch) or something...  ;)
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Ms_omega on Jun 27, 2013, 10:41:23 PM
Sky-femme the memories are hilarious. I think I visited heaven a handful of times but got the same treatment. I'm not particularly femme but obviously didn't fit their criteria.  :D
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Stevie on Jun 27, 2013, 11:25:54 PM
Ghetto the dirtiest kind of seedy lol .. Remember seeing two half naked men laid on a sofa t*ssing one another off bold as brass good job most were trollied lol am sure it got worse than that.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: silverfluff on Oct 16, 2013, 10:25:52 PM
I just find generally people making assumptions about my sexuality infuriating, it is nobody's business but mine, it is rude.

I've been assumed to be straight, which was kind of an insult, and I have also felt like I have been outed by strangers because of my non-straight choices.
Having struggled with what my sexual/romantic orientation is, I am not ready to go and label myself as one or the other in the world. 

As it happens only trousers for men fit me, this would be the case with my body type regardless if I was straight, gay or into ducks, and yet it gives shop assistants the right to go and stick me into the lezzer box, which would be ok if projecting my inner dyke was my primary motive, but it was not, it was mostly about the fit.
 The girl in the shop suddenly is all flirty with me, because she assumes I am gay, when in a different situation she would just have ignored me. It felt kind of forced.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Popsicle on Oct 16, 2013, 10:56:56 PM
That really reminds me of an incident I had in the loos at Ghetto

Ah the Ghetto! I spent my first night as an out gay at the Ghetto.
I was very drunk and the only thing I can still remember from that night is me and my girlfriend failing to understand why there was a note on the door of the toilet saying "one person only". ::)

I don't think I'm very feminine, I don't wear make up and these days I v seldom wear dresses or skirts, yet people still always assume I'm straight.
Heteronormativity, innit.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: BabyBoy on Oct 22, 2013, 01:54:49 PM
It must be very annoying to be questioned about your sexuality on the scene if you're Femme, but try not to take it too hard/seriously. It's nothing wrong with you, you don't need to change anything, you just need to tell whoever it is that Femmes are, and have always been,  part of the gay spectrum. Just look at them haughtily and incredulously and say something like "I can't believe that you've never heard of, or seen any Femmes before!" ::)
If this fails, just hang yourself on some Butch's arm, and it won't happen again. The last bit was a joke. Sort of.  :-\
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Destined4Hades on Nov 25, 2013, 11:04:23 PM
How do you cope with being invisible ? I have some femme friends who hate this as it really frustrates them.

Why does it bother them what other people think? Surely if you are happy with your sexuality, it shouldn't really matter whether other people 'notice' that you are gay? And even if they do 'clock you' as gay, they are not really noticing you - they are noticing how you fit their perception of a certain stereotype, and this is more conforming than liberating, no?

hades x
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: musclegirl on Nov 26, 2013, 02:02:06 PM
Hades what you say us true. But it is more for recognition so approaches can be made. If femmes are read as straight then other women won't approach them in an interested way. I think that is the point. Like if I was in a gay bar and there were a load of femmes, I might think they were straight and if I was interested I wouldn't feel able to approach them. Unless it was obvious one was interested!
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Destined4Hades on Nov 26, 2013, 10:16:44 PM
Hades what you say us true. But it is more for recognition so approaches can be made. If femmes are read as straight then other women won't approach them in an interested way. I think that is the point. Like if I was in a gay bar and there were a load of femmes, I might think they were straight and if I was interested I wouldn't feel able to approach them. Unless it was obvious one was interested!

Ah, so these invisible femmes are waiting to be approached in gay bars?

Honey, everyone's waiting to be approached in gay bars  ;) I'd recommend approaching those 'loads of femmes', being witty and charming and un-threatening and friendly. The worst thing that can happen is they drop a 'boyfriend' into the conversation, right?! I mean they are hardly going to be all precious about being approached by a woman if they are in a gay bar.

Hmm maybe Uncle Hades should resurrect her matchmaking thread, if there is a need  ;D

hades x
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Bizoute on Nov 26, 2013, 10:28:35 PM
I think some of us just grow a bit tired of frequently being presumed straight and I expect that's more of a thing amongst femmes and those of us who look stereotypically feminine; nothing necessarily to do with unhappiness in one's sexuality. I'm pretty comfortable in mine, as it goes. However, unpick the femme-invisibility idea idea and it's (I reckon) a lot to do with a world which still often assumes straight as the 'norm'. I can't say that it's something that bothers me on a daily basis or anything, but I feel it's a fair enough thing to find vaguely irksome. (Said this femme). 
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: musclegirl on Nov 27, 2013, 06:18:38 PM
Hades guess it's all about confidence. Wish I had yours :-\
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: femmebelle on Dec 01, 2013, 05:08:42 PM
Iam a feminine woman and have on occasion been questioned about my sexuality. ::)
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: sailor on Dec 25, 2013, 11:46:25 PM
I'd be delighted if a match making thread was resurrected!
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Jenny Talia on Apr 12, 2014, 10:53:46 PM
I think some of us just grow a bit tired of frequently being presumed straight and I expect that's more of a thing amongst femmes and those of us who look stereotypically feminine; nothing necessarily to do with unhappiness in one's sexuality. I'm pretty comfortable in mine, as it goes. However, unpick the femme-invisibility idea idea and it's (I reckon) a lot to do with a world which still often assumes straight as the 'norm'. I can't say that it's something that bothers me on a daily basis or anything, but I feel it's a fair enough thing to find vaguely irksome. (Said this femme). 

And it's the rudeness of other people, the almost 'but-how-was-I-supposed-to-know-considering-you-don't-look-like-a-lesbian'.  Even lesbians have these close-minded stereotypes about other lesbians.  I would always do my own dirty work in bars in order to meet women, but I still got really sick of lesbians and gay men who thought nothing of making assumptions about my sexuality, DESPITE the fact that the majority of lesbians in London actually looked like me!  I can only hope that these stereotypes are dying a quick death now that the older lesbians are becoming bored of the scene and a younger generation are moving in.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Lobo on Apr 19, 2014, 04:05:20 PM
And it's the rudeness of other people, the almost 'but-how-was-I-supposed-to-know-considering-you-don't-look-like-a-lesbian'.  Even lesbians have these close-minded stereotypes about other lesbians.  I would always do my own dirty work in bars in order to meet women, but I still got really sick of lesbians and gay men who thought nothing of making assumptions about my sexuality, DESPITE the fact that the majority of lesbians in London actually looked like me!  I can only hope that these stereotypes are dying a quick death now that the older lesbians are becoming bored of the scene and a younger generation are moving in.

Well I get same thing whether in mens clothes but the majority of the time in my more femme stuff.
The sad thing is it's the young ones assuming straightness from me, and having to correct them I'm not straight or bi.
So even though older lesbians are leaving the club scene it doesn't necessarily mean that assumptions on sexuality are dying out. I think they'll always be there.
Especially if when in gay clubs you go to hit on a girl only to find out they're straight and just hanging out with their lesbian/gay friends. Which in turn makes you start questioning in your mind should I ask anyone for a date as I keep asking the straight ones out in these gay clubs. It actually happened to me three times in a row which made me feel like whyyyyy aren't you a lesbian haha.
just glad it didn't put me off asking ladies out as I don't assume they're straight or bi, just a attractive woman.
Hopefully in the future women just ask who theyre attracted to out and don't assume their sexuality so they can enjoy a beautiful woman in their arms rather than leaving them alone to think how come no one thinks of them as a lesbian.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: betterthanaverage on Apr 19, 2014, 05:26:44 PM
I think some of us just grow a bit tired of frequently being presumed straight and I expect that's more of a thing amongst femmes and those of us who look stereotypically feminine; nothing necessarily to do with unhappiness in one's sexuality. I'm pretty comfortable in mine, as it goes. However, unpick the femme-invisibility idea idea and it's (I reckon) a lot to do with a world which still often assumes straight as the 'norm'. I can't say that it's something that bothers me on a daily basis or anything, but I feel it's a fair enough thing to find vaguely irksome. (Said this femme). 

And it's the rudeness of other people, the almost 'but-how-was-I-supposed-to-know-considering-you-don't-look-like-a-lesbian'.  Even lesbians have these close-minded stereotypes about other lesbians.  I would always do my own dirty work in bars in order to meet women, but I still got really sick of lesbians and gay men who thought nothing of making assumptions about my sexuality, DESPITE the fact that the majority of lesbians in London actually looked like me!  I can only hope that these stereotypes are dying a quick death now that the older lesbians are becoming bored of the scene and a younger generation are moving in.

It's the younger ones who don't know me who make the assumption that I'm straight and these stereotypes exist within the context of the media and people's own experiences rather than being confined to older lesbians. Once you get to a certain age; you don't shuffle off the earth to make room for the younger generation who are supposedly more 'enlightened' than the last generation.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Jules™ on Apr 19, 2014, 09:49:19 PM
Quote from: betterthanaverage link=topic=110774.msg3500307#msg3500307  femme)

Once you get to a certain age; you don't shuffle off the earth to make room for the younger generation who are supposedly more 'enlightened' than the last generation.

^
Best comment I have read on GB for ages.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Stevie on Jul 18, 2014, 03:29:07 PM
I've got a butch/femme facebook group I'm very proud of  :P
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Underdog on Aug 19, 2014, 03:42:08 PM
I don't present as femme (I'm androgynous/masculine of centre) and I have some femme friends and I know some of them do get a bit fed up with the assumption of them being heterosexual, with discrimination they've faced and with feeling invisible. I used to present more feminine too and identified as "bisexual" and now I look different, whilst I experience more overt bigotry on the street, I find people more likely to talk to me in LGBTQ spaces.  ::)

So I don't really have a lot of feedback here because I ID as genderqueer and boi and no longer (as) feminine... I sometimes wonder though if the intersecting experiences a lot of people have is rooted in assumptions tied to gender presentation (including misgendering people) and that we need to acknowledge that spaces set up for us should maybe be conscious that they might not feel as safe, or comofortable for more feminine presenting people?

Also, challenging misogyny (and other bigotries) in the mainstream gay scenes and with people we're around when we see it. Challenging our own assumptions about a person regardless of clothes, how we and how society racialises them, perceptions based upon level of education, the way they talk ect?

Meh... I dunno.  :-\
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Inara on Nov 11, 2014, 10:55:01 PM
I love wearing dresses. not heels, though I have some. and everybody thinks that I am straight. I'm not sure if I am femme or not. quite new to this... but now I'm a little scared to go out to lesbian places alone because they won't let me in - I look too straight. but I really do love dresses and I love being a woman and some of the stereotypical things.

or am I just brainwashed by the society?

or are dresses the easiest thing in the world - no worries if my top goes with my bottom :)
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Blythe on Nov 11, 2014, 11:13:49 PM
You have nothing to worry about, there are quite a few dress wearing lesbians, wear what you want and get out there.

Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: outoforder on Nov 11, 2014, 11:18:17 PM
Just cough 'gingerbeer goes down well' they will let u in.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Inara on Nov 11, 2014, 11:22:43 PM
thanks :)
sometimes I try too hard to fit in...
but that gingerbeer advice sounds funny :)
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: aliceb on Nov 11, 2014, 11:24:59 PM
I love wearing dresses. not heels, though I have some. and everybody thinks that I am straight. I'm not sure if I am femme or not. quite new to this... but now I'm a little scared to go out to lesbian places alone because they won't let me in - I look too straight. but I really do love dresses and I love being a woman and some of the stereotypical things.

or am I just brainwashed by the society?

or are dresses the easiest thing in the world - no worries if my top goes with my bottom :)

where do u live? there aren't any lesbian only places in London for example so there is no chance of not getting in.

there are places that lesbians frequent and are maybe aimed at women (eg bar titania, but there is nobody on the door there checking who is coming in!) but there are no strictly lesbian only (or women only) places left anymore.  are there??

well u get a few one off events maybe but that's it.

even southbank is not just for lesbians, its just it seems like only lesbians go and that's only once a month.

and nobody would stop someone going in because they 'look' straight!
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Inara on Nov 11, 2014, 11:37:18 PM
I live in London now.

that's very nice of you to assure me like that. I might get my courage up.

where I come from, I would be laughed at by the local lesbian community if they saw me dressed as I normally do. they would tell me to find a bloke.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Blythe on Nov 11, 2014, 11:58:52 PM
Blimey that's a bit Neanderthal and anti feminist !!

I think it's a bit more enlightened now, even the editor of Diva magazine has long haired and floaty clothes these days.

Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: aliceb on Nov 12, 2014, 12:05:55 AM
Blimey that's a bit Neanderthal and anti feminist !!

I think it's a bit more enlightened now, even the editor of Diva magazine has long haired and floaty clothes these days.

yes i agree on all points.

if the editor is still Jane, i notice she has changed her appearance somewhat over the years! nothing wrong with that, i rather like chameleons.

i wish i had the nerve to change my appearance radically to be honest.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: scouser on Nov 12, 2014, 12:15:11 AM
I have, and still can't believe what I look like each time I look in the mirror! :o
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: aliceb on Nov 12, 2014, 12:19:20 AM
gone from being blonde to brunette or similar or something much more radical?
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: LottieBiscuit on Nov 20, 2014, 04:49:54 PM
Someone wrote something fab on this for my website recently: http://thisisbiscuit.com/lipstick-bisexuals-when-you-just-dont-look-gay-enough/
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: olive25_55 on Dec 02, 2014, 08:21:28 PM
Hey,

I'm new to this site so hi! This is a topic that really frustrates me.. if I tell someone that I am gay.. there reply is always 'but you don't look gay' ..... I'm sorry, I didn't realise there was 'a look'.. just because I look like a girl doesn't mean that I'm straight.. I'm becoming increasingly infuriated by this.. Also if I go to a gay bar, I will always get hit on by men and not women. Perhaps I don't have a gay vibe..haha. Kind of puts me off going, but where am I meant to meet people!?
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: RedandBlue on Dec 07, 2014, 03:56:30 PM
Hi,
I'm new as well. I find this posts interesting, 'cause even though I don't think I'm particulary feminine, recently few times happened to me that when I say to someone I'm gay, they have to argue that if I've never had an experience with a man then I can't be sure I'm gay, It's like they're telling me to be open minded O_o. And I'm not talking only about straight men, but also a gay man friend of mine, even my mother as well still don't believe that I'm gay. I mean, would they ask me they same question if I say that I'm straight? I don't think so. What is so unbelievable in liking a girl rather than a man? Am I really close minded?   :-\
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Lodjur on Dec 08, 2014, 03:52:00 PM
You are absolutely not close minded, of course. This is a bad trick they are using on you.

I think that people who doesn't want to accept that you are gay will cling to everything they can find tho give themselves "hope" and then try to use this as "evidence" that they are right.

You look like a girl, you had a boyfriend, never had a boyfriend, whatever... is them who are not open minded, you can be lesbian and be feminine / tried heterosexual relationships / never had heterosexual relationships / anything.

And please don't try something you don't feel like trying just to prove a point to someone (even yourself).

The worst problem that I see in you right now is that you are doubting yourself because of opinions from someone you feel is reliable (a real gay and a friend, a parent), but when it comes to your identity and feelings and what you like... sorry but there is only one reliable source on that: you.  :)
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: RedandBlue on Dec 08, 2014, 09:34:02 PM
Thank you Lodjur. You're right I'm doubting my self and I should rely less on what other people think,  but anyway I wouldn't do anything that I don't feel like doing, so don't worry. :)
The thing that makes me mad is that nobody would suggest to open up my mind if I say I'm straight. That is a bit frustrating.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: ellis on Dec 15, 2014, 01:32:25 PM
I think femme is it's own gender for some of us and also sometimes it's very private/secret/nobody else's business.

But none of our gender and sexuality is anybody else's business & we don't owe any explanations, even to ourselves.  Perhaps.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: imperfectcupcake on Dec 15, 2014, 10:30:24 PM
I think femme is it's own gender for some of us and also sometimes it's very private/secret/nobody else's business.

But none of our gender and sexuality is anybody else's business & we don't owe any explanations, even to ourselves.  Perhaps.

For me it is a gender. As well as woman. To me they are seperate genders. And I have two. That ride together on a tandem bike. Some people's genders get tangled in each other and cause bike crashes. Luckily, mine get on.

However, I'm now in a place where identifying as a femme and a lesbian kind of mean something slightly different than it did where I was in the UK and I hesitate to call myself either. Things have changed a lot and even terminology has moved on and morphed.

I still have the same two genders, but one just gets a different name. Kind of like calling something a corgette and a zucchini. Still the same thing.

Except I've just had to make up my own terms. That way, people ask me what I mean now, instead of assuming. I find the assuming happens so much now I get excluded because of assumptions. Everyone thinks their personal dictionary is common form. It does annoy.

Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: pure evil on Dec 15, 2014, 11:24:38 PM
I find the assuming happens so much now I get excluded because of assumptions.

*twitch*  :-*
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: horse on Dec 16, 2014, 12:35:20 AM
Now that Facebook has 71 genders I can be incompatible with everyone if I so choose
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Bizoute on Dec 16, 2014, 10:11:02 AM
I think femme is it's own gender for some of us and also sometimes it's very private/secret/nobody else's business.

But none of our gender and sexuality is anybody else's business & we don't owe any explanations, even to ourselves.  Perhaps.

Musca!  :D

Anyway, the femme thing. I think it's interesting the "sometimes very private" comment you make on it. Because in my own head, I'm a femme, but it's really not a word I often say aloud in relation to myself. I mean...I have a few good queer friends who are all femme-identified too. But I don't remember really speaking to them much about it. One of my closest friends is a transguy, and occasionally he'll make a comment to me about my femme identity/style (etc.) and I really appreciate that he gets it, this whole fluid/defined identity. 

Occasionally, in conversation people will comment how feminine I am. (I don't know why. It just sometimes comes up). And actually, 'feminine' is a word I find a bit tricky. I occasionally use it, but I find it quite loaded - maybe because I've spent too much time around people very heavily into masculine/feminine binaries (which by this point, I just react to. I find binaries constrictive and basically a pain, when gender's potentially so interesting and expansive).

It's a bit of a weird one for me if I'm being told how 'feminine' I am, because I often suspect what's being commented on is that I'm gentle, speak softly, almost exclusively live in skirts and dresses. But I kind of struggle with the idea that there's much being read into that because in my mind it's mostly costume. And when I'm told how 'feminine' I am, I often have a sneaky feeling I'm being mis-perceived, when I'm quite fierce deep down, however many unicorns I may have strung in my hair on a given day. I assume whatever the basic essence is of me, soul, whatever word one uses, that it's androgynous, genderless. But beyond that, I feel I can more easily own the word 'femme' than 'feminine', because I see them as two quite different things and the former is a lot more powerful to me than the latter.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: imperfectcupcake on Dec 16, 2014, 11:11:55 AM
I can relate a lot to what you've said, Biz.

The only time "femme" gets brought up outside forums is generally someone talking to me about binaries. Which is why I've distanced myself from the word a bit now that I'm back. My friends get it, but we don't talk about it either. There's nothing to talk about. I've known them all since I was 15ish and we all pretty much know each others genders, sexualities, fluidity levels and how everyone likes their coffee and where all their moles are. We talk about sex, food and goofy shit. The gender thing is just understood and I never have to explain anything. One of them has transitioned twice and nobody blinks. He's changed his name three times and pronouns twice, and we just shrug and roll along. That's just kinda who he is. Two of them have the pronoun "they" and we found it a bit clunky at first but no one even asked about it. Just kinda went "ok"

But outside of this bubble, it's a shitstorm of wierd that can get a bit difficult. It can feel like an island. We all grew up together and the level of acceptance is really high. It's strange to go from that to "femme = fluffy and shallow and likes shopping" just by physically walking around the corner into a coffee shop with dyke hipsters and second wave feminist hippies.

Someone asked me what what one of my mates' sexuality was the other day and I said "uh. Bisexual. Ish. Soorrrrta. Um. Actually... I know exactly the different genders she goes for romantically and the other ones she'll just fool around with...but I can't tell you a word for it. It's easier if I can just tell you that I think you'd find it difficult to get anywhere with her. How about that? That's all you wanted to know, right?"

I'm finding it harder to fit things into single words anymore. I know they are short cuts/short hand for quick reference, and it can be a really handy thing. Who wants to say "four legged and platofrm covered implement used for sitting upon" instead of "chair" all the time? But then because people get an image of "chair" in their head they don't always see the chairs that don't have legs, or have three or one or are totally round or sometimes act like a shopping cart.

I'm losing my capacity to make sense. I should go make food.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: flora poste on Dec 16, 2014, 11:20:34 AM
I feel I can more easily own the word 'femme' than 'feminine', because I see them as two quite different things and the former is a lot more powerful to me than the latter.

I get this.

Being in a relationship with a cis-man, I'm surprised by how strongly femme I feel. I doubt he would or could identify it, but actually for me it feels that my identity has strengthened - perhaps because in my relationship there is no counterpoint to recognise or define it? ie, I must hold it internally.

I'm really happy that Musca is here too.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: pure evil on Dec 16, 2014, 12:27:54 PM
But outside of this bubble, it's a shitstorm of wierd that can get a bit difficult. It can feel like an island. We all grew up together and the level of acceptance is really high. It's strange to go from that to "femme = fluffy and shallow and likes shopping" just by physically walking around the corner into a coffee shop with dyke hipsters and second wave feminist hippies.

OH YES, and I think that's why I don't get sick of talking about it with people who share similar experience or have a capacity to think outside of the 'femme = cupcake bearing' box (apologies if you love to bake). Sometimes because of the lack of true reflection of my own identity (and a fair bit of active undermining) I can start to feel as if I don't exist.

I liked the doco 'before stonewall' because of the way it described this feeling of dissonance when such a gulf exists between ones own internal and the outside world. There's a point in the film where people talk about moving to bigger cities and starting to realise they are not just rare abberations, this always makes me smile and feel more persistent in just being who I am despite frequently failing to fit any of the tidy definitions.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Bizoute on Dec 16, 2014, 02:06:31 PM
I feel I can more easily own the word 'femme' than 'feminine', because I see them as two quite different things and the former is a lot more powerful to me than the latter.

I get this.

Being in a relationship with a cis-man, I'm surprised by how strongly femme I feel. I doubt he would or could identify it, but actually for me it feels that my identity has strengthened - perhaps because in my relationship there is no counterpoint to recognise or define it? ie, I must hold it internally.



I probably feel at my queerest when I date men. I touched on that in an article I wrote recently, so I'll save saying too much about that here. (If you want, I'll point you towards the article when it's out - if it's interesting to you).
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Bizoute on Dec 16, 2014, 02:12:01 PM


I'm finding it harder to fit things into single words anymore. I know they are short cuts/short hand for quick reference, and it can be a really handy thing.

Words as shortcuts, yes, but I hear you. The problem being that with labels come assumptions. People often latch on to assumptions based around people they know who happen to also use your label/s of choice. This was a clunky sentence.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: flora poste on Dec 16, 2014, 03:27:03 PM
I feel I can more easily own the word 'femme' than 'feminine', because I see them as two quite different things and the former is a lot more powerful to me than the latter.

I get this.

Being in a relationship with a cis-man, I'm surprised by how strongly femme I feel. I doubt he would or could identify it, but actually for me it feels that my identity has strengthened - perhaps because in my relationship there is no counterpoint to recognise or define it? ie, I must hold it internally.



I probably feel at my queerest when I date men. I touched on that in an article I wrote recently, so I'll save saying too much about that here. (If you want, I'll point you towards the article when it's out - if it's interesting to you).

always! yes please.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: imperfectcupcake on Dec 16, 2014, 10:03:17 PM
But outside of this bubble, it's a shitstorm of wierd that can get a bit difficult. It can feel like an island. We all grew up together and the level of acceptance is really high. It's strange to go from that to "femme = fluffy and shallow and likes shopping" just by physically walking around the corner into a coffee shop with dyke hipsters and second wave feminist hippies.

OH YES, and I think that's why I don't get sick of talking about it with people who share similar experience or have a capacity to think outside of the 'femme = cupcake bearing' box (apologies if you love to bake). Sometimes because of the lack of true reflection of my own identity (and a fair bit of active undermining) I can start to feel as if I don't exist.

I liked the doco 'before stonewall' because of the way it described this feeling of dissonance when such a gulf exists between ones own internal and the outside world. There's a point in the film where people talk about moving to bigger cities and starting to realise they are not just rare abberations, this always makes me smile and feel more persistent in just being who I am despite frequently failing to fit any of the tidy definitions.

LOL re cupcake. The reason I chose imperfectcupcake as a name is the idea of a "messed up" or "messy" cupcake, a "fuck you" cupcake. Imperfect femininity, femininity as in fuck you. Femme, to me, has always been "fuck you" femininity. Femininity on its own terms, its own design, its own creation. I actually can't stand cupcakes and hated the twee explosion of them. To my mind it was symbol of what was expected of femininity - being cute, small and perfect. To eat in one bite. Limited. Restricted to a tiny space.

Fat femininity, loud femininity, swearing like a sailor femininity, angry femininity, femininity with a loud dirty laugh, femininity that loves sex, that kisses and tells.

Things that femininity is not supposed to be, mixed with stereotypes that piss off narrow minded feminism (I'm a proud feminist but I know quite a few that see femme as a "role" rather than a natural expression of self - just because they see femininity only in terms of being something performative, unnatural and performed for the eyes of men - and thus wrong. Odd for a feminist belief, but it's common enough)

So femme, for *me* (everyone to their own) was being able to mix "fuck you" type femininity, with "bad stereotypical" femininity - both things I was not allowed to be, and be it. With pride.

There was a time when femme was a flame for me, a way to actually be myself against everyone telling me not to be weak (the bad forms of feminine).

These days, the word is a bit floppy, but only because of where I am living. But it's still a political, fierce word to me. And a gender of femininity that is its own sense of worth, based on joy of self in "bad femininity" - all the things we can claim for ourselfs and enjoy.

That's not the whole story for me, of course.

And yes, 10 years in London was certainly a fucking relief in that regard. It was far less oppressive on the femme front. When I first walked around, being actually seen, noticed, and checked out by dykes on the tube escalators, it felt like a bag of wet cement had been lifted off my shoulders. I was *seen* and not disregarded anymore.

The first lesbian club I walked into, I went into the bathroom and there were girls in black dresses and heels fixing their make up!!! Wow.

Coming back to my form of femininity being "over the top" by the lesbian community here when it was "normal" in London has been a very long adjustment indeed. And yet, at school, my class mates thought I was "butch" when I outed myself (that "bad femininity" again manifesting and being read as "masculine")

That was interesting though. For a year at school being read as a butch dyke. My friends wet themselves thinking of me as butch. Heh.

Odd read though. And rather telling.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: pure evil on Dec 18, 2014, 11:14:19 AM
Femme, to me, has always been "fuck you" femininity. Femininity on its own terms, its own design, its own creation.

Fat femininity, loud femininity, swearing like a sailor femininity, angry femininity, femininity with a loud dirty laugh, femininity that loves sex, that kisses and tells.

Words to live by doll  ;D *edit* don't know what that cheesey delighted smile is doing there, I wanted a far more knowing and carnivorous looking emoticon*  xxx
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Bizoute on Dec 21, 2014, 11:09:15 PM

LOL re cupcake. The reason I chose imperfectcupcake as a name is the idea of a "messed up" or "messy" cupcake, a "fuck you" cupcake. Imperfect femininity, femininity as in fuck you. Femme, to me, has always been "fuck you" femininity. Femininity on its own terms, its own design, its own creation. I actually can't stand cupcakes and hated the twee explosion of them. To my mind it was symbol of what was expected of femininity - being cute, small and perfect. To eat in one bite. Limited. Restricted to a tiny space.



See, I have an ongoing issue (maybe less so these days) of feeling like I do get perceived as ... kind of like a cupcake. Well, not a cupcake, really, obviously.  :P But that kind of idea. People seem to tell me a lot how 'sweet' I am - generally people not people who know me really well. And even though I know it's intended as a compliment (there are worse things to be called,) it always feels a bit reductive to me.

At the end of an acting course I did (the acting teacher was/is really big on people claiming their Shadow, so by that point I kind of felt like I was down to the core of myself,) we did some quick monologues as an exercise. I gave one on how much I hate being called 'sweet.'  At some point in it, I started a sentence with 'And it's not that I'm not sweet...' (something like that) and my acting teacher shot me a pointed "I don't believe you" look. That kind of clinched that one for me. I'm not sweet. But I'd been slightly hanging on to that notion of myself, I guess, because there's a kind of safety in projecting that out. It's very unthreatening.

(Then a few weeks later, I was chatting to a woman after a dance class and she referred to something about me as "sweet." A friend from acting overhead and said, with mucho gravity "Don't Call Bizoute Sweet.")

In my own head, my femininity (whatever word) is kind of ... toothy and a bit raw, a bit animal/a lot animal. However my last housemate once turned to me and randomly told me "You have this little girl fairy butterfly quality about you" (I don't remember if there was a context). And I do see this too. And it seems okay. Except when people are perceiving me only in terms of that kind of floaty femininity, because then I feel pushed into a box of what society wants 'feminine' to be. 
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: MzB on Dec 21, 2014, 11:50:34 PM
Maybe if femininity is perceived as 'sweet', it is about nourishing other people, in a compliant way? Being a human cupcake?

Whereas what imperfectcupcake is pointing at is something which is there in and of itself, for itself? Something more autonomous and powerful.

I don't know. I do know that when I was doing a women's sexuality course in West Hampstead a good few years ago, we were asked to bring food which represented our sexuality for the final session, and all the women brought cakes and sweet things and chocolate and wore floaty dresses and heels.

Whereas I brought a slimy black mushroom dish made with sherry, and wore leather trousers, big boots and a black halterneck spandex dress. (I may have told that story before, if so, apologies for repetition).

From what you are saying, Biz, about your acting class it sounds as though it is about owning your strength, and for that not to be threatening to you. Others, who expect cupcakes and sweetness, may find it threatening. But you have to be prepared to live with that.

Or something. 



Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Bizoute on Dec 22, 2014, 12:00:49 AM
^I think you're onto something. In all regards.

And I like your story.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: pure evil on Dec 22, 2014, 12:09:42 AM
....... when I was doing a women's sexuality course in West Hampstead a good few years ago, and we were asked to bring food which represented our sexuality for the final session, and all the women brought cakes and sweet things and chocolate and wore floaty dresses and heels.

Whereas I brought a slimy black mushroom dish made with sherry, and wore leather trousers, big boots and a black halterneck spandex dress. (I may have told that story before, if so, apologies for repetition).

Well I'm glad you did tell it again as I had never heard it. I'm now wracking my brain to think of what dish I would bring. (good vault thread).

@Bizzy Making Latkes (BRB) with perceptions, I feel people can read 'face value' as a matter of their own convenience or limitations. I tend to have to impress quite the opposite of the cupcake thing ie: that I have vulnerabilities, although I don't think it's difficult to see that. I often wonder why people have a difficulty percieving complexity.... I mean what human is not complex?




Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: MzB on Dec 22, 2014, 12:33:46 AM
But then again, 'sugar' is sexual, too, in a way that I like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbKlvWvpD2g

And I wonder if there is something about being an 'outlaw' in what imperfectcupcake is trying to articulate. There's an interesting article here about 50s butch and femme as 'badass': http://www.autostraddle.com/six-ways-that-1950s-butches-and-femmes-fucked-with-society-were-badass-140167/

And the femme part of that outlaw couple can be fierce.

As well as needing a sugar Daddy, sometimes.





Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: imperfectcupcake on Dec 22, 2014, 01:57:43 AM
Well that's kind of what I was pointing to, the dichotomy (not to me, but to many others) of stereotypical (as bad) and fierce (as bad). When I found the term femme, it gave me the space to deconstruct and rebuild my femininity as my own. Not according to anyone else.

Femininity that isn't seen as sweet, vulnerable, with emotional softness is often seen as a frightening and intimidating thing. You are either a fluffy and warm creature meant to please others by your nurturing and sparking presence or you are a femme fatal sent by Lilith to temp, use, and destroy. I love being a two dimensional characature of a gender, it pleases me to no end. Indeed PE, the lack of capacity to see complexity is very irritating and, frankly, isolating.

It's often why I try and make a joke with people these days when I meet them from off the net and they ask what to call me "I prefer the name 'sparkle cunt, really'" with a big warm smile to just try and get rid of both those notions as soon as possible.

And yes, as fierce as I can be at times, it's nice to have one person (a Daddy dyke would be fantastic  :D) that I can be that vulnerable giggling girl around (and my close friends of course - but not quite in the same way, and not quite to the same extent....) Otherwise the boot leather shell gets a bit exhausting.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Bizoute on Dec 22, 2014, 08:51:12 AM



@Bizzy Making Latkes (BRB) with perceptions, I feel people can read 'face value' as a matter of their own convenience or limitations. I tend to have to impress quite the opposite of the cupcake thing ie: that I have vulnerabilities, although I don't think it's difficult to see that. I often wonder why people have a difficulty percieving complexity.... I mean what human is not complex?

Yeah...this repeatedly throws me in general. As far as I know I don't tend to read people or things on a surface level (I mean, maybe I do sometimes without realising it, but not as a general rule). So it always surprises me to discover quite often other people do.

I sometimes get the flipside of feeling like I'm being perceived as a cupcake, too - I also sometimes seem to get read as having no vulnerabilities. (A couple of friends mentioned at different points they don't see me as at all vulnerable). I think what they meant is that I'm independent and self-contained. But clearly that doesn't mean "I have no vulnerablities." Everyone does.


Femininity that isn't seen as sweet, vulnerable, with emotional softness is often seen as a frightening and intimidating thing. You are either a fluffy and warm creature meant to please others by your nurturing and sparking presence or you are a femme fatal sent by Lilith to temp, use, and destroy.


Yeah. It's all throwbacks to living in a world that sets things up into binaries and dualistic blah, no?
 
Actually, the other thing I noticed via acting was how taboo it feels for me to ever be unfriendly. So, definitely I've swallowed some conditioning around that.

And re: the femininity being read as fluffy vs. Lilith-y: even Lilith probably had a nurturing side. She had a whole slew of hybrid serpent baby-creatures to raise. But more seriously, I think it's a problem of reducing people to the roles we mentally allocate them or seeing them as archetypes. No-one is actually an archetype.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: pure evil on Dec 22, 2014, 02:38:00 PM
How deeply rooted sexism is constantly suprises me...despite spending a lifetime examining and fighting this stuff. My gendered and sexual identity doesn't fit into a neat definition, I've questioned whether 'female' can adequately encompass my own definition of how I see myself and instead describe myself as 'genderqueer'. Yet time and again I observe myself doing things I would describe as stereotypically 'female' behaviour: 'trying to be good' at some deep underlying level seems to be one of these, as does taking too much responsibility in relationships, attempting to practice 'nurture' above and beyond. Those moments of recognizing how instilled some of that conditioning is produces the greatest dissonance of all.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: MzB on Dec 22, 2014, 03:30:13 PM
No-one is actually an archetype.

But it's fun to play with them, sometimes.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: MzB on Dec 22, 2014, 03:35:13 PM
Yet time and again I observe myself doing things I would describe as stereotypically 'female' behaviour: 'trying to be good' at some deep underlying level seems to be one of these, as does taking too much responsibility in relationships, attempting to practice 'nurture' above and beyond. Those moments of recognizing how instilled some of that conditioning is produces the greatest dissonance of all.

But isn't 'trying to be good' a gender-free aspiration? Or rather, I think it should be.

As for taking too much responsibility in relationships, or practising 'nurture' above and beyond, we live in an effed up and unbalanced world. Which makes these tendencies something to recognise, but not to take full responsibility for. As long as we also continue to fight to prevent the eff ups, and redress the balance.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Bizoute on Dec 22, 2014, 03:55:50 PM
No-one is actually an archetype.

But it's fun to play with them, sometimes.

Yes. But there's every difference in the world between consciously playing with a concept and actually believing you are it, huh? I feel like that's not that well worded. I've just noticed that some people can get quite rigid around archetypes, and it's something I have to check in myself. (I read Tarot and I work quite a lot with myth and fairy tale in my writing, so I am engaging with archetypes, but I try to make them my own, as opposed to getting restricted by them). A while back, a storyteller I like - super down to earth woman - commented to me she's actually not crazy on either Joseph Campbell and Clarissa Pinkola Estes. (Who are both quite archetype-heavy). I like both of them, but her take on archetypes was: sure, work with them, but don't get too hung on them was quite refreshing to me.

That's a bit of a digression.

I do think the whole 'trying to be good' role is one that particularly gets allocated to women. I did some Bio Energetics a few years ago (working with physical strength and stuff to let go of emotional blocks) as part of some inner child work. We were working on unconscious childhood contracts we'd all forged with parents/parental figures. I think most of the women in the room (mixed group) had stuff around being 'good.' When I unpicked mine, a lot of it was around trying to be 'good,' quiet, pretty, etc. All constructed femininity sort of stuff. A friend turned to me after I'd gone through mine and asked: "Like a doll?"

Then we got given hockey sticks and things to 'kill' our lists. (It was all done very safely).
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Bizoute on Dec 22, 2014, 03:59:37 PM

But isn't 'trying to be good' a gender-free aspiration? Or rather, I think it should be.



And p.s. for this, I think it depends what one means by 'good.' As a word, it feels quite loaded to me. Personally, I have the feeling I'd rather aspire to be ethical and ... just myself and considerate of others, without necessarily trying to be pleasing to everyone. Maybe it's my own stuff/associations, but trying to be 'good' makes me think of trying to be pleasing to everyone.  Which is a non-starter.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: MzB on Dec 22, 2014, 04:00:07 PM
I do think the whole 'trying to be good' role is one that particularly gets allocated to women.

And the argument always runs, "well someone has to do it".

I suppose the problem is with essentialism, and the extent to which women's roles are culturally allocated, and how far material circumstances reinforce that.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: MzB on Dec 22, 2014, 04:01:34 PM

But isn't 'trying to be good' a gender-free aspiration? Or rather, I think it should be.



And p.s. for this, I think it depends what one means by 'good.' As a word, it feels quite loaded to me. Personally, I have the feeling I'd rather aspire to be ethical and ... just myself and considerate of others, without necessarily trying to be pleasing to everyone. Maybe it's my own stuff/associations, but trying to be 'good' makes me think of trying to be pleasing to everyone.  Which is a non-starter.

For me, I think pleasing and good are different things really. But I do find it difficult to engage with conflict in an easy way, sometimes.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Bizoute on Dec 22, 2014, 04:10:05 PM
I reckon essentialism is incredibly difficult, because it can be insidious, and as PE points out, sexism is deep-rooted. And it's a trap I can still fall into, but I tend to figure the saving grace is at least I'm aware of it. The 'good' thing may be semantic. I struggle with conflict. I'm not entirely conflict-averse. Sometimes if something needs saying, it needs saying and I tend to get on with it. But I don't find it especially easy.

I like this thread.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: pure evil on Dec 22, 2014, 04:33:21 PM
Yet time and again I observe myself doing things I would describe as stereotypically 'female' behaviour: 'trying to be good' at some deep underlying level seems to be one of these, as does taking too much responsibility in relationships, attempting to practice 'nurture' above and beyond. Those moments of recognizing how instilled some of that conditioning is produces the greatest dissonance of all.

But isn't 'trying to be good' a gender-free aspiration? Or rather, I think it should be.

I meant it in the sense of internalising the message 'be a good girl', which is not something I aspire to.
What I was trying to get at is that no matter how much I develop a genderqueer identity or challenge sexism, in the most part society does not reflect that back, nor does my previous conditioning or lived experience disappear.

Even within the queer world the level of recognition of complex identities is limited, still affected by unacknowledged structural inequality. Time and again I have seen 'new and improved essentialisms' appear, which are supposed to transcend earlier ways of thinking. Of course these new essentialisms are usually described as 'free' from the old issues... *sigh*





 
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: MzB on Dec 22, 2014, 04:56:12 PM
Even within the queer world the level of recognition of complex identities is limited, still affected by unacknowledged structural inequality. Time and again I have seen 'new and improved essentialisms' appear, which are supposed to transcend earlier ways of thinking. Of course these new essentialisms are usually described as 'free' from the old issues... *sigh*

Well, it's a dynamic process. And we can all get stuck. I think recognising this...

nor does my previous conditioning or lived experience disappear.

... is useful and important.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: pure evil on Dec 22, 2014, 05:02:36 PM
Having observed that 'dynamic process' for at least 3 decades I have to say I feel a little bit bored by the repetition. 
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: MzB on Dec 22, 2014, 05:10:38 PM
And I still think my navel-fluff is pretty!

I thought this was interesting:
http://www.elephantjournal.com/2014/12/your-parents-really-did-a-number-on-you-how-to-break-the-pattern/
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Bizoute on Dec 22, 2014, 05:18:33 PM
^The ideas in that piece feel not disconnected from Family Constellation work. (But FCs work around the idea of ancestral patterns we're still playing out).

Or possibly I do ancestral work to take my navel gazing to a whole new level of meta.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: pure evil on Dec 22, 2014, 06:23:29 PM
If any one fancies reading a femme manifesto I wrote a while back or a link to a film of the same feel free to PM me.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: imperfectcupcake on Dec 22, 2014, 08:09:24 PM
I LOVE THIS THREAD! *glitter*

It's been simply ages since I've had a critical thinking thread. Xxx

I know go back to finish reading.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: MzB on Dec 22, 2014, 08:30:01 PM
Even within the queer world the level of recognition of complex identities is limited, still affected by unacknowledged structural inequality. Time and again I have seen 'new and improved essentialisms' appear, which are supposed to transcend earlier ways of thinking. Of course these new essentialisms are usually described as 'free' from the old issues... *sigh*

But surely the whole point is to go beyond the binary? I guess transgression is a long and winding road!

And are we talking structural inequality, or sexism specifically?
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: imperfectcupcake on Dec 22, 2014, 08:31:21 PM
Quote
When I unpicked mine, a lot of it was around trying to be 'good,' quiet, pretty, etc. All constructed femininity sort of stuff. A friend turned to me after I'd gone through mine and asked: "Like a doll?"

*que horror music*
I get that, I personally have a desire to be a doll, intensely. I was in complete awe of the really feminine girls in Kaula Lumpur, especially the Thais "Dee" (like our femme) - seeing them made me feel deeply excited about being so smooth and fancy and quiet and composed. They were stunning in their performance of it. Immaculate. They even had little 3D sculptures on their nails. I had one girl do my nails and I just sat in quite awe of her construct.

Lol kind of an odd thing "I am in awe of your construct" - I wonder if that would work as a pick up line.

But there is just no way my personality would ever allow for it. I have very little capacity to do it. Probably why I fetishise it and enjoy being it in a game. I find kink queers a lot of stuff for me gives be places to play with and bend internalized allsorts. I love using it to muck around with dark aspects of self and give them some air. Channel them in a safe environment - I suppose this is kind of tantric concept of kink. You delve into things to transform them, rather than avoid.

I can't say this works for my love of crisps or cheese, however.

And I still think my navel-fluff is pretty!

I thought this was interesting:
http://www.elephantjournal.com/2014/12/your-parents-really-did-a-number-on-you-how-to-break-the-pattern/

I saw that on FB this morning and book marked to read it, so kind of cool to see it here.

Your navel fluff has a wonderful quaff.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: MzB on Dec 22, 2014, 08:37:55 PM
Lol kind of an odd thing "I am in awe of your construct" - I wonder if that would work as a pick up line.

Well it would work for me!
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: imperfectcupcake on Dec 22, 2014, 08:51:30 PM
<tangent contemplation>I get strange awe of kinds of femininity even though my social politics scream in pain over it. For example Countess Dowager, Violet, of Downton Abby I just want to be her pet, and purr on her a lot.

Fetishisation for certain, I think. I used to get confused when I was younger and not know if I wanted to have sex with them or be them. I now know I just want to absorb them and revere them a bit.
My girl brain that loves glitter and butterflies and tea parties with stuffed animals loves it. My politically framed critical thinking brain is horrified. I think this is where femme (and kink) give me space to run both software programs on my hardware at the same time.

Identity and gender workspace that also has a slide and a rope swing. </thinking aloud>

Lol kind of an odd thing "I am in awe of your construct" - I wonder if that would work as a pick up line.

Well it would work for me!

*mental note*
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Bizoute on Dec 22, 2014, 10:13:49 PM
Quote
When I unpicked mine, a lot of it was around trying to be 'good,' quiet, pretty, etc. All constructed femininity sort of stuff. A friend turned to me after I'd gone through mine and asked: "Like a doll?"

*que horror music*
I get that, I personally have a desire to be a doll, intensely. I was in complete awe of the really feminine girls in Kaula Lumpur, especially the Thais "Dee" (like our femme) - seeing them made me feel deeply excited about being so smooth and fancy and quiet and composed. They were stunning in their performance of it. Immaculate. They even had little 3D sculptures on their nails. I had one girl do my nails and I just sat in quite awe of her construct.

Lol kind of an odd thing "I am in awe of your construct" - I wonder if that would work as a pick up line.

But there is just no way my personality would ever allow for it. I have very little capacity to do it. Probably why I fetishise it and enjoy being it in a game. I find kink queers a lot of stuff for me gives be places to play with and bend internalized allsorts. I love using it to muck around with dark aspects of self and give them some air. Channel them in a safe environment - I suppose this is kind of tantric concept of kink. You delve into things to transform them, rather than avoid.

I can't say this works for my love of crisps or cheese, however.


Yeah...I hear you on some of those counts. Though I suppose I might admire a Gothic Lolita's style (cos it's fab) but it's not necessarily something I'd want to emulate. Though that's probably mostly because I'm a bit lazy.

I think kink can be quite a good space for playing around with precisely the kind of things that could be a bit of a nightmare in day to day life. Because it becomes a safe space and one has control in choosing it and that control makes every difference in the world.
.
In life my policy is sometimes to run at exactly what scares me most. But it's considered. I only do it for things that I feel will be beneficial and help me grow. Some things I fear, I feel it's fine to leave well alone. And if it comes up in conversation some of the more random things I've done (nothing to do with kink. Just life stuff) I find people either get it entirely or ... they don't.

A lot of the stuff I find most uncomfortable tends to be the stuff I need to look right in the face. (There are exceptions). And quite often people say: "Oh, I could never do that!" And what they mean is: "I don't want to do that." Which is completely fine, no-one's going to make them; I'm just sharing my experience. But the difference is quite big between someone not wanting to do something and believing they're incapable of it. So yeah, I'm quite with the idea of delving into some concepts to transform them. Plus, at that point you tend to get power over what scares or horrifies you, rather than it holding power over you.

Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: MzB on Dec 23, 2014, 12:22:57 AM
Identity and gender workspace that also has a slide and a rope swing.

And lots of picture books.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: pure evil on Dec 23, 2014, 01:36:34 AM
Lol kind of an odd thing "I am in awe of your construct" - I wonder if that would work as a pick up line.

Well it would work for me!

Yes! oh finally, properly seen!!
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: pure evil on Dec 23, 2014, 01:39:07 AM
Even within the queer world the level of recognition of complex identities is limited, still affected by unacknowledged structural inequality. Time and again I have seen 'new and improved essentialisms' appear, which are supposed to transcend earlier ways of thinking. Of course these new essentialisms are usually described as 'free' from the old issues... *sigh*

But surely the whole point is to go beyond the binary? I guess transgression is a long and winding road!

And are we talking structural inequality, or sexism specifically?

I was originally talking about sexism in particular, but in the later post....all.of.it.

I feel like one of the best things that can happen is that all of those clashes and collisions become more acknowledged.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: MzB on Dec 23, 2014, 02:06:15 AM
I feel like one of the best things that can happen is that all of those clashes and collisions become more acknowledged.

Yes. And at the same time, there are some essential things which get lost in essentialism.

Genderqueer femme... now that's interesting.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: pure evil on Dec 23, 2014, 02:19:15 AM
I feel like one of the best things that can happen is that all of those clashes and collisions become more acknowledged.

Yes. And at the same time, there are some essential things which get lost in essentialism.

???

what I'm talking about is an active dissolution of any possibility of essentialism.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: MzB on Dec 23, 2014, 02:22:40 AM
I feel like one of the best things that can happen is that all of those clashes and collisions become more acknowledged.

Yes. And at the same time, there are some essential things which get lost in essentialism.

???

what I'm talking about is an active dissolution of any possibility of essentialism.

Precisely.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: imperfectcupcake on Dec 23, 2014, 08:59:23 AM
I feel like one of the best things that can happen is that all of those clashes and collisions become more acknowledged.

Yes. And at the same time, there are some essential things which get lost in essentialism.

Genderqueer femme... now that's interesting.

It's rather why several of my femme mates in North America do consider femme-as-gender part of  genderqueer. Which is also scoffed at because being femme and XX makes us cis female. But sex and gender are different. No one can know what's going on in someone's performative head walking down the street. Another way to be invisible.

But to suggest it does have people pissy about it. Mostly because I don't suffer some of the same bigotry as those who don't pass for cis. They have a point. But then I also don't feel that I get police the word femme. All I know is my take on it, for me. The ID has many meanings to many different people. Just because someone else is femme does not auto-mean I have anything in common with them, including the way I present it as a gender. Just like the way I do woman, is going to be vastly different than my exwife.

So what is the point of the ID is there is no agreed meaning? I dunno, mothers come in all shapes and sizes, and have different relationships to daughters, they don't even have to give birth to them to be mothers. Some mothers are present and some are not. So what is the point of calling someone mother then, if it's not immediately understood.

I think that's why people started ID hair splitting in the states. But I personally can't get on that wagon. I don't want to. I do miss umbrella terms where there is lots of room. Femme was a lot roomier in London, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: pure evil on Dec 23, 2014, 10:27:11 AM
I feel like one of the best things that can happen is that all of those clashes and collisions become more acknowledged.

Yes. And at the same time, there are some essential things which get lost in essentialism.

Genderqueer femme... now that's interesting.

It's rather why several of my femme mates in North America do consider femme-as-gender part of  genderqueer. Which is also scoffed at because being femme and XX makes us cis female. But sex and gender are different. No one can know what's going on in someone's performative head walking down the street. Another way to be invisible.

For me it's more to do with how I relate to my body map/a disjunction between what I see and what I feel. 
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: MzB on Dec 23, 2014, 12:37:22 PM
Hm. I have been toying about with the question of what cabaret persona I would want to be, recently. Quite hypothetically (almost).

And have realised that I would probably have to be a drag queen, because that would make me a (cis) woman, performing a woman who is a (cis) man.

But would I be read as a drag queen? It would have to be a very skilled performance.

This reminds me that I am pretty certain that I have been read, more than once, as mtf transgendered (or transsexual??) by transgendered/transsexual women. It has happened twice, at Pride, when they have seen me from a distance. And I think because of my stature and height (around six three in heels), and breasts, and hair, and make up and heels and probably a feather boa and a tiara - and above all, my gestural expression, I have been read as transgendered/transsexual. But when they have then come up closer, they realise that I am.... femme. And they seem to be annoyed about it! Either annoyed at themselves for miscategorising me, or at me for not being who I appear to be? I don't know.

Or another cabaret challenge would be to ask myself how could I craft a persona, or set of personas, which included so many genders that it broke all the binaries.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: imperfectcupcake on Dec 23, 2014, 01:04:57 PM
I feel like one of the best things that can happen is that all of those clashes and collisions become more acknowledged.

Yes. And at the same time, there are some essential things which get lost in essentialism.

Genderqueer femme... now that's interesting.

It's rather why several of my femme mates in North America do consider femme-as-gender part of  genderqueer. Which is also scoffed at because being femme and XX makes us cis female. But sex and gender are different. No one can know what's going on in someone's performative head walking down the street. Another way to be invisible.

Is it something like Star Dust?

For me it's more to do with how I relate to my body map/a disjunction between what I see and what I feel.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: pure evil on Dec 23, 2014, 01:11:39 PM
Is it something like Star Dust?


 ;D a little bit! Tho the time I experimented with taking 'T' to see if I could adjust some of that physically misrepresented/off-kilter feeling, I realised I couldn't choose which effects would manifest  and I didn't want a hairy chest.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: imperfectcupcake on Dec 23, 2014, 07:21:56 PM
Is it something like Star Dust?


 ;D a little bit!

:D *swoon*

Quote

Tho the time I experimented with taking 'T' to see if I could adjust some of that physically misrepresented/off-kilter feeling, I realised I couldn't choose which effects would manifest  and I didn't want a hairy chest.


Eurgh. Fair enough. Though with your frame and facial boning, not only are you pretty, but you'd be a handsome bugger on T as well as pretty and striking. Actually, you rather have a handsome cut to your jib anyway. 

Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: imperfectcupcake on Dec 23, 2014, 07:33:32 PM
<aside thought>> they used to call a certain type of striking gals handsome. I thought it was rather apt. It's a shame they don't use it anymore. Nefertiti was called handsome in some descriptions, when they discovered her likeness in art, which I recall thinking was incredibly true.

I wonder why they don't use that word anymore?
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: pure evil on Dec 23, 2014, 07:57:42 PM
Is it something like Star Dust?


 ;D a little bit!

:D *swoon*

Quote

Tho the time I experimented with taking 'T' to see if I could adjust some of that physically misrepresented/off-kilter feeling, I realised I couldn't choose which effects would manifest  and I didn't want a hairy chest.


Eurgh. Fair enough. Though with your frame and facial boning, not only are you pretty, but you'd be a handsome bugger on T as well as pretty and striking. Actually, you rather have a handsome cut to your jib anyway.

why thank you... *flicks switch blade*  ;)

yeah my body did some other instant response stuff  - which gave me pause for thought.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: pure evil on Dec 23, 2014, 08:01:13 PM
<aside thought>> they used to call a certain type of striking gals handsome. I thought it was rather apt. It's a shame they don't use it anymore. Nefertiti was called handsome in some descriptions, when they discovered her likeness in art, which I recall thinking was incredibly true.

I wonder why they don't use that word anymore?

I'm sure I've heard older guys especially use that expression 'a very handsome woman'. Makes me think of Bacall.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Bizoute on Dec 23, 2014, 08:14:02 PM
<aside thought>> they used to call a certain type of striking gals handsome. I thought it was rather apt. It's a shame they don't use it anymore. Nefertiti was called handsome in some descriptions, when they discovered her likeness in art, which I recall thinking was incredibly true.

I wonder why they don't use that word anymore?

I like it. Virginia Woolf was quite handsome.

You know who does use that word? VV/Charlotte Mew. (I remember her calling my grandma 'handsome' once. She's right. She was). It's a shame we can't lure her back to GB. But I think she quit for good.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: pure evil on Dec 23, 2014, 08:18:20 PM
VV/Charlotte Mew. (I remember her calling my grandma 'handsome' once. She's right. She was). It's a shame we can't lure her back to GB. But I think she quit for good.

That is a shame, I love her femme stories.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Blythe on Dec 23, 2014, 08:26:48 PM
Lots of people still use the word handsome to describe women.  My birth Mother for one.
It hasn't gone out of fashion .... It is perhaps confined to literary types.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Bizoute on Dec 23, 2014, 10:03:19 PM
^I think it is quite generational, the way some words are.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: MzB on Dec 23, 2014, 10:07:44 PM
I think the fact that it isn't used so often is probably because of what the beauty industry tells us 'good looking' women look like. I do wonder how far it would be taken as a compliment by women in general / straight women.

Handsome (butch) women do it for me, but this is a different kind of handsome. Femmsome?
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: outoforder on Dec 23, 2014, 10:19:30 PM
I think handsome is a lovely word for women.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: imperfectcupcake on Dec 24, 2014, 01:15:35 AM
Yes. A handsome butch is a different handsome. But I also use beautiful and cute for butch and it's a different beautiful and cute than what I mean when saying it to a feminine person.

Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Chewwy on Dec 24, 2014, 01:18:33 AM
I use the term 'handsome' to describe a quarter pounder with cheese, or anything especially nice.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: MzB on Dec 24, 2014, 01:19:54 AM
You are well andsome then, Chewwy  :-*
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Chewwy on Dec 24, 2014, 01:41:48 AM
You are well andsome then, Chewwy  :-*

Precisely... it's 'andsome.   :D

And thank you Mzbauble. x
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Grey on Dec 24, 2014, 09:25:19 PM
VV/Charlotte Mew. (I remember her calling my grandma 'handsome' once. She's right. She was). It's a shame we can't lure her back to GB. But I think she quit for good.

That is a shame, I love her femme stories.

Yes
Femme stories of that particular cusp in time
She does have them!
I miss the generational stories my generation and I miss her on here
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Bizoute on Dec 24, 2014, 10:14:16 PM
^Yeah. She has good stories.

Stories are underrated.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Stevie on Jan 31, 2015, 10:38:25 PM
I have a butch/femme page on fb with nearly 6000 members ❤️


It's homely 😄
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: PushingThru on Feb 01, 2015, 01:45:46 AM
No wonder you've been quiet Stevie ;) that's quite an achievement :D
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Stevie on Feb 25, 2015, 10:55:08 PM
Well yes I've worked hard and have a great admin team  ;)
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: mint on Feb 27, 2015, 01:46:37 PM
People make assumptions based on appearance even if they try not to. I don't know if it's some inbuilt protection/survival mechanism from way back when that's generalised out and not easy to over-ride. It probably has some value, somewhere, although maybe less so in modern life. Obviously doesn't apply in this context.

The comments that irritate me slightly are the "you don't look like the kind of person who'd be into e.g. sport".

Maybe I don't look like the typical person who lifts weights or whatever, but that's not really the point. I do things because I enjoy them and various other reasons (in that case to be strong, to look after my body) - where does looking like someone who does X Y or Z come into it? Why's it about appearance? (Maybe weights were a bad example to pick here as it can and will change your appearance, but what I mean is why's the first comment relating to appearance?). You don't look like the kind of person who does that - there are a million other things that could be discussed. Why's it relevant?

I find femme such a loaded term. There are places where I've felt like a minority within a minority - tourist, you're not a lesbian, blahdeblah. But then I get the advantages (shouldn't be an advantage, but hey ho) of not encountering discrimination in the street.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Stevie on Feb 27, 2015, 02:06:06 PM
And internal homophobia from within the lesbian community also ..
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: ella on Feb 27, 2015, 02:49:15 PM
^ exactly! 
Hey stevie :D
I'm more invisible than ever...tis exhausting  :'(
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Contemporary Mistress on Feb 28, 2015, 02:37:42 PM
I joined a group that specifically aims to combat the invisibility some women feel. They decided to make it invite only because before they did, they wound up with a bunch of guys who'd set up profiles with women's photos attempting to join and they got hacked off about it.

It's not as bad in London because obviously there is a bigger lesbian population, but it's still tricky in places which are mixed gay/lesbian (cos we get pegged as straight women mates with gay men) or places like SBS where occasionally lesbians assume you've wandered over to the lezzers by accident.

I have been known to throw utter tantrums on the subject. laziest way to reduce invisibility is to dress down and hang around with either extremely well known lesbians who can confirm your identity to passers by or to bedeck yourself in lesbian symbols (I had an array of earrings and bangles at one point)
  lesbian  bars  lol,  always  try  them.  I'm  sure  I've  been  both  victim  and  perpetrator  of  this.  could  do  the  opposite  of the  people  who  go  around  thinking  everyones  str8  and  think  everyones  gay   :P  it's  just  as  bad  in  london  by  the  way.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Jaques on Mar 10, 2015, 08:55:21 AM
I have a butch/femme page on fb with nearly 6000 members ❤️


It's homely 😄

....................is this the butchfemmetransguy site? 
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Twin on Apr 15, 2015, 02:25:36 PM
The invisibility is terrible. I feel like wearing a tee that says "your gaydar is right" or something. I'm feminine, although not to the extreme. Long hair, no shaved parts on my head, casual outfits...and I'm a mom. I'm an undercover lesbian :/
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Musette on May 11, 2015, 11:51:29 PM
^ this.

I met a young woman today whom I have no doubt is gay. I have equally no doubt that she would never guess that I am.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: nismat on May 12, 2015, 05:58:13 PM
The invisibility is terrible. I feel like wearing a tee that says "your gaydar is right" or something. I'm feminine, although not to the extreme. Long hair, no shaved parts on my head, casual outfits...and I'm a mom. I'm an undercover lesbian :/

Then you need one of the T-shirts in this link! (Another undercover-straight-looking mum lesbian checking in)
No.19 is especially hilarious  ;D
http://www.buzzfeed.com/skarlan/all-i-got-was-this-lousy-shirt#.mnEzP0dom
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: pure evil on May 12, 2015, 06:25:49 PM
^^^^ :D loved 'when do I get my free toaster?'
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Parnell on Jul 06, 2015, 11:01:57 AM
Im a 1940s/50s dressing femme single Mum living outside of London. I wear dresses and red lipstick, sport a fresh pincurl set every other day and generally stand out from the crowd due to my attire.
Yet I couldn't be more invisible to those I may wish to meet!
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Stevie on Aug 07, 2015, 08:07:55 PM
^ 💟 this ... Be true 👍🏻
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: lil_moomin on Feb 24, 2016, 12:28:54 PM
For some reason I was thinking about this in the car this morning and I remembered something that happened a while ago.

Last year I went to SBS with a friend in April or so, and it was held in a pub somewhere near Holborn if I remember rightly... it had moved. Anyway, the pub was "open to all" before a set cut off time like 7 and then after it was just meant to be for the event. We arrived a bit before then and I went to the bar to try to order food for both of us for an evening meal. The guy behind the bar said he was sorry but they weren't doing food now and he couldn't take my order, so I went back to my friend and she looked a bit surprised and said she was sure that wasn't right! So she went up to the bar and came back and said she had ordered our two meals.

It turns out what happened was that they were only serving food to people who were staying after the cut off time and they assumed I wasn't a lesbian, so they didn't take my order.

It would've been easier if they had just ASKED if I was staying for the event rather than just presuming something.

I found it more weird they'd just assumed rather than anything about my appearance
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Stevie on Apr 14, 2016, 11:08:52 AM
Ugh .. Right !

Easier to just ask ..
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Vickilipstick on Mar 06, 2017, 01:19:52 PM
I know this thread is old, but crikey Mint! That is bad!!!

Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: lil_moomin on Mar 21, 2017, 04:35:43 PM
Just weird, more than anything, that they wouldn't say "are you staying for the event?" which would take about two seconds. Anyway, hopefully after that the person in question actually asked people rather than guessing.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Xof the Elder on Apr 09, 2017, 10:03:07 PM
How do you cope with being invisible ? I have some femme friends who hate this as it really frustrates them.

Invisible femmes - are they with me now? I feel like they are.. creepy little invisible femmes, 5ft tall with horn-rim glasses, all wanting to listen to Bjork and dress me like Ellen. *shudder*

I KNOW YOU'RE THERE CREEPY INVISIBLE FEMMES. YOU LEAVE YOUR HAIR EVERYWHERE.
Title: Re: Femme invisibility
Post by: Parnell on Jul 31, 2017, 08:35:34 PM

                     *Tousles hair at XOF!*